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ssnovaak

Straight up, is a Saiga 5.45 that much more accurate than a Saiga 7.62

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Straight up, if you've shot both, is it really that much more accurate at about 100 yards? Also how does the recoil really compare? I know that the 5.45 has a better trajectory and is a generally more accurate round, but we're talking about Saiga's here, alot of people have stated that the Saiga ak47 was a lot more accurate than other ak47's(7.62's).

 

The only three things that are really going for the 5.45 for me are:

-better accuracy(at 100 yards)

-lower recoil/better handling

-(I'm well aware of other benefits, but I've weighed them out...as cheap as the ammo is for the 5.45 I rather have the security of knowing that I can get it if need be so the 5.45 wouldn't end up being a wall-hanger)

 

But in all reality, when we're looking at Saiga's(well made ak47) is that much better? I've read around that the 5.45's can do within 3 inches at 100 yards, but people say they can do that supposedly with a Saiga 7.62 as well. Is it true?

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Yes. It is substantially more accurate. The round is inherently more accurate and the guns are so simular of course it is. The 5.45 also has significantly less recoil.

 

At 100 yards though you should be able to hit just fine with a 47.

 

 

 

But that's not the whole story. The 7.62 may have more recoil and not be as precise, but it is a beast of a round and has much better penetration of cover and wounding (IMO). You really need to look into wound patterns (which are highly debatable as to which is better but still important)

 

I have both- I prefer the 47 but shoot the 74 more due to ammo costs.

 

 

 

edit: also keep in mind that many "wound comparrisons" report both rounds at their optimal velocity. Keep in mind that at certain distances the velocity will NOT be optimal (I feel that the 7.62 does better over a wider variety of velocity).

Edited by volkov

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Better accuracy at 100 yards is irrelevant, either caliber will easily score hits. If accuracy matters to you think past 300 meters, or think about a high volume of fire...on the move for example.

 

In my experience 74's do significantly better as the range and/or volume of fire increases, but below 300m either is effective overall. I still prefer the 74 for rapid shooting though, if you can ever get out to 300-400m and put a good 74 through it's paces you'll see what I mean.

 

Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans. True it does have better intermediate penetration but that's also why it's less effective against soft targets...it's a relatively low velocity 30 caliber projectile with a pretty standard bullet design. I wouldn't want to get shot by one by any means, but IMO 5.45 is more effective.

 

BallisticChart.jpg

 

 

 

 

IMO the 74 is an all around better rifle than the 47 for lots of reasons, I was sold on the caliber a long time ago after I started really seeing what it could do.

 

 

 

Z

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Better accuracy at 100 yards is irrelevant, either caliber will easily score hits. If accuracy matters to you think past 300 meters, or think about a high volume of fire...on the move for example.

 

In my experience 74's do significantly better as the range and/or volume of fire increases, but below 300m either is effective overall. I still prefer the 74 for rapid shooting though, if you can ever get out to 300-400m and put a good 74 through it's paces you'll see what I mean.

 

Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans. True it does have better intermediate penetration but that's also why it's less effective against soft targets...it's a relatively low velocity 30 caliber projectile with a pretty standard bullet design. I wouldn't want to get shot by one by any means, but IMO 5.45 is more effective.

 

BallisticChart.jpg

 

 

 

 

IMO the 74 is an all around better rifle than the 47 for lots of reasons, I was sold on the caliber a long time ago after I started really seeing what it could do.

 

 

 

Z

 

That chart compares old military AKs rounds. When it comes to modern 7.62x39 mm loads, Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HP (8M3 "Sapsan") is a devastating fragmenting round, while Golden Tiger 124 gr FMJ is designed to tumble like crazy. Both are very good, modern bullet designs and have sick terminal ballistics. They are also rather affordable, at around $200 a case. I don't believe that there are any 5.45 mm loads which match the terminal ballistics of these loads.

 

Also, I don't own a 5.45 mm weapon to compare, but I own an Arsenal SGL21 (7.62x39 mm) and that thing is pretty damn accurate from 100 yards. I have a bunch of targets with 6 rd groups of about 2-2.5". As far as I am concerned, AK74 is much better for full-auto or burst work, but in semi-auto carbines, I prefer 7.62x39 mm.

