Arik 565 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) Myhttp://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20110212_Different_version_of_Old_City_shooting_emerges_at_trial.html link This happened about a year ago. Basically 2 groups of college students ran into each other in the Olde City (bars, clubs, night scene) section of Philadelphia. GROUP 1) 2 Asians 1 Iranian GROUP 2) Americans of Italian & Irish desent 1 guy in group 2 was doing pull ups on scaffolding as his friends watched. At some point group 1 walked by, words were exchanged that possibly had something to do with sexist, and other derogatory remarks. Group 1 walked away with group 2 following behind and yelling out derogatory comments. One person in group 2 charged at another person in group 1 several times with his fist up like he was about to punch. Meanwhile group 2 was still trying to walk away. (This part isnt in the article but was printed earlier, after this all went down) Group 2 finally stopped by the Fox29 news building (which happened to have a camera pointing at that sidewalk) Persons in Group 2 spread out in a semi circle as if to surround Group 1. One guy in Group 2 again charged at another in Group 1. At this point the guy in Group 1, a Va resident with a valid Va CCW (Pa recognizes Va ccw permits) pulled out his .38 revolver to let the people in Group 2 know to back off. The same person in Group 2 once again charged at them with his fist up as if to strike. At that point Ung, the man with the gun, fired his revolver at the man charging, hitting him several times. This has been going on here for about a year with Ung now on trial. THe guy he shot is a nephew of some big shot lawyer in the city. So lets see, the people in Group 1 made pretty much every effort to walk away from a confrontation. The guys in Group 2 made pretty much every effort to escalate or continue the confrontation. (in camera view) Ung had a permit that allowed him to legally carry and only pulled his revolver when cornered. Ung warned group 2 to back off. Shot only when attacked again. After the shooting Ung called the police and waited for them to show up. Sounds like self defence to me! Its BS that Group 2 was sober. College students, hanging out in the bar and night life section of the city, doing pull ups on scaffolding at 2am? Really? Sober? There is no mention of Ung being sober or not but if he was drinking this wouldn't even get to trial. Fucked up that you cant defend yourself without fear that the asshole you're defending yourself from isnt related to some city big shot. Edited February 12, 2011 by Arik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 The problem with the law is the LAWyers.. IMHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocinante 100 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 At this point the guy in Group 2, a Va resident with a valid Va CCW (Pa recognizes Va ccw permits) pulled out his .38 revolver to let the people in Group 2 know to back off. Shouldn't that read "At this point the guy in Group 1" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 At this point the guy in Group 2, a Va resident with a valid Va CCW (Pa recognizes Va ccw permits) pulled out his .38 revolver to let the people in Group 2 know to back off. Shouldn't that read "At this point the guy in Group 1" Thanks Fixed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BpS12 512 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 The guys in group 2 probably were sober.....by the time the cops got there. Gettting shot/having seen your buddy shot has that effect. I agree with you Arik, but it is part of the risk we take when carrying. I've talked to ALOT of concealed carriers that worry about whether or not they would actually even draw the weapon soley due to the potentional ramifications. I've had two different CCW license and in both classes, we were told to EXPECT to have to go thru some form of court battle, if we were to shoot someone. It sucks, but a potentially ruined life is better than no life at all. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenman223 460 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I was under the impression that around here its a force on force thing or equal force, meaning if your attacked by an unarmed person you cant pull a gun and shoot them b/c they're not really threating your life. I dont agree with that but im sure in NC he would be charged as well. Really doesnt surprise me at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 Not that my opinion has any weight of law, but if someone is bent on attacking me and I'm armed, I have to consider the fact that if he manages to overpower me he now has control of my gun which makes it a potentially deadly situation for me. Unless I'm certain I can take him down with my fists I can't let it get that far. I've said it before, I have to be the one who survives to have a court date or nothing else matters. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 I was under the impression that around here its a force on force thing or equal force, meaning if your attacked by an unarmed person you cant pull a gun and shoot them b/c they're not really threating your life. I dont agree with that but im sure in NC he would be charged as well. Really doesnt surprise me at all. Can you find any text verifying the "equal force" thing? I've never heard of such a thing, but maybe some states have something like that in place? Sounds kinda stupid, seeing as how someone can easily kill you with their bare hands, or at the very least, incapacitate you enough to grab something deadly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 If someone says "I'm going to kill you" you are in fear of your life and deadly force may be necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 If it's just you and one other guy, if you're in fear for your life, you're justified. Also, he won't be around to tell the story. If it's you vs them, it's disparity of force, and you are in fear for your life because there are more of them then there are of you. Shoot as many as you need to before they run, then stop shooting. Do NOT plug the buddies in the ass as they run. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 South Carolina 1. You must be without fault in bringing on the difficulty 2. you must actually believe you are in immient danger of loss of life or serious bodily injury or actually be in such danger 3. Deadly force may not be used to stop simple assault 4. If you are in such danger, you must use dealy force only if a reasonable or prudent man of ordinary firmness and courage would have believed himself to be in such danger, or if you were in such danger as would warrant a man of ordinary prudence, firmness and courage to strike the fatal blow to to save yourself from serious bodily harm or losing your own life 5 You can defend your property, your place of business and others. Since the case in the thread involved two groups of guys and the aggressor only came with fists. The case would go against the guy carrying concealed in SC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 According to that article, the dude said he would kill him. That right there is justifiable self defense. You don't say that stuff and expect to not be held accountable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
