Would folks be interested in a new US-made semi auto 12 gauge platform

[schultze13 354]

I would be interested in a belt fed S12

 

 

Here is a working one thats no april fools joke.http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iX7vwivR6cE

Edited March 23, 2011 by SCHULTZE

[jamesmadison 55]

Pretty cool! Thanks Schultze! Notice he isn't shoulder mounting that thing!

I would be interested in a belt fed S12

 

 

Here is a working one thats no april fools joke.http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iX7vwivR6cE

[AtlSaiga 25]

keltec semi KSG

 

 

THIS - or something similar with detachable mags.

 

Since theres already an infrastructure for s12 mag development, it would behoove them to use them. That would make them WINNING!

[clifton 354]

We have a prototype, but thats all im saying..

[jamesmadison 55]

Especially if they were painted with tigers blood!!

keltec semi KSG

 

 

THIS - or something similar with detachable mags.

 

Since theres already an infrastructure for s12 mag development, it would behoove them to use them. That would make them WINNING!

[purduepurdy 18]

We have a prototype, but thats all im saying..

 

Unless we see pics, it ain't true

[BobAsh 582]

This has been discussed at great length before, but suffice it to say that designing it is not the problem. The problem is cost. If you think a small manufacturer can compete with Izhmash, you'd better look into it a bit more closely.

[mike1972 1]

It looks like there are a couple companies working on this, but they will probably go the route of the CMMG prototype.... They are made of unobtainium lol... As in cannot be obtained... On the bright side, I seen the post from TAC47 mentioning something... I will be watching closely ( using a voice like Montgomery Burns from the Simpsons)

[kindapointless 22]

I will take any of them if I can get a rifled barrel. And maybe a 10 gauge or 8 gauge. Ah saga 8 has such a nice ring to it. Maybe even a 12 that's 3 1/2 mag. Yes it would be pointless but oh so fun. I just want 2 ounce slugs for the armored squirrels

[HappYBallZ 31]

No option of too high in your poll...

 

$800 is wwaaayyy too expensive for me in my opinion, especially for a stock- sporting style of saiga 12.

 

If it was 'original" style with all the amenities of military version Russian saiga then maybe, still kind of high honestly.

 

At least for me. I would probably go on up to $600, and at that price it would not be my first choice of a weapon to buy or own. :\

 

I would imagine it shouldn't cost more than ~$250 to make this weapon here if the factory is big enough and modestly automated. So it's hard to convice me to pay anything higher.

Edited March 26, 2011 by HappYBallZ

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Like King of the Hill said, I have the Sig 556R (Russian) fires 7.62x 39 but it's a short stroke like an AR and takes standard AK magazines. Very accurate gun too.

[csmw 98]

Years ago I remember seeing 12 gauge that looked like an oversized M-16. According to the info in the mag, it was designed by a guy named Max Atchisson. The picture I saw showed three hull in the air and the rest of the picture was crisp, evidently the recoil was emminently controllable!

 

You have a good memory...that prototype gun came out in the mid-eighties.

It was full-auto and aimed at law enforcent. My understanding was that orders were placed but never filled.

 

Max A. was a genius!

If you have a Ciener/CMMG 22 kit, he is the inventor. A friend of mine visited him years ago, and saw decades worth of amazing designs that were never introduced to the market. He was always looking for a project that would be adopted by the military, so he 'shelved' most of his designs.

[mordecai 1]

The American version would surely cost quite a bit more unless the parts were made in China/Mexico and the gun was assembled in America. Never-the-less I would be interested in a US version.

 

See, I just don't see this. If they can crank out 870's for $250 retail - I swear there are less moving parts in a Saiga. It's stamped and a shotgun barrel - how much cheaper can you get?

 

This has been discussed at great length before, but suffice it to say that designing it is not the problem. The problem is cost. If you think a small manufacturer can compete with Izhmash, you'd better look into it a bit more closely.

 

And I think this is the point - they may not have to compete with Izhmash much longer.

Edited March 27, 2011 by mordecai

[HappYBallZ 31]

 

And I think this is the point - they may not have to compete with Izhmash much longer.

 

I hope ATF will not go that crazy... I already cry by looking at a hiper-infalted price of "stock" saiga-12 as it is.

[Jeep297 20]

Forget cloning the Saiga 12, my bigger question is why has no one else tried making their own version/new design of a semi-auto magazine fed shotgun?! I saw that someone recently did an AR type clone but why has it taken this long and why don't we have more options in this configuration? Is there some aversion to a magazine fed shotgun to most?

