My Saiga 12 LRBHO Report

[madmax4x4 68]

Maybe time for surefire an AGP to make some after, after market followers

[Heath_h49008 442]

Maybe time for surefire an AGP to make some after, after market followers

 

AGP, Surefire, Promag and the rest only need to make a small modification to their molds to make their mags work. I'm betting the "old" design mags will go on sale, to make room for the new design in the near future.

 

Of course I could try to patent it and scream if anyone dares to fix an old mag with a tab... lol.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Heath_h49008

[TX0303 18]

I do believe our existing mags will work with the BHO lever, all you need to do is file a little plastic. Look at the picture, on the right side of the mag, you can see where they filed the plastic so that it is straight down from the feed lip, not angled. This is how this mag came from the factory and you can tell they modified an old style mag with a file to work. This allow clearance for the BHO lever. I think this is all you need for your existing mags to seat.

Edited February 15, 2011 by TX0303

[TX0303 18]

This is the new follower. As you can see, the rear of the follower has a projection that fits into a notch in the mag body. This notch is only at the top of the mag and does not extend all the way down, only about 1/4 inch. Again this is the factory mag I got and I can tell they filed this square notch into an old style mag. This notch does not need to go far because the follower travels straight in the body of the mag but when it gets to the top, it hits the feed lips and pivots back into the notch. This puts it back far enough to hit the lever.

So here I have, from the factory, an old style mag that has two small filed areas and a new follower. When someone starts making a new style follower, you can convert all your stick mags to operate the BHO.

Edited February 15, 2011 by TX0303

[pedal2alloy 206]

i switched my order from the bho to the saiga 12 with rpk handguards, saved me a ton of trouble it would appear

 

 

I did the exact same thing a week ago when they "found" more non BHO models. Just came in today!

 

I don't see what the fuss is about. The new gun is backward compatible with the old mags

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

i switched my order from the bho to the saiga 12 with rpk handguards, saved me a ton of trouble it would appear

 

 

I did the exact same thing a week ago when they "found" more non BHO models. Just came in today!

 

I don't see what the fuss is about. The new gun is backward compatible with the old mags

 

Nobody knew if the BHO's would accept aftermarket mags. Plus the regular Saiga is cheaper and I don't need a LRBH

[Paulyski 2,227]

Wow so i just ordered the BHO Saiga and cant use a drum mag. BUM-MER!

 

You can be sure Mike D is going to be on that shit like white on rice to make his drum work with the system...

I'd be surprised otherwise.

Give him time.

The Russians developed the LRBHO from demand stemming from postings in Russia of Mike's then later Shannon's Youtube videos of the old Warfield LRBHO.

Mike's a smart guy. If anyone can do it, he can.

 

 

I think all is not lost, with breech bolt lock, time to recharge is much less, so perhaps 20 cartridge drum is not needed so much? To change 10 cartridge sticks will be swift indeed. I presume K-var will surely offer followers as soon as possible. Salute.

New Russian friend?

Welcome.

 

 

 

Sounds simple enough if I'm understanding you correctly. But isn't it necessary to make the "L" tab more permanent on the follower, i.e. JB Weld and small recessed flat-head screws? Have you tried this mag mod and does it really work every time? Any chance for some pics?

 

 

No problem, just don't bust me too hard on my fit and finish.

 

This may seem hard to believe, but even when the tab missed the hold open, the 3M doublesided tape was strong enough to stop the bolt on the tab itself. At least I know it's just empty and the gun hasn't shit the bed.

 

 

3M has some amazing double sided tapes.

The strongest you cna find locally is 3M's grey mounting tape that you find for about $6.00 at auto parts stores.

It's unbelievably strong.

They have even stronger tapes too through specialty sources.

 

Some of 3M's tapes, I shit you not. are actually used in place of (and are stronger than) rivets & are used in aircraft construction.

 

Think of that shit next time you take off to travel 30,000' high.

 

But their secret in in the flexibility of the seam.

If it can't shake or give, it'll break.

 

In this case, the 3M has the ability to far exceed JB Weld's performance, being as the 3M tape will absorb the shock & rebound, whereas the JB weld would eventually crack & fail.

Yeah, needless to say I was kinda surprised at how hard core the tape world has gotten before I need a solution for a problem a while back & researched it.

 

 

Other attachment methods could be slightly countersunk pop-rivets with washers on the inside of the followers to keep from pulling the rivet ends through the plastic after repeated strikes (if hit).

 

Guess I'll be happy to just rerack mine.. It's not like I'm in combat I guess... Shame nothing is interchangeable...

