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Let us know when there is a conviction... K!

 

Saiga forum has NOTHING to do with Etac other than it '"Rents" Forum space to them.

If there was an agenda, don't you think this thread would get axed, too?

 

I'm NOT looking for anyone's approval, Simply stating "The way it is".

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Your rules are more like saying Applebees can block a news article about them in the restaurant section stating that they failed a health inspection because they buy ads in the newspaper. The only allowable place for such information would be limited to the editorial page, to continue the analogy.

I think its more like saying the newspaper can't put anti applebees stuff in their own add space- but are free to put it anywhere else in the newspaper. You have to think of the vender subforums as what they are- a place to advertise, anounce new products, and answer questions.. Not many people want to pay for a section that's used to humiliate them. I don't like E-tac, but just because in this one case it seems like it would be good to stop letting venders mod their sections doesn't mean it would be. For example, if you didn't let them mod it anyone could make shill accounts and trash their subforums that they are paying for (and not just for etac, good venders too; some customers suck).

 

I think having E-tac onboard is a bad thing for the forum, but to start attacking the privaleges of all venders because one sucks is probably not the best solution. A better structured feedback forum probably wouldn't be a bad idea. Personally I wish they'd just get kicked out so people could trust that any vender on this forum was a good one. They're consistently horrible.

 

It's a rough analogy, because in a newspaper, people can't ask questions or post positive reviews real time like they can in the vendor section here. It does not give the appearance of being advertising space or space edited by the businesses themselves to someone new to the forum. Yes, after a few weeks, you figure it out, but until then, it just looks like an area organized by manufacturer to make it easier for them to share information.

 

Anyway, I still find this humorous that nobody can even discuss the downsides of certain forum rules without being accused of "attacking" things. Nobody's attacking anything. Nobody's hating anything. I'm only answering the question posed- "why would anyone send them money?" The answer is because the way things are structured here, E-TAC looks better than it really is. Period.

 

ETA: I pay for premium business listings on many internet directories, and anybody can post negative reviews of me even though I pay to be there. I can reply to the reviews, but I cannot delete them. Again, the way it works here is very much against precedent, so I did not know I needed to be aware of this possibility.

Edited by Raleigh Saiga

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1) if you did not know or "deceived" by the appearance, then you obviously did not read the rules when you signed on... period.

2) you CAN discuss negatives. this thread is proof. you just can't do it in the paid for vendor section...

3) again, it is the way it is... Don't like it.. appeal to Admin.. Mods don't make rules, we simply enforce them.

 

ETA: I could care less how it works on the "rest" of the internet.

I do appologise that you are a bit slow on the uptake as far as your understanding or about your "opinion" on how the forum is structured.

 

 

You would make an AWESOME anti gunner!

 

it's the guns fault.. not the shooter! or it's the forum's fault, not the vendor.....

 

again, Caveat Emptor.

 

If you give ANYOBODY money without knowing what you are getting into, YOU are the idiot...

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How many newspapers has anyone ever seen or worked for, that allow their readers to decide how they should run the show? :rolleyes:

 

They have an editorial page where readers are allowed to voice the opinions that THEY decide whether or not they want to print.

 

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Again with the name calling and personal insults, Juggernaut. Why is this necessary? I don't think it is serving the purpose you think it is.

 

I'll be happy to eat crow if you can point me to anything that expressly says or otherwise implies that business member sections are edited by the vendors themselves. I just looked again, and cannot find it anywhere. Please show me the rules that you say I didn't read, as I can only find the ones reference at http://forum.saiga-1...tion=boardrules, which make no mention whatsoever of this.

 

 

As far as caveat emptor goes, the entire point of this is that the forum rules make it harder to know what you're getting into with business members, even to the point that you think you're going with a well-reviewed vendor when in fact, you're not. So, this is getting like a dog chasing its tail, here.

