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Bad FTF problem!!!


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#1 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:25 PM

Well I went to the range today hoping for the some improvements in my FTE problem. Well I have that figured out. I also got a handful of FTFs the first time out so I figured I would also try to address those as well, so I followed the directions in the following pdf in the "How to polish your bolt" thread (http://forum.saiga-1...attach_id=40501). Well now my FTF problems are 10x worse. Here is a picture of what is happening. The shell is getting caught on the way in, and because this wasnt happening before, I can only assume the change I made is the cause. Below are pics of my feed ramp, and what a shell that is failing to chamber looks like. Hoping for some help here because this is a big problem with some shells. Federal appears to handle this better than the others, but perhaps its jsut because the kind of plastic they use doesnt tend to get caught up as easy.. not sure. Remington is HORRIBLE....seems to FTF almost every round.

Here is my feed ramp...

Posted Image

And what a FTF looks like:

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What the shell looks like that FTFd. You can see how the shell is deformed

Posted Image

WHAT THE FUCK IS CAUSING THIS!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

#2 Bridis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:29 PM

I notice that you have an MD drum there. Have you tried adjusting the tension of the drum spring?

#3 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:34 PM

Making it tighter? or Looser? No I have not, but I do think the problem is worse with the drum than it is the stock mag. I dont know if its too much or too little pressure. It seems to me the back of the shell is not popping up enough or something. Because when I take the magazine off and put a tiny bit of pressure to the bottom/rear of the shell it pops right in. Perhaps I should get a shot with the mag removed with the shell stuck

#4 Bridis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:42 PM

I've never had an issue with any of my drums, so I'm not sure exactly what you need to do. You could most likely do a forum search or maybe check MD Arms site for the information.

#5 Yeoldetool

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:49 PM

Try the factory mag.
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#6 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 06:55 PM

Try the factory mag.

What he ^ said.
Also, only use ammo your gun likes. Stay far away from the cheapo low brass crap, especially winchester.


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#7 Bridis

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:21 PM

The drums are known to benefit from a correctly polished & profiled bolt, but I think you said that's been addressed.


Correctly could be the key word here, since we haven't seen pictures of his bolt and carrier. ;)

#8 locolobo1234

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:25 PM

I noticed that in the first photo there was some debris.

Also like everybody says try some better quality ammo. WalMart sells some 00 buck for less than $10.00 for 15 rounds. And you don't like that try Wolf 00 buck. It uses a cap instead of folding the end of the plastic sides. This making a used case shorter and easier to eject.

I don't believe everything in this web page, but it's got some good photo's.
http://www.theboxotr.../docs/edu91.htm

Hope that helps, good luck.

#9 Rangerguy

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:29 PM

Do you have a reduced recoil spring installed?

#10 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:30 PM

The debris is from the 150 shells I just shot today. The bolt,carrier have not been profiled, just polished. My bud just sent his to pauly so I will likely try to profile it like his when it gets back...out pony up the $$ :P

#11 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 07:45 PM

stock spring

#12 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:27 PM

Well I just took another look, and there is no doubt, its catching on the bottom, NOT the top where it seems to be common to catch. Im wondering if because I made the feed ramp too steep, its now allowing the shell to go in at too steep of an angle, thus causing it to catch there. I really dont know what the hell to do. Short of getting the gun worked on (weld some steel back onto the ramp), or filing down the opening to smooth out the bore, but the thread that I copied (the link in my OP) said be careful not get into the bore or below the portion I smoothed down.

#13 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 08:56 PM

This also happens with the factory mag...not just the MD 20, though it seem worse with the md20.

I just took apart the MD-20 and rewound the spring to be sure its set at 3 revolutions. Not sure what it was before, but its 3 now, and honestly it doesnt feel any tighter so Im thinking it was set at 3 before. Are you folks doing more than 3 turns?

#14 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:16 PM

You're throat job look nice, imho.

If they are catching on the top edge of the chamber, take the edge off and polish. Whenever I am throating a bbl, I always clean up the top edge.
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#15 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:32 PM

Well I just took another look, and there is no doubt, its catching on the bottom, NOT the top where it seems to be common to catch. .


Oops, didn't see that.
Take the edge off of the bottom of the chamber and polish. I always do that too and out of 15 (or so) guns, never had FTF issues.
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#16 K.o.t.H.

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 09:55 PM

Wow! The pic clearly shows it jammed in the extractor slot. It looks like you removed too much material off the bottom, just my opinion. You want a quick fix for any problem, drill the shit out of it, I hear that fixes everything.
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#17 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:30 PM

The idea is do all the tuning first, then enlarge as a last resort, gradually, until it runs well.