Just wait bro...

That's what this place is for.

If it doesn't work, some of us MAKE it work.

This forum & the cumulation of ideas have helped to shape the platform around the world.

Russian engineers monitor US builders & it can be seen in minor changes in design that can be seen when you look at different aged guns & pieces of them & compare the differences to when when certain US process & products came out.

Ideas are contagious.

In Russia, the common citizen cannot work on most of his gun legally.

Licensed repair centers with 40 year gunsmiths cant even legally touch 1/2 the parts on gun models until the government approves that Techs outside the factory can work on a particular model.

 

Half the research & development seems to be done here in the US.

[eddiekulpcavage 1]

I guess it's not so much of an issue with me as this is my first Saiga and I do not have any mags or drums. I wonder if I can count on manufactured ones or if I should buy what's available now and start modifying?

[Heath_h49008 442]

I guess it's not so much of an issue with me as this is my first Saiga and I do not have any mags or drums. I wonder if I can count on manufactured ones or if I should buy what's available now and start modifying?

 

Buy a cheap Promag Stick 10rnder and play a bit. It won't break the bank, and you can start now.

 

I am 100% certain the next round of aftermarket mags will be designed to work with the Russian LRBHO, but why wait? You might be able to get a deal on the old ones and have some fun doing the mod.

[Shadoh 16]

Damn, I hope the MD double stacks dont have to go through a redesign before they are even released.

[raleighsaiga 81]

If I were in the magazine business, I wouldn't be spending money designing/tooling/manufacturing squat for the 109BHO right now. What's in the country right now might be all that ever gets in, and there aren't that many. There are WAY more non-LRBHO Saigas out there, and I'd be hoarding my cash to make sure I'm in a position to exit this market gracefully should our worst fears be realized.

 

That is not to say this is what I expect to happen, but this is how I'd prepare for it if I was in this business.

[Heath_h49008 442]

The guy who gets ahead of the curve will win the market share. Frankly, its silly they weren't making them compatible last year when every saiga made by the russians switched to LRBHO.

 

The non-LRBHO are just old stock from what I have gathered. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[raleighsaiga 81]

Well, I just picked up my 109BHO, and darn it if it ain't a "Vodka Special." Three holes in perfect view of gas block, but not a one of them is big enough to poke a bent paperclip through. The two that I can see the best look like they aren't even drilled all the way through. Ironically, I am actually impressed with the fit and finish of everything else. This is one of the best stock AKs I've handled, and the trigger is not bad at all. I could absolutely live with this gun in its present form and be happy if there weren't such a thing as "conversion."

 

FWIW, the build date on this is April 14, 2009, so it isn't exactly "new stock." Import marks designate it as a "Legion" gun.

 

As has been pointed out, very little material must be removed in order to allow current magazines (including the MD20 and ProMag drums) to fit. They won't activate the LRBHO without a different follower, but they will work EXACTLY THE SAME as they do in non-LRBHO guns.

 

There is no reason to turn your noses up at the 109BHO if you have a ton of current mags. Even if you can't swap out the followers at some point, you can still use them in this gun. The followers do not stick up, like Heath's mods, so new mags should work equally well in non-LRBHO guns.

 

I am awaiting a conversion from E-TAC (yes, I know how you all feel about that ), and I plan to fit my drums so they work in both guns. You'll all have to wait (again, I know what you're thinking right here ) until I get my E-TAC for me to give a fair test of this.

 

Really, though, I'm sure you'll be getting plenty of confirmation that there is nothing to fear about the LRBHO and "old" mags, and it should be a lot simpler to make new followers than I thought. We might even be able to JB Weld to build up the rear of the followers on the drums to work, but again, it will be a while before I have a chance to try that. In fact, the more I look at this, the easier this looks like it will be...

[Xitesmai 1]

Has Mike D mentioned anything about adding a new follower?

 

It would be interesting if this could be an option when buying his drums...or perhaps a DIY follower replacement.

[Shadoh 16]

Its hard to see how you could mod the current drums with a new follower. Its round now so that it will go around the corner like the shells do. Maybe if you had two followers stacked that would still go around the corner.

[SaigaOneTwo 0]

Just picked mine up today. I got the LRBHO model from K-Var. Here's what I found out as far as aftermarket magazines are concerned.

 

1. Old style factory 5 rounder work fine and cycle the action, but won't lock the bolt open.

2. Korean 5 rounder, I bought it a while back, I think it's Korean, same as 1.

3. AGP 10 round mags, will seat in the mag well, but I can't seem to cycle the action. I haven't applied any real pressure, just used the same amount of force

used with the Korean and old style 5 rounders.