 

And Cobra, I've said twice now that the newspaper thing is an imperfect analogy. The problem is that there is nothing else out there that has rules like this forum. That's fine, but there is nothing that makes this obvious to a new participant. Besides, EVERY newspaper lets their readers decide how they're running the show. Otherwise, the paper (now news website) wouldn't have an audience. How do I know? My family was in the newspaper business from 1884 to 2003.

 

You guys can have at it now with the sarcasm and name calling...

Edited by Raleigh Saiga
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Again with the name calling and personal insults, Juggernaut. Why is this necessary? I don't think it is serving the purpose you think it is.

 

 

I have yet to get personal... but you have no problem making accusations against the board..

 

are you only here to sir the turd? if not you make your intentions most unclear, perhaps if you had a better self description on your profile page, you would be far less misleading and people who don't know you would get a better idea of who you are? I mean are you busy speaking into the breeze because you have something to say or like the sound of your own voice? does what you say hold any merit and do you have any credibility as a member? Is it unclear to you that you can edit the content of your own post? why would this be any different for a buisness member? one would make the logical conclusion that perhaps, there may be some extended privileges to buisness level membership. The rules state clearly that one has to be a buisness member to conduct buisness level sales so one would assume that if one has a presence here that they are in fact a paid sponsor.

 

(I'm not losin' ya here, am I.) I am running out of time to play with you this evening...

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Besides, EVERY newspaper lets their readers decide how they're running the show. Otherwise, the paper (now news website) wouldn't have an audience. How do I know? My family was in the newspaper business from 1884 to 2003.

 

 

 

You realize that same logic works here right? Needs an audience, paying venders, that sort of thing. That's about the only part of your analogy that actually works, even if it's the part that you said was different.

 

But I'll still admit it is a bit misleading. Have you tried to contact Makc with your opinion? Otherwise this is kind of barking up the wrong tree.. Maybe ask for a more prominent place in the rules to remove confusion? Just making suggestions on how you could constructively approach this.

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I'm one of the ones that could be out a good deal of money and I don't blame the forum, at all. I made the decision back then to go with E-Tac. And it did not turn out the way I hoped it would. My research told me it might take a while, but just figured if I was patient and paid early I might get lucky. But as usual with being the nice guy my order probably just sat there, and sat there, and sat there. While if I had called every week and bitched and bitched and bitched maybe it would of been done by now *shrug*. Who knows.

 

I finally got another response from Esteban yesterday. Said he'd get a date for me ASAP, and that it was still waiting on a rail, and paint, etc.. I didn't mention that that is what I was told last year, that it was short a rail, and needed paint. Nor did I mention the call I got, last year, asking if they could change my paint scheme and do it all black, that it was getting done and it'd look great.... but now, it's still waiting on paint again. So while he responded finally, I have no expectations I'll hear back anytime soon. Like I said, it's been waiting on a rail for a year now.

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I'd call back, ask how long it takes to do what he says hes doing, and then call him as soon as it's supposed to be finished.. Repeat if neccesary.

 

I'm bad at being rude on the phone- so thats my polite way of continuing to harass slow companies that fail to hold up to their promises.

Edited by volkov

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Juggernaut... You really are not a good representative for this forum. I searched the site before buying from E-tac. I found some negative feedback, but was overwhelmed by the positives in their "rented" forum. I am not a forum regular or a Saiga expert. I used this forum to do my research and it presented a skewed view. My money is being used to pay for the "rented" space instead of building my gun. With policies like this, a competing forum that provides true feedback no matter who is paying for what might be necessary.

 

Also, for someone who keeps claiming to not "make the rules", you sure do defend them as if they are yours. Any legitimate company would not partner with a company that is participating in fraud. This fourm is partnered with Etac. There is no other way to describe the relationship. You have made it clear that the forum will support any behavior as long as they get paid "hush money".

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Juggernaut... You really are not a good representative for this forum.Thanks! I searched the site before buying from E-tac.A WISE move. I found some negative feedback, but was overwhelmed by the positives in their "rented" forum. Their Space I am not a forum regular or a Saiga expert. I used this forum to do my research and it presented a skewed view. My money is being used to pay for the "rented" space instead of building my gun. Your Money? you are not even a contributor. With policies like this, a competing forum that provides true feedback no matter who is paying for what might be necessary. You are welcome to star one!