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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While shooting my 5.45x39 Saiga I was able to get 1 1/2" groups (or less at 100 yards).. with the smallest being 1 1/4"..

 

The 7.62x39 is more of a straight 2" or more shot-group @ 100yard type of gun..

 

I agree though 100-300 meter/yards both with get the ZOMBIE.. :killer:

 

Depends if you thinking of SCOPE'ing it or just blasting away per se'.

 

The other - on the 5.45x39 would be cleaning it.. my 762x39 didn't need as much (or any) compared to the 5.45...

 

I'd rather point, shoot, & put away.. IMHO..

 

The gas piston is what seems to take the 5.45x39 SALTS abuse the most.. (suggest a nylon bristle baby-bottle brush)

 

 

Al

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That chart compares old military AKs rounds. When it comes to modern 7.62x39 mm loads, Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HP (8M3 "Sapsan") is a devastating fragmenting round, while Golden Tiger 124 gr FMJ is designed to tumble like crazy. Both are very good, modern bullet designs and have sick terminal ballistics.

 

I wouldn't trust either for self-defense. Russian commercial rounds have poor quality control compared to the military 7N6.

 

I wonder though - does the fragmenting Wolf Military Classic still have the same potent barrier penetration that everyone lauds the 7.62x39 for over the 5.45?

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That chart compares old military AKs rounds. When it comes to modern 7.62x39 mm loads, Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HP (8M3 "Sapsan") is a devastating fragmenting round, while Golden Tiger 124 gr FMJ is designed to tumble like crazy. Both are very good, modern bullet designs and have sick terminal ballistics.

 

I wouldn't trust either for self-defense. Russian commercial rounds have poor quality control compared to the military 7N6.

 

I wonder though - does the fragmenting Wolf Military Classic still have the same potent barrier penetration that everyone lauds the 7.62x39 for over the 5.45?

 

 

That's a good question. Personally, I've been stocking on both MC HPs and Golden Tigers FMJs lately. Might be loading my mags half and half in a SHTF scenario. As far as quality control, they seem to go bang every time, but as far as terminal ballistics consistency, I don't know.

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That's a good question. Personally, I've been stocking on both MC HPs and Golden Tigers FMJs lately. Might be loading my mags half and half in a SHTF scenario.

It would be nice to have the question answered. People always recommend 7.62x39 because of the barrier penetration, but can you still have that AND good terminal performance in flesh? I like 7N6 for its good balance of penetration and wounding effects, whereas something like the Hornady 5.45 would only be good if you knew you didn't have to shoot _through_ something solid before hitting the BG.

 

 

As far as quality control, they seem to go bang every time, but as far as terminal ballistics consistency, I don't know.

I bring up the quality control because I have experienced and read about problems with Russian commercial ammo, but have neither seen nor heard anything similar about 7N6.

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That's a good question. Personally, I've been stocking on both MC HPs and Golden Tigers FMJs lately. Might be loading my mags half and half in a SHTF scenario.

It would be nice to have the question answered. People always recommend 7.62x39 because of the barrier penetration, but can you still have that AND good terminal performance in flesh? I like 7N6 for its good balance of penetration and wounding effects, whereas something like the Hornady 5.45 would only be good if you knew you didn't have to shoot _through_ something solid before hitting the BG.

 

 

As far as quality control, they seem to go bang every time, but as far as terminal ballistics consistency, I don't know.

I bring up the quality control because I have experienced and read about problems with Russian commercial ammo, but have neither seen nor heard anything similar about 7N6.

 

In my experience, the quality of Russian commercial ammo has been increasing over the years. It's gotten cleaner, more reliable and more accurate. It makes sense, since things have been getting better for Russia in general, except for the recent economic dip due to The Great Recession. The workers are getting paid more, the factories can afford new equipment, etc. Things were a lot tougher back in the 90's, when they first started importing Russian ammo.

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Thanks for the input guys.

To answer a few more questions, I would probably put a sight or optics on it, and do a tactical conversion with a railmount for a flashlight/laser and a vertical grip stemming from the barrel. I'd also want to convert to pistol grip w/ folding stock, and if it's the 7.62 I'd want to do the magazine conversion too....but that's going to be another thread.