4. 20 round MD drum won't even fit in the mag well.

 

So what I gather so far, my MD drum and AGP mags won't work without some significant modifications and am not sure what those modifications need to be. I've to qualify this post by saying that by no means I'm an expert with Saiga 12 shotguns, more of a novice user.

 

Any ideas, or tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

-R

[raleighsaiga 81]

I got my ProMag 12 rounder to fit just fine by filing off just a bit off the back to make it look like the photo in post #35 above. It fits fine and hand cycles fine, as well.

 

If you just look at where the LRBHO lever is hitting the AGP and the MD20, you'll see exactly where you need to file. Really, it is not much at all, and it is not in a place that will affect the mag in any way.

 

I will try to test fire tomorrow and report back.

 

ETA: You do need to load the last round a little forward so that the LRBHO lever can clear the back of the shell when in the "locked open" position. It doesn't seem to interfere with the shells in the "unlocked" position, so I don't see the need to modify the drum at this point.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Raleigh Saiga

[TX0303 18]

My ProMag 20 seats fine with out any additional filing needed. However, like Raleigh mentioned, the last round must be pushed forward a little so that its base will not hit the BHO lever when pivoting the drum into the reciever. Once locked into place, the drum functions as it should.

[TX0303 18]

Its hard to see how you could mod the current drums with a new follower. Its round now so that it will go around the corner like the shells do. Maybe if you had two followers stacked that would still go around the corner.

 

I think a small tit could be added to the back of the follower. This tit would ride in a channel in the mag body. When the follower gets to the top of travel, this tit would push up on a movable tab, which in turn would operate the BHO lever.

Hey Mike and Cameron, since this was my idea, I get to beta test your prototypes!

[raleighsaiga 81]

Well, shut my mouth! Last night I pushed really hard and was able to punch open each of the three gas ports with an itty bitty allen wrench. I upsized until I couldn't work the next sized wrench in there, and what do you know, this thing ran the cheap stuff with the stock mag just fine! Whew!

 

I didn't know ahead of time, but the indoor range I use for practice doesn't allow slugs, and that was the only true high-brass stuff I brought. I shot Federal 9-pellet low recoil and Remington 1 1/8oz #8. The buck wasn't reliable on setting #1, but ran great on setting #2.

 

The real kicker is that the ProMag 12 rounder did great with the Federal, but I had a few FTE with the #8. I did get through one or two full drums with no FTE, but then I'd get another FTE. I think this won't be a problem once the gun breaks in and/or I polish the action.

 

I'm really pleased I bought the 109BHO, and I look forward to fiddling with aftermarket mags to see if we can get them to work the LRBHO. If not, so what.

[Heath_h49008 442]

Awesome writeup and info Raleigh.

[raleighsaiga 81]

BTW, the MD20 can be modified in the same way I modified the ProMag. I just want to fit the one and only MD20 I have to my E-TAC first before trying to get it to fit in my 109BHO. I did have to do some of the ordinary filing to fit the ProMag, but I have two more 12-rounders on the way as well as AGP and SGM stick mags to see if I can mod to work the LRBHO.

[raleighsaiga 81]

OK, so curiosity got the best of me, and I tried out the MD20 in my 109BHO. It has more material to file away in the area where the LRBHO lever pokes into the mag, but voila! It fits and hand-cycles just like the ProMag.

 

I did come to the realization that it will be much harder to get a current MD20 to trigger the LRBHO than a ProMag drum (and certainly a stick mag, which I will work on next week) because the follower doesn't ride all the way to the feed lips. Maybe someone else could figure something out, but it's going to take more than just a little filing and JB Weld to work the LRBHO. It should otherwise work just fine as a mag, just without the LRBHO.

 

 

It will be at least a week before I have a chance to fire rounds through it, but maybe someone else will get a chance before that.

 

I think that those who have cancelled their orders based upon speculation that the drums didn't even work in the 109BHO unfortunately did so in haste.

[Olgier 0]

I have one of the new ones also, and am seriously thinking of removing the BHO tab and just use the manual button. I have not found an easy fix to get surefire 12's to work. The shells sit farther back than they do in the promags, etc. and the lip on the shell catches and trips the BHO. I am also curious what the BHO button cause for issues if I try to convert it.

