Hudson Hornet 40 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Actually, you really don't understand. Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube. It's like that when you buy a car. Prices vary greatly from dealer to dealer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Scratch 91 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube. You keep saying "I understand...", and then turn around and say something else that demonstrates that you really don't understand. I could see where you are coming from if your example applied to this situation; if someone were charging way over market value for an item, hoping to lure in an unsuspecting buyer who didn't know the true value of the item, then yes; that might be considered a rip-off of sorts. This isn't what is happening with Atlantic. The price they are charging reflects the rising value of the S12 in the new market of high demand/low supply. They aren't ripping anyone off; they are charging what is now considered a realistic price. Like I said, your perspective of the value of the S12 is obsolete. This isn't 2 months ago. They are no longer cheap guns. Just like gold is no longer the $300 it was in 1997. That's the way it goes, and pointing fingers and making accusations at honorable companies that are just keeping up with the market isn't going to make cheap S12s available again. Edited March 25, 2011 by Mr. Scratch 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Guys, no offence to anyone but maybe we should just let this thread die instead of arguing with eachother. Just a suggestion. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blakc3 0 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Glad I got mine a few weeks ago from Atlantic Firearms! I saw the prices goin up everywhere and they had the best deal! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeep297 20 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Guys, no offence to anyone but maybe we should just let this thread die instead of arguing with eachother. Just a suggestion. What?!?!......but they were so close to convincing each other's to change their mind 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Guys, no offence to anyone but maybe we should just let this thread die instead of arguing with eachother. Just a suggestion. What?!?!......but they were so close to convincing each other's to change their mind it was mearly a suggestion . Argue amongst yourselves if thats how you wanna live your lives. Personally I'd like to talk about the positive aspects of Saigas, not bicker with other forum members about who knows what. Contrary to what Fred Durst thinks, it aint all about the he said she said bs. Edit: I do appreciate your humor tho! So close Edited March 25, 2011 by AZG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chaseface 41 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Guys, no offence to anyone but maybe we should just let this thread die instead of arguing with eachother. Just a suggestion. What?!?!......but they were so close to convincing each other's to change their mind hahaha so close!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardC1967 81 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I paid $794 for mine a month ago with taxes locally. If Kvar has them it would be $675 + $50 shipping and FFL. So was it worth $69 to have mine right now. Yes, yes it was. Don't feel bad, before any of this a year or two ago I paid $830 for mine. I saw the S12 for the 1st time on deadliest warrior: Spetznaz vs. Green berets. Never knew semi auto shotguns existed until then, so I decided I had to have it. Then I joined this forum, learned how much they went for online and started kicking myself in the ass. But now i don't feel so bad That's the show that got me interested in getting one too..paid $550.00 for mine at the local pawn shop(NIB) was able to do layaway and pay a little at a time,otherwise couldn't have afforded that much at one time..glad I got it when I did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I paid $794 for mine a month ago with taxes locally. If Kvar has them it would be $675 + $50 shipping and FFL. So was it worth $69 to have mine right now. Yes, yes it was. Don't feel bad, before any of this a year or two ago I paid $830 for mine. I saw the S12 for the 1st time on deadliest warrior: Spetznaz vs. Green berets. Never knew semi auto shotguns existed until then, so I decided I had to have it. Then I joined this forum, learned how much they went for online and started kicking myself in the ass. But now i don't feel so bad That's the show that got me interested in getting one too..paid $550.00 for mine at the local pawn shop(NIB) was able to do layaway and pay a little at a time,otherwise couldn't have afforded that much at one time..glad I got it when I did. Wow! That's a good deal from a pawn shop! Layaway and all. Good score Richard! Way better than $830. And I paid that like a week before I joined this forum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