supertex 242 Posted February 12, 2011 Report Share Posted February 12, 2011 better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 In Pennsylvania where this happened a person has a duty to retreat in order to avoid using deadly force, if possible. Then he can only use deadly force under threat of death or serious bodily harm. The person seems to have satisfied the duty to retreat, but the question may be if the bodily harm that he was about to endure was "serious". I would argue that you don't know the answer to that until it's too late, and who's definition of "serious" are we using here? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heath_h49008 442 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 In Pennsylvania where this happened a person has a duty to retreat in order to avoid using deadly force, if possible. Then he can only use deadly force under threat of death or serious bodily harm. The person seems to have satisfied the duty to retreat, but the question may be if the bodily harm that he was about to endure was "serious". I would argue that you don't know the answer to that until it's too late, and who's definition of "serious" are we using here? Have people been beaten to death by a drunk with fists? He had a reasonable fear of death. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Have people been beaten to death by a drunk with fists? He had a reasonable fear of death. Very true. Hopefully the people on the jury can recognize this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 UPDATE: Mr. Ung has been found Not Guilty on all charges. The shooting was ruled as justifiable. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/crime&id=7960513 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 UPDATE: Mr. Ung has been found Not Guilty on all charges. The shooting was ruled as justifiable. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/crime&id=7960513 That's great news. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Nice to know philly hasn't completely lost touch with reality and still has some common sense! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 ADA is a douche.. IMHO. Was aquitted.. The attorneys for both sides spoke to Action News after the verdict came down. "I am deeply, deeply disappointed for the family, I feel terrible for Eddie who's still walking around with four bullets in his body and injuries that are likely to be permanent," Assistant District Attorney Jan McDermott said. "I think these were all some good young men that made some bad choices that night and Mr. Ung can get on with his life now, and hopefully, Mr. DiDonato will improve so he can get on with his life," defense attorney Jack McMahon said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga_rom 91 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I was under the impression that around here its a force on force thing or equal force, meaning if your attacked by an unarmed person you cant pull a gun and shoot them b/c they're not really threating your life. I dont agree with that but im sure in NC he would be charged as well. Really doesnt surprise me at all. thats exactly what i was thinking. not only that, but it seems rather excessive that the guy shot him repeatedly. i thought the point of self defense was to stop the threat, not to end the life of the person who is threatening you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 thats exactly what i was thinking. not only that, but it seems rather excessive that the guy shot him repeatedly. i thought the point of self defense was to stop the threat, not to end the life of the person who is threatening you Luckily, I've never been in a situation where I've had to shoot someone. But, I can imagine in a split-second situation like that, you're most likely going to pop off a few rounds in quick succession. It's not like you're going to fire one round, and see if he's stopped, and then go from there. I can easily imagine squeezing off at least 4 rounds in barely over 1 second. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga_rom 91 Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 thats exactly what i was thinking. not only that, but it seems rather excessive that the guy shot him repeatedly. i thought the point of self defense was to stop the threat, not to end the life of the person who is threatening you Luckily, I've never been in a situation where I've had to shoot someone. But, I can imagine in a split-second situation like that, you're most likely going to pop off a few rounds in quick succession. It's not like you're going to fire one round, and see if he's stopped, and then go from there. I can easily imagine squeezing off at least 4 rounds in barely over 1 second. yea, i can understand that. logical thought process would be tested in that kind of situation. ones reaction would be more like a reflex than a carefully thought out chain of events. personally though, i think everyone acted questionably here though. one group instigating, the other group refusing to back down. its so much easier to just be polite to other people and at least try to avoid unnecessary confrontations like this Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 its so much easier to just be polite to other people and at least try to avoid unnecessary confrontations like this I agree 100% on that. A friend and myself got to talking about concealed carrying (which I haven't done yet, still need to get my CWP), and people's general attitudes. I'm 27, and still have friends who haven't completely grown out of the "I like to throw fists, just to throw fists" stage that I luckily grew out of not too long after highschool. We started talking about how these specific friends generally aren't the best candidates to concealed carry (they don't, BTW), due to their attitudes in certain situations. Because if you're concealed carrying, you have an extra responsibility to not escalate a situation. (Pretty much every self-defense law I've read for any state, always has something in it about how you cannot be the one who initiated or escalated the situation) Some people lack the will, or knowledge, to at least try to defuse a situation. That can be a dangerous thing, when coupled with that person concealed carrying a deadly weapon, IMO. Not saying that's what happened in the news story, though. Just pointing out that I agree with you 100%; some people just need to quit fucking with other people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saiga_rom 91 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 its so much easier to just be polite to other people and at least try to avoid unnecessary confrontations like this I agree 100% on that. A friend and myself got to talking about concealed carrying (which I haven't done yet, still need to get my CWP), and people's general attitudes. I'm 27, and still have friends who haven't completely grown out of the "I like to throw fists, just to throw fists" stage that I luckily grew out of not too long after highschool. We started talking about how these specific friends generally aren't the best candidates to concealed carry (they don't, BTW), due to their attitudes in certain situations. Because if you're concealed carrying, you have an extra responsibility to not escalate a situation. (Pretty much every self-defense law I've read for any state, always has something in it about how you cannot be the one who initiated or escalated the situation) Some people lack the will, or knowledge, to at least try to defuse a situation. That can be a dangerous thing, when coupled with that person concealed carrying a deadly weapon, IMO. Not saying that's what happened in the news story, though. Just pointing out that I agree with you 100%; some people just need to quit fucking with other people. i know exactly what you mean. people like that annoy me because they seem rather detached from reality, thinking they can go assault someone else and nothing will come of it. it would probably be one hell of a reality check if they did actually hurt someone else, and had to explain their actions to law enforcement. I think maybe guys like that have some sort of insecurity issue, and they feel the need to try and prove themselves as a tough guy. that, or they just dont have any self control, in which case they certainly shouldn't be carrying a firearm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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