 

Also, for someone who keeps claiming to not "make the rules", you sure do defend them as if they are yours. I'm a Mod, it's my Job. No more, no less.. You don't have to like it. Any legitimate company would not partner with a company that is participating in fraud. We are not partnered, they rent space.This fourm is partnered with Etac. No, we are not. There is no other way to describe the relationship. You have made it clear that the forum will support any behavior as long as they get paid "hush money". No, they have the right to run the space they rent the way they want too. no more, no less.... you are welcome to leave all the feedback you want in the feedback section, (the feedback section is for .... Feedback..) it ain't that hard to fuigure out...

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Etac has over 1k of my money. I don't have a gun. They are using that money to buy space here right??? You are accepting my stolen money in return for marketing space.

 

You can try to justify the forums "rent" policy, but what you are doing is unethical. You are selling space to someone who is lying and stealing from your community. Try to justify it any way you want, but that is wrong.

 

I work for a website and magazine publishing company. We would never allow this to happen to our community. We protect their best interests as we actually care about them.

 

Eric

Edited by bluebear
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Etac has over 1k of my money. I don't have a gun. They are using that money to buy space here right??? You are accepting my stolen money in return for marketing space.

 

You can try to justify the forums "rent" policy, but what you are doing is unethical. You are selling space to someone who is lying and stealing from your community. Try to justify it any way you want, but that is wrong.

 

I work for a website and magazine publishing company. We would never allow this to happen to our community. We protect their best interests as we actually care about them.

 

Eric

 

Look, "I" DO NOT allow it.. you need to contact admin.. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FINICAL OPERATIONS OF SAIGA 12 FORUM!!!!

NOR do I accept any money from the buisness members here for day to day operations. NOR do I get PAID to MOD here...

It's ALSO illegal to publicly make false accusations as you are doing to me! IF you have a problem with the fact buisness members can edit their own section take it up with ADMIN & Business members.

 

Other than that, I uphold the rules I'm asked uphold....

 

Go back to your UTOPIAN online community if you dislike this one so much.... by all means...

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You are making it too hard for them to understand Jugger.

 

Some how you have to dum it dwn to lke a thurd grade lvl. If maybe then they can undrstnd admins are diff frum mods.

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Admin is BLUE

Mods are Purple

Business Members are Orange

Contributors are Gold

Non contributing members are green

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Etac has over 1k of my money. I don't have a gun. They are using that money to buy space here right??? You are accepting my stolen money in return for marketing space.

 

You can try to justify the forums "rent" policy, but what you are doing is unethical. You are selling space to someone who is lying and stealing from your community. Try to justify it any way you want, but that is wrong.

 

I work for a website and magazine publishing company. We would never allow this to happen to our community. We protect their best interests as we actually care about them.

 

Eric

 

Also, do you have charges pending? has there been a theft conviction?

Or simply more accusations?

I guess your "perfect" community does not believe in due process....

 

Personally, I dislike the way some folks here run their businesses. but to be a Mod here, you have to put those feelings aside..

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You are the one defending the business practice of the forums. If you don't agree just be quiet, quit defending the forum and stick to moderating. This is obviously none of your business.

 

I don't have to wait for a conviction to know for a fact that Etac has my money and I don't have a gun. I am one of many who are in the same boat. This was a thread started by me and you took it off track. just stay out of it.

 

 

 

 

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You are the one defending the business practice of the forums. If you don't agree just be quiet, quit defending the forum and stick to moderating. This is obviously none of your business.

 

I don't have to wait for a conviction to know for a fact that Etac has my money and I don't have a gun. I am one of many who are in the same boat. This was a thread started by me and you took it off track. just stay out of it.