[Mike1234567 26]

Deleted... realized idea wouldn't work.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2011 by Mike1234567

[pedal2alloy 206]

OK, so curiosity got the best of me, and I tried out the MD20 in my 109BHO. It has more material to file away in the area where the LRBHO lever pokes into the mag, but voila! It fits and hand-cycles just like the ProMag.

 

I did come to the realization that it will be much harder to get a current MD20 to trigger the LRBHO than a ProMag drum (and certainly a stick mag, which I will work on next week) because the follower doesn't ride all the way to the feed lips. Maybe someone else could figure something out, but it's going to take more than just a little filing and JB Weld to work the LRBHO. It should otherwise work just fine as a mag, just without the LRBHO.

 

 

It will be at least a week before I have a chance to fire rounds through it, but maybe someone else will get a chance before that.

 

I think that those who have cancelled their orders based upon speculation that the drums didn't even work in the 109BHO unfortunately did so in haste.

 

What about making a block out of something like Delrin, that acted as a secondary follower (riding on top of the 'dummy round' follower) and had the right shape to mimic the follower that trips the lever? It would have to have a blocky shape and also be shaped to not fall out or be stripped by the bolt (bevelled so that the bolt would ride over it). The only drawback would be that it would reduce the capacity of the drum by one round.

[Heath_h49008 442]

It's easier than that.

 

 

Take a 12 gauge snap cap.

 

Pull out the primer, and replace it with a slihtly rounded pin the will extend to the back of the clearance groove as it is pushed foreward and up as the last round in the magazine. It will trip the LRBHO lever.

 

 

The issues I see right away are...

 

1 Making certain it doesn't get hung up in the magazine. (Round the tip)

 

2 Making certain it doesn't extend to far and get hung up on anything inside the gun.

 

That should work for the drums or the sticks... but you sacrifice one round of mag capacity. It is also a whole lot more difficult than adding the tab to the follower on the stick mag.

 

 

What do you guys think?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Maybe time for surefire an AGP to make some after, after market followers

 

AGP, Surefire, Promag and the rest only need to make a small modification to their molds to make their mags work. I'm betting the "old" design mags will go on sale, to make room for the new design in the near future.

 

Of course I could try to patent it and scream if anyone dares to fix an old mag with a tab... lol.

 

Yeah right...like you're the only one who ever came up with that old idea...lol.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

The Russians developed the LRBHO from demand stemming from postings in Russia of Mike's then later Shannon's Youtube videos of the old Warfield LRBHO.

 

 

Half the research & development seems to be done here in the US.

 

I don't know about all that...I'm pretty sure The EXP-01-30, otherwise known as the S-12 SWAT model BITD, was designed with a LRBHO before any videos were posted by Mike or myself of a US made LRBHO.

 

Also...correction....I have NEVER posted any videos of a gun of mine with any Warfiled Armory LRBHO in it, the ones I have had in my guns for over 5 years are of my own design. I have changed this design around quite much over the years, to suit more and more changes that came along in mags, in an attempt to get one version that would work perfect with all types of S-12 mags on the market. The design worked perfectly with the original Russian mags, was more problematic with the AGPs but I made it work, then came the SGMs which aren't much different. I have been through all of the ideas posted in this thread, like bent tabs on followers, other designs of mine that worked better, notching mag bodies on the Rt side, making a channel in the spine of the mag body....even working with solutions to the round shaped dummy round of the drums casing problems. All of this is old news to me. It's entertaining though, watching others come up with some of the same, or similar ideas.

 

 

 

[Heath_h49008 442]

Maybe time for surefire an AGP to make some after, after market followers

 

AGP, Surefire, Promag and the rest only need to make a small modification to their molds to make their mags work. I'm betting the "old" design mags will go on sale, to make room for the new design in the near future.

 

Of course I could try to patent it and scream if anyone dares to fix an old mag with a tab... lol.

 

Yeah right...like you're the only one who ever came up with that old idea...lol.

 

I know LOL. It's just funny to me how many people think they invented the wheel every time they take a dump and it rolls downhill.

 

Great minds think alike. And marginally insane minds like mine and others seem to find common solutions as well!

 

I'm looking forward to these new mags with the LRBHO tab provision. It standardizes half of the task. The best part people haven't even been talking about, is how it pushes the empty mags out of the Magwells. You can keep them a bit tight, and the spring pressure makes them drop free and clear. I love it!

 

The best mix I can imagine is the 109BHO gun, a JT magwell, good high-cap mags that work the system, and the new "Auto-plug" pop-off valve. Talk about ease of operation and simplicity! It's a great time to be into these guns.