I agree.
Whenever I am doing a NIB gun, I rip it all the way down and do all the porting and polishing and tuning at the same time. Saves a lot of time :super: But I know everthing that needs to be done before hand. I get the impression, the OP didn't/doesn't really know everything to be done, so he is having to go the long way around the barn.

It'll all work out.

Edited by C&S Metall-Werkes, 11 February 2011 - 10:32 PM.

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#18 K.o.t.H.

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 10:35 PM

Paulski +1
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#19 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:20 PM

Wow! The pic clearly shows it jammed in the extractor slot. It looks like you removed too much material off the bottom, just my opinion. You want a quick fix for any problem, drill the shit out of it, I hear that fixes everything.


Compare my picture with the picture in the PDF that i linked to at the top of the page. They look pretty damn similar to me..... The pic MAY SEEM to show the extractor slot as the problem, but thats just because of the angle the pic was taken. When you see it in person, the tip of the shell is well past the extractor slot and not even touching it. There is probably a 1/16" gap between the "sharp edge" of the extractor slot and the shell hull because of the angle the shell is going in.

And enough of the fucking comments about drilling the gun. I made the decision to drill it, and I am happy with that decision. The gun almost never FTEs now, even with the worst shells. Also I can always dial it down later if its running hot. I also inspected the trunion today after shooting, and it looks like its barely even getting hit. So as it stands, the gun is not being over gassed.....when I start shooting buckshot, then I will dial it down, assuming I need to. Not sure if you caught this before, but before drilling, it completely stovepiped a slug on setting 2. The shell didnt even try to eject......
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#20 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:25 PM

So what trouble can I get myself into trying to further smooth out the feed ramp? I think at this point it would require getting into the bore a bit to really do more smoothing. The original guide says not to fuq with the bore portion of the ramp because it helps "firm up the shell in the chamber". Again for those of you unfamiliar with what I did, check this link ---> http://forum.saiga-1...attach_id=40501

#21 K.o.t.H.

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:32 PM

"almost never" Nevermind, I didn't realize it almost never didn't shoot when you needed it too. That's good enough. Just for the record, you can create other problems in the process of fixing another. JM2C. I'm not trying to be a dick, just trying to maybee help the next guy.
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#22 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:33 PM

I always take the edge off of the top and bottom of the chamber, and POLISH.
Has always worked for me. FRom the pics, I can't tell if you have already done this.
From what I can see, I don't think you have hurt your gun at all....just need to do minor massaging.
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#23 Torqued

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Posted 11 February 2011 - 11:59 PM

Here are couple more pics....as you can see the extractor slot has already been massaged a bit. There is def an upward angle there, not a sharp edge, though I could probably round it out more.

Posted Image

Here is another shot of my bolt and the extractors. One other possible cause i considered was the bottom extractor is catching on the primer. It does look a bit "sharper" at the tip. I did take a bit of metal of the top of that while polishing the bolt. Sure hope that isnt the cause. If it is, i wonder if I can round the tip of it a tad to make it less likely to catch on the shell. Def dont want to mess with that if i dont have to.

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#24 K.o.t.H.

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:11 AM

I know you don't want my opinion but to me it looks like you took way more off the inside of the slot than necessary.
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#25 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:13 AM

everything looks good so far. I would take the top and bottom edges off (and polish)in the chamber where the rim sits.
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#26 Torqued

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:21 AM

I know you don't want my opinion but to me it looks like you took way more off the inside of the slot than necessary.


I barely even touched that actually. Assuming your talking about the extractor slot. That already had a decent pitch to it, so I was pretty gentle with it. Also funny you say that because just a few posts ago you insisted it was obvious that it was catching on the extractor slot...if I took too much off, how would it then catch it? Also take a look at my second pic in the OP, taken from the top down, you can see i didnt take much off, actually its hard to tell i took ANY off.

Edited by Torqued, 12 February 2011 - 12:32 AM.


#27 Torqued

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:27 AM

everything looks good so far. I would take the top and bottom edges off (and polish)in the chamber where the rim sits.


So you think I should smooth/polish this part?

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#28 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:34 AM

afdfhed

Edited by C&S Metall-Werkes, 12 February 2011 - 12:36 AM.

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#29 C&S Metall-Werkes

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:35 AM

Yup, and then do it on the top but not as wide on the top. You want the ammo to go into that chamber as smooth as possible w/out ANY hitches.


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#30 Torqued

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 12:41 AM

I hope your right :P, I think that may be the answer too, but it worries me a bit messing with that when the dude who wrote the guide said not to F with it...but im not sure i have a lot of choices at this point.




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