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Prototype Steel Hi-Caps UPDATE June-16


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I am now convinced that there is global conspiracy against the saiga weapon owners of the west. I was attemping to procure an S-12 5 round magazine this week (get ready to cringe) so I could cut it in half. I need to work out feed geometry.

 

I have probably called and emailed at least 50 seperate businesses and suppliers world wide. NADA. What the hell is going on? The people I have gotten into contact with are just as stumped. They tell me Izhmash is not answering any questions either. Everyone says they just get a generic email, with a mission statement :ded:

 

It looks as though I am going to have to buy one from an auction site.

 

There are evil forces at work here, friends.

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It looks as though I am going to have to buy one from an auction site.

 

DON'T DO IT!! :cryss:

 

acca47 has some for sale right here on this board... and you'll likely get them cheaper from him - shipped straight from Russia - than you will on the auction sites...

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You can also try to find the two round mags...there is enough internally to get the geometry curves and such correct.

 

I have the feeling that it is a requirement to be a complete prick to work at some of these places i've been calling. I can understand the frustration of the vendors, due to the high volume of people asking for somthing that isn't there, but damn man. Some of them were just friggin a-holes.

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I have a theory based on various comments and information found in the forum and marketplace. The Russians cut EAA off in the middle of the stream to focus the factories on large military contracts. These contracts are more certain and $ lucrative than civilian sales. Product is slowly drying up around the globe and folks in wholesale, distribution and retail are getting frustrated as we and others like us are asking for what they can't get. RAA is a rookie Company and does not yet fully understand where they stand in the pecking order. Even if they do have all the required licenses they will likely play hell getting product either in volume or on time if at all for an extended period of time. Meanwhile Izhmash is not answering questions, not wanting to fess up on what they are doing in hopes of being able to later salvage the civilian work when the military well begins to run dry.

 

It is just a theory but makes sense to me.

 

W.

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I have a theory based on various comments and information found in the forum and marketplace.  The Russians cut EAA off in the middle of the stream to focus the factories on large military contracts.  These contracts are more certain and $ lucrative than civilian sales.  Product is slowly drying up around the globe and folks in wholesale, distribution and retail are getting frustrated as we and others like us are asking for what they can't get.  RAA is a rookie Company and does not yet fully understand where they stand in the pecking order.  Even if they do have all the required licenses they will likely play hell getting product either in volume or on time if at all for an extended period of time.  Meanwhile Izhmash is not answering questions, not wanting to fess up on what they are doing in hopes of being able to later salvage the civilian work when the military well begins to run dry.

 

It is just a theory but makes sense to me.

 

W.

 

Of all the ideas suggested, that probably makes the most sense. That happens in our market where a company jumps on military and police sales while leaving the public in the lurch. In a market as new as Russia's, where deals can be short and changed quite frequently (I studied this), this would be quite normal.

 

Basically, I studied Russian business for a report this past year and learned quite a bit, particularly that they have a way of overrepresenting themselves, not coming through, trying to change terms part way through, and all sorts of crazy stuff. EAA responded to one board member's angry E-mail something like "perhaps you want to try doing business with the Russians?"

 

In a nut shell, Russia is really good at giving you great deals for a very short time. Their former members can be the same way. Century Arms had a real wild time with Romanians after the SARs became popular. Sort of like. "Oh, so this is a great deal in your economy? Well then, we're raising our prices."

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The Russians cut EAA off in the middle of the stream to focus the factories on large military contracts.  These contracts are more certain and $ lucrative than civilian sales.  Product is slowly drying up around the globe and folks in wholesale, distribution and retail are getting frustrated as we and others like us are asking for what they can't get.

 

Good guess Wolverine. I reside in the city of Izhevsk, the place where Saiga is being manufactured, Izhmash HQ. Got a pal who works at Izhmash assembly shop (dont know proper term in English, sorry guys) - in a word, he's the guy who assembles the magazines. He's a 20 yrs old guy. Besides him, there are three more people in the assembly team which handles *all* Izhmash magazines needs - that is they assemble magazines for AKs, for Saiga-12, S-20, S .410, S.308 the list goes on. Of course there are more people in the magazine team (about 150 as he told me) who take care of other operations, but these 4 men are whose to *assemble* magazines from the parts.