[ewoketeer 35]

The possibility is that most shotgunners, or those aspiring to be, didn't seriously consider that an option until recently; the manufacturers didn't want to stick their necks out for a product for which there was little call for.

[BobAsh 582]

And I think this is the point - they may not have to compete with Izhmash much longer.

 

My point is, it would take a manufacturer THE SIZE of Izhmash to deliver a similar product for a similar price.

 

Anybody that thinks a CNC job shop can produce a complete semi-auto shotgun for $600 is sorely mistaken.

[yooper14.5 84]

I will take any of them if I can get a rifled barrel. And maybe a 10 gauge or 8 gauge. Ah saga 8 has such a nice ring to it. Maybe even a 12 that's 3 1/2 mag. Yes it would be pointless but oh so fun. I just want 2 ounce slugs for the armored squirrels

 

hell yeah!!

[reapur 1]

I'm also for a Mag or Drum fed KSG type shotty.

[HappYBallZ 31]

Forget cloning the Saiga 12, my bigger question is why has no one else tried making their own version/new design of a semi-auto magazine fed shotgun?! I saw that someone recently did an AR type clone but why has it taken this long and why don't we have more options in this configuration? Is there some aversion to a magazine fed shotgun to most?

 

I would understand if there was a reason for this but why? Alot easier to copy/improve a working design than to spend tons of R&D money on a completely new platforms. I mean look at Chinese

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Forget cloning the Saiga 12, my bigger question is why has no one else tried making their own version/new design of a semi-auto magazine fed shotgun?! I saw that someone recently did an AR type clone but why has it taken this long and why don't we have more options in this configuration? Is there some aversion to a magazine fed shotgun to most?

Fear of spending a fortune, only to have the ATF change their minds and classify it as a DD 3 months after it hits the market.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

the maxrounds drum is nearly a identical clone of the AA drum. I'm sure you can expect the same performance and durability AA have built their reputation on.

Man did those dumb shits copy the wrong drum!

[Jeep297 20]

<br />

<br />Forget cloning the Saiga 12, my bigger question is why has no one else tried making their own version/new design of a semi-auto magazine fed shotgun?! I saw that someone recently did an AR type clone but why has it taken this long and why don't we have more options in this configuration? Is there some aversion to a magazine fed shotgun to most?<br />

<br /><br />I would understand if there was a reason for this but why? Alot easier to copy/improve a working design than to spend tons of R&D money on a completely new platforms. I mean look at Chinese <img src='http://forum.saiga-12.com/public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

Why, because we already have the Saiga 12 and I own 3 of them. I like innovation that comes from companies like KAC and don't mind paying extra for something different, yet high quality. Keltec knows innovation but lacks quality, another Saiga copy will create quality but lacks innovation. I'd love to see both in one product but to each their own. I also understand why people like to stick with what's proven, just me sure to remember that all products start unproven.

[Jeep297 20]

<br />

<br />Forget cloning the Saiga 12, my bigger question is why has no one else tried making their own version/new design of a semi-auto magazine fed shotgun?! I saw that someone recently did an AR type clone but why has it taken this long and why don't we have more options in this configuration? Is there some aversion to a magazine fed shotgun to most?<br />

<br />Fear of spending a fortune, only to have the ATF change their minds and classify it as a DD 3 months after it hits the market.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

Great point, thanks.

[Scott Kenny 144]

I voted for a box-fed shotgun, no AK compatible parts (sorry, saiga guys). I'm looking for a 3-gun shottie, and detachable magazines means Open class, with optics and muzzle brakes. $1400 is Benelli/Beretta/SX4 territory, and those are the go-to guns for high-end competition. If I'm going to have to pay $1000 for a competition shotgun base, let's get one that's built for competition to begin with! That means AK reliable, but easy-change mags and ambidextrous controls as a minimum.

 

I can buy a US-made Remington 870 for $300, but an 1100 (no more complex than an 870, and has parts that interchange with the 870!) is $1000 or so new. An 11-87 is $700. I don't thing you will see an american-made semiauto shotgun for less than $700 msrp, even with a stamped receiver instead of a forged(?) one like the Remington guns. Gas guns take more machining than pumps, and very precise machining on the barrels.

 

Assuming ATF doesn't lose their collective minds over the study, getting a local-production license isn't impossible, but it will drive up the cost of the weapon some. Probably about as much as importing one, plus a little bit, since you'd need to cover the cost of the mfg plant, too. Depending on how many Saigas they sell in the US, Izmash might even consider moving an assembly line here themselves!