themadride 3 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) God some people never even bother to take a college economics course and think they know everything Very happy to fify. Actually, you really don't understand. Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube. While, I'm not in complete agreement, the first half of this statement is much more reasonable and seems pretty darn different from your original posts to which I was replying. The only real problem now is your attitude. Apparently you equate my desire to have "some available at a higher price rather than none available" with purposefully getting screwed without lube by someone charging double the going rate for a product. You don't seem to be thinking into things very much. I would rather give some rudimentary impromptu economics BS that is correct and logical...than just spout plain old good fashioned BS that is wrong. Have a nice day. Edited March 26, 2011 by themadride 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chaseface 41 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 God some people never even bother to take a college economics course and think they know everything Very happy to fify. Actually, you really don't understand. Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube. While, I'm not in complete agreement, the first half of this statement is much more reasonable and seems pretty darn different from your original posts to which I was replying. The only real problem now is your attitude. Apparently you equate my desire to have "some available at a higher price rather than none available" with purposefully getting screwed without lube by someone charging double the going rate for a product. You don't seem to be thinking into things very much. I would rather give some rudimentary impromptu economics BS that is correct and logical...than just spout plain old good fashioned BS that is wrong. Have a nice day. Do not misquote me again. I know you didnt do it to piss me off, and that you were either making a point or a joke but please in the future if you plan on using the quote function and changing something put the changes in brackets or bold or something of that nature, so that it is obvious that you are in fact the one who made the changes. Otherwise it is very rude. Thank you Quote Link to post Share on other sites
themadride 3 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) God some people never even bother to take a college economics course and think they know everything Very happy to fify. Actually, you really don't understand. Actually I do understand. I'm not arguing a businesses right to a market baring profit. If the supply is low or their costs go up, the buyers price will increase. But some vendors go to far. Those are the ones that I don't like or do business with. They are the assholes that will look an uninformed buyer in the face and tell him a $500.00 gun is worth $1000.00, and smile while doing it. Now you feel free to snuggle on up to that guy and justify his actions with some rudimentary impromptu economics BS if you want. Just don't complain when he screws you without lube. While, I'm not in complete agreement, the first half of this statement is much more reasonable and seems pretty darn different from your original posts to which I was replying. The only real problem now is your attitude. Apparently you equate my desire to have "some available at a higher price rather than none available" with purposefully getting screwed without lube by someone charging double the going rate for a product. You don't seem to be thinking into things very much. I would rather give some rudimentary impromptu economics BS that is correct and logical...than just spout plain old good fashioned BS that is wrong. Have a nice day. Do not misquote me again. I know you didnt do it to piss me off, and that you were either making a point or a joke but please in the future if you plan on using the quote function and changing something put the changes in brackets or bold or something of that nature, so that it is obvious that you are in fact the one who made the changes. Otherwise it is very rude. Thank you Sure. No Problem. My Bad. What I meant to say was; Some people have very little education, almost no understanding on a subject, and still manage to act like they know everything on a subject. They sometimes go so far as to actually make fun of an educated individual on that very subject. I don't blame them for not getting an education. I don't blame them for being "wrong" on a subject. But the so-called "rudimentary" economics lesson is on par with the obscenely basic level of understanding I'm encountering. I didn't start touting my degree in economics and I didn't throw out big economic jargon to try to dominate the conversation. The fact that you folks decided to attack my education at the first whiff that I might have one, when it applies to the very subject on which you are arguing, is pathetic. You can say changing your quote around in good fun (and it was obvious per the "fify" acronym) is rude, but your original quote was truly rude and doubly a joke. Thank you. Edited March 26, 2011 by themadride Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) You keep saying "I understand...", and then turn around and say something else that demonstrates that you really don't understand. I could see where you are coming from if your example applied to this situation; if someone were charging way over market value for an item, hoping to lure in an unsuspecting buyer who didn't know the true value of the item, then yes; that might be considered a rip-off of sorts. This isn't what is happening with Atlantic. The price they are charging reflects the rising value of the S12 in the new market of high demand/low supply. They aren't ripping anyone off; they are charging what is now considered a realistic price. Like I said, your perspective of the value of the S12 is obsolete. This isn't 2 months ago. They are no longer cheap guns. Just like gold is no longer the $300 it was in 1997. That's the way it goes, and pointing