 

My pal says that it takes him merely 8 seconds to assemble 1 AK magazine and 3 min (right, MINUTES) to assemble 1 Saiga-12 magazine (be that 5 or 8 rounder, difference is insignificant). Such a difference is attributed to the tech process - while AKs and AK magazines have being perfected for AGES, Saiga is relatively new kid in the block and the mag production technology yet have to improve to meet AK perfection (btw, speaking of small US companies trying to replicate Saiga mags...even Izhmash itself cannot devote enough resources to perfection it...) Also, not so much time ago QA (Quality Assurance) was filtering out 40% of ready S-12 mags and returning these back to the assembly shop for fixing this or that minor problem - now it's only 8% (mind you - Izhmash *never* sells mags which didnt pass QA).

 

So, assembling one Saiga-12 magazine takes my pal 22.5 times more time as compared with 1 AK magazine. And now another fact: he gets paid for 1 AK mag 4 (four) times MORE than for 1 Saiga-12 mag. Now you can calculate it yourselves what product - military AK or civilian Saiga-12 - is more lucrative for Izhmash. I know exactly how much he's paid for each AK or S-12 mag but I wont tell you - you wont believe it's sooooooooooo low.

 

My pal also says what they assemble Saiga-12 mags ONLY when there is room between assembling AK mags. There is absolutely NO plan for how many and by what date they MUST assemble certain number of Saiga-12 REGULAR 5 rounders (which come with Saiga-12) - I dont even speak 8 rounders which are optional accessoiry for S-12. Then Izhmash faces large military contracts (like current one with Venezuela) all the staff from civilian arms production lines are being used at military products production lines and civilian lines just STOP.

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Ishmash has more than enough production capability to handle the civilian and military markets. It is buisness, and it started with the 30 round 7.62mags, EAA found out it was not legal, Ishmash got mad, they had words, EAA was left in a bad spot., and no Saigas. Canoot blame 'em myself, at least they are still in buisness and employing people and not in prison. I just do what I always did when I wanted high capacity, I buy more mags....whatever they hold. If ya need more than 2 rounds your gonna lose anyhow :-)

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> Ishmash has more than enough production capability to handle the civilian and military markets.

 

Ishmash - maybe, but IZHMASH - doesnt. Or they rather might have enough caps but NOT enough skilled workforce. Besides having in buddies that guy from the assembly shop, I also got my collegemate as head of Izhmash's PR dept.

 

> BTW, acca47 probably lives with (or is) the dude who promised to make .308

> hi-caps. He sure ain't Russian....

 

Oh yeah....snake, SaigaFodder - could you step in and confirm where acca47 is from ;)?

 

> this comming from one married to a Ukrainian wife. She read his posts and says > he is in no way from the former USSR, Smell a troll?

 

I sure made less grammatical errors in my long post than you in this short one ;) but that doesnt mean a thing, does it? Come on - ask your beloved one what she'd want me to tell ya in a rude Russian and I'll do you the favor ;)

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I'm suprised that someone like ProMag hasn't stepped up to the plate and made some sheet metal or plastic S-12 mags.  They produce mags for every other gun out there.

 

-P.

 

 

I think it is based on their assessment of the size of the market. It takes capital to set up and run the magazines as well as labor cost. Why do it with high U.S. labor cost when the U.S. is sending work all over the globe to find cheap labor for all kinds of manufacturing operations.

 

After investment, there is distribution and marketing costs. How many mags at what price will they have to sell to recoup the investment and then make a profit for a niche rifle and shotgun in varying calibers and gauge sizes? We are not talking about mass quanties like the AK-47 or AR-15. We are talking about Russian made weapons with a unique magazine for each calibre. I don't see it happening across the board in the U.S. Some U.S. Company may build or buy them abroad and sell them here but I doubt they are willing to pay U.S. labor rates to make a specialized product for a reasonably limited market.

 

I have a gut hunch that if they ain't made in Russia they ain't gonna be mass produced. The seller of the firearm has every interest in providing mags for the rifles...........unless there is a more attractive customer to pursue, like miltary contracts with large volumes and fixed margins that offset fixed costs of operations and help drive profits unlike willy nilly civilian business.

 

But that is just my business opinion.

 

Wolverine :smoke:

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Acca47 sent me some stuff from Russia. (yes Mother Russia over the pond) so he either really IS Russian, or lives in Russia and is a transplant. Or he has mastered the art of teleportation. Either way, lets not piss off the ONLY source of reliable info and reasonably priced parts we have from over there? :rolleyes:

 

On a side note, I spoke with Ken at Tapco the other day, and they have been discussing making Saiga mags..they have to run ROI figs 1st, and then make a desicion.. it's only a matter of time guys...industry like this moves slow, but it does move.

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