 

Besides, even if ATF does name-ban "Saiga," it wouldn't be too hard for someone to just rename it. After all, "AR-15"s were on the old AWB as a weapon that could not be sold, but nobody actually made a weapon sold under that name. Colt called theirs a National Match, etc. Just because everyone calls it something, doesn't make it the product name.

 

The ideal solution would be to get shooting competitions legislated as a 'sporting purpose', of course, since there are a significant number of people using Saiga shotguns as a competition gun. Time to put a bug in the NRA's ear! The reason it would need to be legislated is to prevent a later officerholder at ATF from reneging on that decision. Law trumps regulation, but all are trumped by the Constitution (in theory). The law trumping regulation level is much better developed and defended, however.

[Ignition 9]

There already is a us made, box fed 12g, hell it was specifically designed to be a masterkey setup, with a pistolgrip & stock add-ons that came along later. Now can you get a hold of them is another story indeed. (hell it looks like they are using saiga mags too) Only down side is its not semi-auto even though it was initially planned to be as such. So if you could get someone to build on C-more's design... wooolah answer, now cost is a totally different animal all together.

 

XM26 - MASS (Modular Accessory Shotgun System)

 

 

 

M26 program history - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m26-program.htm

 

* Caliber: 12 gauge

* Operation: Straight pull bolt-action.

* Capacity: 5 round detachable magazine. (Uses saiga mags from the looks of it)

* Ammunition: 2.75 and 3 in lethal, less-lethal and breaching rounds.

* Barrel length: 7.75 in (197 mm) with integral breaching stand-off adapter.

 

Under-barrel version:

* Overall length: 16.5 in (419 mm)

* Weight: 2 lb 11 oz (1.22 kg)

 

Stand-alone version:

* Overall length: 24 in (610 mm) (stock collapsed)

* Weight: 4 lb 3 oz (3.80 kg)

[dowork1021 64]

Refering to what Mr. kenny said before, the reason an 1100 cost 3 times as much is cuz people will pay that much to have a tactical semi auto. Sure they could probably mass produce a Saiga clone for 300-400 a pop but people would and will pay 800 plus just because of of the charecteristics of it... I think Mossberg should make a box fed 930 spx.

[Ignition 9]

I would also love to see this sucker built in the US

 

Akdal MKA 1919 semi-automatic shotgun (Turkey)

 

From wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akdal_MKA_1919

Production history

Designer Akdal Arms (Ucyildiz Arms A.S.)

Designed 2006

Produced 2007

Number built Approx. >1500

 

Specifications (Akdal MKA 1919)

Weight 3.25kg unloaded

Length 964 mm

Barrel length 470 mm

Cartridge 12 Gauge

Action gas operated, semi-automatic

Feed system 5 round detachable box

 

Akdal MKA 1919 semi-automatic shotgun uses a conventional gas-operated action which is located around the support tube that runs below the barrel. The return spring is also located around the same support tube which is concealed by an enlarged polymer handguard. The MKA 1919 barrel is can be quickly removed from upper receiver. To charge the shotgun, the charging handle on the receiver needs to be pulled. The upper receiver is manufactured from an aluminum alloy while the lower receiver, along with pistol grip and shoulder stock, is manufactured as one piece from impact-resistant polymer. Akdal MKA 1919 semi-automatic shotgun has a 5 round detachable box magazine. The magazine catch is identical to the M16 magazine catch and is located on the lower receiver. Manual safety also duplicates M16-style being located on the left side of the receiver above the pistol grip.[1] Standard sights include a front post installed on the M16-style removable base and a detachable M16A2-style carrying handle with built-in diopter sight. On the upper receiver, an integral Picatinny rail can be placed which will accept detachable carrying handle or optional red-dot or other optical sight attachments.

[AtlSaiga 25]

We have a prototype, but thats all im saying..

 

 

if it costs a grand, forget it. sorry but 600 is the limit for shotguns. and actually, I paid 600 for my VEPR K 7.62x39, so really, there isn't a need to spend more on a rifle, unless you're talking about some kind of ridiculously scoped out sniper rig.

 

hand guns, I paid around 550 for my glock, and around 350 for a mossberg 590. So if you think about it, there shouldnt be a need to spend much more for a quality piece of hardware - unless you have a very special and specific purpose that needs to be filled; like anti-material, then yes, you'll need something at least .338 and in the $1000+ price range.

[joshdr 0]

I'm hoping for S12 parts kits with US made barrels.