fingers and making accusations at honorable companies that are just keeping up with the market isn't going to make cheap S12s available again. Please read up... It's clear that I never pointed a finger at Atlantic. If fact, I completely absolved them from the point I was making. My "beef" (if you can call it that) is not with anyone specific. It's with asshole vendors who are more concerned with how much money they can put into their pocket instead of the customer's satisfaction. I am also well aware of the S-12's "value". FYI, it's currenlty selling for more that it's worth. GL/HF. Edited March 27, 2011 by Bridis 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaniel 7 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 As nobody can keep them in stock at the recently higher prices, apparently the value went up. They may be selling for more than what they are worth to you, but if people are buying them the value clearly went up. The value on items changes. If they are selling like hotcakes, they are not overpriced, considering they are not some life-necessary option where people have no option but to buy even if the price inflates over the real value. FWIW they are now priced above what they are worth to me as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jeep297 20 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) Keep it up guys, you're almost there! All we need is one or two more posts and I think we'll convince him to change his mind, apologize, and see things like us. In fact, if we barrage him for another page perhaps we can even get him to buy one for $800 off of gunbroker Edited March 27, 2011 by Jeep297 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mordecai 1 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) This may have already been said, but at $700+ prices, you can't tell me that domestic copies can't be cheaper. Please, let's take a page out of the book the rest of the world is playing by... Edited March 27, 2011 by mordecai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
supertex 242 Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 the last few units available, act now!!! $674.95 sgl12-01 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 As nobody can keep them in stock at the recently higher prices, apparently the value went up. They may be selling for more than what they are worth to you, but if people are buying them the value clearly went up. The value on items changes. If they are selling like hotcakes, they are not overpriced, considering they are not some life-necessary option where people have no option but to buy even if the price inflates over the real value. FWIW they are now priced above what they are worth to me as well. Did you pay $650.00+ for an S-12? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brandino 0 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) Edited March 29, 2011 by Brandino Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaniel 7 Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 As nobody can keep them in stock at the recently higher prices, apparently the value went up. They may be selling for more than what they are worth to you, but if people are buying them the value clearly went up. The value on items changes. If they are selling like hotcakes, they are not overpriced, considering they are not some life-necessary option where people have no option but to buy even if the price inflates over the real value. FWIW they are now priced above what they are worth to me as well. Did you pay $650.00+ for an S-12? No, I paid $589 just before they went up. I scratched my head on it for 3 days before pulling the trigger, deciding if it was worth that to me. Over $600, I would have found another platform to do my summer project on. Given the $700+ prices now, I would be out of the market. This is how the free market works; as the price goes up, demand goes down. Eventually they balance out at the value of the item. As I said, value changes. If the BATF issued an official statement tomorrow that they had decided against acting on the shotgun study and were not going to be issuing any restrictions, the threat of a supply cutoff would be gone and I am sure demand would plummet. If demand plummeted, so would the value and eventually the prices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redrider 0 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Anyway, does anyone think the "Study" will result in a ban? Have the imports actually stopped? If it does not, maybe prices will go down again. izmash has people in the batf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MAAnew 162 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 One of our distributors called and told us 3 weeks ago with them at $790 and we paid that for 100 of them. They were gone in 36 hours. We just received 100 more and have them on our website at $695. We were told the next shipment, they will be $729 with retail being at $799, but they won't ship until 3 days after ATF ruling. With that being said, there are currently 6 companies with permission to import them. If the ATF study ends without an anti-Saiga ruling, you will be able to buy a Saiga 12 from Mississippi Auto Arms and just about any other online retailer by December for $399. OP, why are you guys charging $739.00 for a stock S-12? I'd really like to here the rational from the vendors prospective. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 One of our distributors called and told us 3 weeks ago with them at $790 and we paid that for 100 of them. They were gone in 36 hours. We just received 100 more and have them on our website at $695. We were told the next shipment, they will be $729 with retail being at $799, but they won't ship until 3 days after ATF ruling. With that being said, there are currently 6 companies with permission to import them. If the ATF study ends without an anti-Saiga ruling, you will be able to buy a Saiga 12 from Mississippi Auto Arms and just about any other online retailer by December for $399. Guys, I dont think you can get any better response from a vendor than MAA's post. Whether it ultimately turns out to be exactly correct or not, thats probably the best info you have to go on. You might as well consider the Saiga a commodity, just like wheat, corn, gold, platinum, or anythging else that is traded on the floor in NY, Chi, and around the world. A countless number of things beyond anyones control can affect the market - including panic buyers Cheers, Harv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Izhmash is slacking also. This is from Rusmilitary 28.03.11 - We are on STAND-BY.. (goods are packed & ready to go), but still waiting to be invoiced by Izhmash for March delivery.. We'll keep you updated on progress daily.. when info is available.. 28.03.11 - THE GENERAL DELAY IN THE SUPPLY OF FIREARMS to the UK market is caused by Izhmash.. some of the guns were ordered by us back in November'10 (!) but we are still awaiting delivery.. We've done all we can.. but check our stock updates below regularly.. as it seems like after a long winter, Izhmash is now coming out of hibernation and promising to deliver 4 orders in one go ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Hopefully this will all pass & things will settle down a bit with the market & supply . Their are alot of firms that stricly focus on Saiga 12 items and a ban would be crippling . We would also probably see no more new innovations for the product line since the new supply of donor shotguns had dried up . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 I paid 540.00 in advance with an FFL that I have given alot of money to over the years. That was sixty days ago. yesterday I did five hours of research. Atlantic had the best price. Called my dealer whose employees are tired of seeing me and asked for the owner. no go. asked the employee about ordering from Atlantic. He said they were busy to just email him the info. that done , at 4pm he emails back a lame excuse about not being able to get to the site.<_<i sent him a link to the specific page. No reply. Because of all the BS going on and the torture of waiting i called Atlantic today.Was told four S-12 109s in stock.Quickly found a small time FFL with a 10.00 fee and ordered the S-12. cost 802.37 OUCH. Really needed to do something quick because im sitting on 1000.00+ in conversion parts and mags. My "former" dealer must have grown too big and too busy. If Atlantic comes through i will not feel cheated by them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 DANE AXE , please email us your Saiga 12 user name we will hook you up with a few extra goodies !! Please mention your recent purchase & this thread. sales@atlanticfirearms.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwentyNizzo 66 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 One of our distributors called and told us 3 weeks ago with them at $790 and we paid that for 100 of them. They were gone in 36 hours. We just received 100 more and have them on our website at $695. We were told the next shipment, they will be $729 with retail being at $799, but they won't ship until 3 days after ATF ruling. With that being said, there are currently 6 companies with permission to import them. If the ATF study ends without an anti-Saiga ruling, you will be able to buy a Saiga 12 from Mississippi Auto Arms and just about any other online retailer by December for $399. OP, why are you guys charging $739.00 for a stock S-12? I'd really like to here the rational from the vendors prospective. In that case, I'll be buying my 2nd come December. I just feel there's too much $$$ tied up in this stuff to shut down the market. Plus, as imported, the Saiga is clearly a sporting shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chrisAlaska 0 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 I hope MAA is correct in his assessment. I'd buy two for $399. It's also worth noting that in addition to supply and demand, there are definitely a couple of other possible factors: currency rates, and commodity pricing. The dollar has taken a pretty good hit against the ruble over the past year, and just about all metals have seen significant increases in prices over the past year. Obviously energy (basic input to production) has gone up as well. Nevermind Saigas, I wish I had bought silver when it was selling at $12/ounce just a few years ago. It's coming up on $40/ounce. Anyway, just wanted to point out that it's not always strictly about supply and demand (related to the end product). I noticed that the Saiga 223s have gone up in price a bit too on CSS since I bought mine. The 308s seem pricier too (although I didn't buy mine through CSS). Inflation's a bitch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THEMRMITCH 3 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 (edited) I fully understand prices going up and have no qualms about it. I am waiting to see how they will do this in a nice way. Edited April 3, 2011 by TheMrMitch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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