 

 

This gun, once turned with the conversion would mainly have a survival rifle purpose, a mix of being able to take down deer as well as, if needed be, protection from attackers.

 

I'm aware of the penetration and wounding effects between the 5.45 and the 7.62. Which is why I kind of debated between the two rounds, 5.45 would be able to put out rounds faster in a situation with less recoil(more ideal for zombies/defense), but I don't know how well it would do for taking out bigger beasts.hunting (ie: deer..maybe hogs..or even a black bear if it was for survival...), also the dilemma of having to clean the gun all the time too(as it was mentioned). Those things may lead me to the 7.62 while sacrificing the above traits from the 5.45....the saying goes... if you had to just have "one gun".

 

 

 

 

Having said that...if/when more money comes available I'd get saiga .308 for hunting and a saiga 12 for hunting/home protection...but not as my goto survival gun, too much kick, expensive rounds, can't hold as much, etc. etc.

Edited by ssnovaak

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Hunting deer? You might want a 7.62x39 then. The 5.45 could take a deer if you can and had to but ethics come to mind. You can shoot coyotes and small stuff, 5.45 even has a V-Max round now, but you're going to have more options with 7.62 bullets than a soviet 5.45 one. Someone should make 5.45 soft points.

 

I like my 5.45 but if I want to shoot deer that really isn't the first caliber that comes to mind. Know what I'm say'n?

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Hunting deer? You might want a 7.62x39 then. The 5.45 could take a deer if you can and had to but ethics come to mind. You can shoot coyotes and small stuff, 5.45 even has a V-Max round now, but you're going to have more options with 7.62 bullets than a soviet 5.45 one. Someone should make 5.45 soft points.

 

I like my 5.45 but if I want to shoot deer that really isn't the first caliber that comes to mind. Know what I'm say'n?

 

Yeah I know what you're saying, and that's what I figured. Hence taking down "bigger beasts" like deer/hogs, etc. as a survival weapon/the-one-go-to-gun, I was leaning towards the 7.62, and was wondering the trade off on accuracy(if it was that bad at 100yards, some pple claim 4+ inch clusters with other ak47's, and that's pretty bad, and I was wondering about the Saiga's)....as well as recoil/handling.

Edited by ssnovaak

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Yeah I know what you're saying, and that's what I figured. Hence taking down "bigger beasts" like deer/hogs, etc. as a survival weapon/the-one-go-to-gun, I was leaning towards the 7.62, and was wondering the trade off on accuracy(if it was that bad at 100yards, some pple claim 4+ inch clusters with other ak47's, and that's pretty bad, and I was wondering about the Saiga's)....as well as recoil/handling.

 

Member -X- over at theakforum.net has documented numerous deer hunts with 5.45 rifles. He claims that one has never gotten away, although they have run up to 100 yards before. The only time two shots were required, if I recall, was when his buddy hit the deer with 7.62x39 first. Another member over there has had successful hog hunts. 5.45 will get the job done if needed.

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Great video, very informative, but it mostly strengthened what I already knew. With little argument, the 5.45 is an all around better tactical round(tactical implying human targets), more manageable, higher velocity, better accuracy, yaw reactions, trajectory patterns...similar to the .223.

 

However, something that I found interesting that I don't really know much about is when Mikhail Kalashnikov talked about his confidence in a "modernized/updated 7.62 round's superiority over the 5.45"... could someone chime in? Is this what we buy nowadays normally? (edit: I'm assuming he was talking about the M67)

 

I'll probably go with the 7.62 because of versatility and practicality (no domestic producers...if we did, I may reconsider the decision, and having to always clean after shooting mostly corrosive ammo), it's ability to take down deer(I have no doubts you can do it with the 5.45....just like with a .223 but it may take more rounds and more time to take it down...waiting for it to die out)....that's not to say that if the accuracy was compromised that much then it would take more rounds and more time(since you just scared the deer away) with the 7.62. BUT these arguments are making me consider things.

Edited by ssnovaak

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However, something that I found interesting that I don't really know much about is when Mikhail Kalashnikov talked about his confidence in a "modernized/updated 7.62 round's superiority over the 5.45"... could someone chime in? Is this what we buy nowadays normally? (edit: I'm assuming he was talking about the M67)

 

He was probably talking about something like the modern Russian bullet designs which I already mentioned: the fragmenting 8M3 and the 124 gr FMJ bullet in Golden Tiger rounds, which has an enhanced air pocket design, making it tumble more than the M67.

 

By the way, putting a decent muzzle brake (such as a properly copied AK74 brake or the PWS FSC-47) on a 7.62x39 weapon, greatly reduces recoil and muzzle climb. My SGL21, with it's 74 zig-zag brake, is a very soft shooter. I can shoot it rapidly with a good degree of accuracy.

Edited by SpetsnazGRU

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sorta off topic, but watching the video I was wondering how short MK actually is. Always knew he was short, but how short?

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However, something that I found interesting that I don't really know much about is when Mikhail Kalashnikov talked about his confidence in a "modernized/updated 7.62 round's superiority over the 5.45"... could someone chime in? Is this what we buy nowadays normally? (edit: I'm assuming he was talking about the M67)

 

He was probably talking about something like the modern Russian bullet designs which I already mentioned: the fragmenting 8M3 and the 124 gr FMJ bullet in Golden Tiger rounds, which has an enhanced air pocket design, making it tumble more than the M67.

 

By the way, putting a decent muzzle brake (such as a properly copied AK74 brake or the PWS FSC-47) on a 7.62x39 weapon, greatly reduces recoil and muzzle climb. My SGL21, with it's 74 zig-zag brake, is a very soft shooter. I can shoot it rapidly with a good degree of accuracy.

 

Thanks for the tip, you have any pics/links of your muzzle brake or gun on here?

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However, something that I found interesting that I don't really know much about is when Mikhail Kalashnikov talked about his confidence in a "modernized/updated 7.62 round's superiority over the 5.45"... could someone chime in? Is this what we buy nowadays normally? (edit: I'm assuming he was talking about the M67)

 

He was probably talking about something like the modern Russian bullet designs which I already mentioned: the fragmenting 8M3 and the 124 gr FMJ bullet in Golden Tiger rounds, which has an enhanced air pocket design, making it tumble more than the M67.

 

By the way, putting a decent muzzle brake (such as a properly copied AK74 brake or the PWS FSC-47) on a 7.62x39 weapon, greatly reduces recoil and muzzle climb. My SGL21, with it's 74 zig-zag brake, is a very soft shooter. I can shoot it rapidly with a good degree of accuracy.

 

Thanks for the tip, you have any pics/links of your muzzle brake or gun on here?

 

Sure. My 7.62x39 mm is an Arsenal SGL21 with a few mods. It's a Saiga that's pimped out like an AK-103, except for a folding stock and (obviously) full-auto capability. They were a steak about a year and a half ago, when K-Var had them on sale for $500. That's when I bought mine. The aftermarket accessories I have on it are: MD Arms Molot Grip, K-Var AK-BFS external trunnion folding stock, Krebs Enhanced Safety Lever, Tromix Bolt-On Charging Handle, Ultimak Gas Tube Rail, VLTOR offset light mount, AimPoint Micro R1 red dot, Surefire G2 LED light and a Russian Navy AK Sling. I have a proper AK-100 folding stock kit and am looking for a place to install it for me right now.

 

The brake is a high quality reproduction of the AK103 brake, which is based on the original AK-74 brake: http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16986&cat=344&page=1. Some cheaper brakes on the market look very similar, but don't work as well.

 

post-10789-0-37935300-1298590578_thumb.jpg

 

d_1116.jpg

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I have both a 7.62 and a 5.45, between the two, I like 5.45 better for many reasons.

 

The short list is that it is lighter, so I can carry more, and it is still effective through a lot of cover (7N6 has a mild steel core) while delivering some pretty awful wounds.

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Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

 

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

HPIM1263.jpg

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However, something that I found interesting that I don't really know much about is when Mikhail Kalashnikov talked about his confidence in a "modernized/updated 7.62 round's superiority over the 5.45"... could someone chime in? Is this what we buy nowadays normally? (edit: I'm assuming he was talking about the M67)

 

He was probably talking about something like the modern Russian bullet designs which I already mentioned: the fragmenting 8M3 and the 124 gr FMJ bullet in Golden Tiger rounds, which has an enhanced air pocket design, making it tumble more than the M67.

 

By the way, putting a decent muzzle brake (such as a properly copied AK74 brake or the PWS FSC-47) on a 7.62x39 weapon, greatly reduces recoil and muzzle climb. My SGL21, with it's 74 zig-zag brake, is a very soft shooter. I can shoot it rapidly with a good degree of accuracy.

 

Thanks for the tip, you have any pics/links of your muzzle brake or gun on here?

 

Sure. My 7.62x39 mm is an Arsenal SGL21 with a few mods. It's a Saiga that's pimped out like an AK-103, except for a folding stock and (obviously) full-auto capability. They were a steak about a year and a half ago, when K-Var had them on sale for $500. That's when I bought mine. The aftermarket accessories I have on it are: MD Arms Molot Grip, K-Var AK-BFS external trunnion folding stock, Krebs Enhanced Safety Lever, Tromix Bolt-On Charging Handle, Ultimak Gas Tube Rail, VLTOR offset light mount, AimPoint Micro R1 red dot, Surefire G2 LED light and a Russian Navy AK Sling. I have a proper AK-100 folding stock kit and am looking for a place to install it for me right now.

 

The brake is a high quality reproduction of the AK103 brake, which is based on the original AK-74 brake: http://www.k-var.com...&cat=344&page=1. Some cheaper brakes on the market look very similar, but don't work as well.

 

post-10789-0-37935300-1298590578_thumb.jpg

 

d_1116.jpg

 

 

Nice setup, thanks for the pic. :up:

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Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

 

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

 

 

 

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

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Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

 

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

 

 

 

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

 

I was pretty impressed by what Silver Bear 7.62x39 SP did to a deer too. I hit it in a shoulder from about 75 yards and the bullet completely destroyed that shoulder (the front leg was hanging on skin and ligaments), shredded both lungs (it wasn't only the bullet, but all the bone fragments) and made a 2" diameter exit hole in the back. Nasty! Yet, somehow, the thing still managed to run for about 30 yards.

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That's one tough deer and one nasty round. From the sound of it though, a lot of meat probably go destroyed from the shots?

 

Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

 

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

 

 

 

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

 

I was pretty impressed by what Silver Bear 7.62x39 SP did to a deer too. I hit it in a shoulder from about 75 yards and the bullet completely destroyed that shoulder (the front leg was hanging on skin and ligaments), shredded both lungs (it wasn't only the bullet, but all the bone fragments) and made a 2" diameter exit hole in the back. Nasty! Yet, somehow, the thing still managed to run for about 30 yards.

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That's one tough deer and one nasty round. From the sound of it though, a lot of meat probably go destroyed from the shots?

 

Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

 

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

 

 

 

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

 

I was pretty impressed by what Silver Bear 7.62x39 SP did to a deer too. I hit it in a shoulder from about 75 yards and the bullet completely destroyed that shoulder (the front leg was hanging on skin and ligaments), shredded both lungs (it wasn't only the bullet, but all the bone fragments) and made a 2" diameter exit hole in the back. Nasty! Yet, somehow, the thing still managed to run for about 30 yards.

 

Quite a bit of meat destroyed on the shoulder, but the bullet just missed the back-strap and exited through the ribs. Not too bad.

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Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

 

Yes.

By the way, http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=59754&st=0&p=568816entry568816

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I have a 74 brake I want to put on my 7.62, people voiced their concerns about the hole size but a 7.62 will pass through it just fine. What do you think?

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Also my research has led me to believe the 5.45 is a better terminal performer than the 7.62, particular when comparing 7N6 to wolf commercial 7.62. I don't claim to be a ballistic expert but I've seen very little that indicates 7.62 is more effective in humans.

124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

Dang, a 7.62 did that? Impressive.

 

Yes.

By the way, http://forum.saiga-1...16

 

 

That is one sick round! It would make me feel a lot safer in the woods if any wild beasts were to bother me(be it a bear or perhaps even a moose...even if it took a few shots, would be pretty inflicting).

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