 

 

 

 

 

No, I simply cleared up the fact that the FORUM and etac are DIFFERENT! Unfair/unrealistic/FALSE statements were made about the FORUM!

Again, it's my JOB!

 

E-Tac and Saiga-12.com ARE NOT the same!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZIvgQ9ik48

 

Other than that, I wish you the best in your efforts to get your gun/money back...

 

Just don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining...

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One more point... you are saying that I am wrong for putting you in the same boat as the admins. First, you are an agent of the admins selected to carry out their will on the forum.

 

Second, your first reply to this thread began with what word???? WE! You then went on to say OURS.... WE and OURS are words of first person ownership. We were complaining about forum policy and you come in guns ablazin and group yourself immediately with the owners of the forum. I'm sorry if we became confused based on your own communication.

 

Here is your quote to jog your memory before your meeting with your lawyer over my "illegal" responses:

We "allow it?"... please.. It's THEIR SECTION! NOT OURS! they paid for it... This is why we have a feedback section.. as you see the thread has been untouched by staff.

(I suppose we are manipulating or conspiring SOMEHOW... after all, it's the internet!!!)

Stick to moderating instead of giving you opinions on topics you have nothing to add to.

 

And please... quit trying to act like the forum is innocent in all of this. They enable Etac to have a position of influence in this forum. The forum has full control to eliminate this influence and they choose not to. Everyone understands that Etac and the forum are different. If that is what you think this is about, I think you need to re-read everyone's comments. The issue is that the forum is aiding Etac in screwing over forum members and allowing them to falsey represent the overall impression of their work and customer service. Tell me how this isn't true?

Edited by bluebear
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One more point... you are saying that I am wrong for putting you in the same boat as the admins. First, you are an agent of the admins selected to carry out their will on the forum.

 

Second, your first reply to this thread began with what word???? WE! You then went on to say OURS.... WE and OURS are words of first person ownership. We were complaining about forum policy and you come in guns ablazin and group yourself immediately with the owners of the forum. I'm sorry if we became confused based on your own communication.

 

Here is your quote to jog your memory before your meeting with your lawyer over my "illegal" responses:

We "allow it?"... please.. It's THEIR SECTION! NOT OURS! they paid for it... This is why we have a feedback section.. as you see the thread has been untouched by staff.

(I suppose we are manipulating or conspiring SOMEHOW... after all, it's the internet!!!)

Stick to moderating instead of giving you opinions on topics you have nothing to add to.

 

Stick out of the forums buisness and stop with the blanket accusations with nothing to back it up but bullshit rhetoric...

 

You complaint about Etac is fine.. I'm just calling bullshit on the rest of it..

 

Right, Their section to Mod.. not ours.. as in THEY (the businesses) moderate their own sections...

 

WE moderate the rest...

 

(ETA: SWEET! I'm an AGENT!)

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It seems some people are trying to hold the Forum responsible for the actions of others who pay to advertise on the site. This Forum (like most) does not guarantee or indemnify its' paid advertisers, nor does it rate them. Business is between the individual and the business owner, not the Forum. It is up to the Administrator to determine who advertises here and who doesn't. If you have an issue with the Forum's advertising policy or practices, try PM'ing Makc. Otherwise, you are whistling in the wind.

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The only one to Blame at the moment is Etac/ Go Gun. I suggest anyone who still has an order pending to demand your firearm as is and get a refund. If you do not get a response in a timely manner, I would then contact your lawyer. The company is dishonest and has no Ethics. If I was the owner of this forum I would ban Etac/Go Gun. This kind of business practice will not only bring down there company but also give this forum a bad taste.

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I say we keep this back on topic which is why people should stay away from ETAC with legitimate complaints.

This is the correct place to complain and they will not get deleted so others can see what is happening with the way they conduct business.

Please PM Makc if you would like to see something changed. I doubt they will be a business member here long if enough people are complaining about it.

Makc runs a professional business here and he will not put up with it for long.

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I say we keep this back on topic which is why people should stay away from ETAC with legitimate complaints.

This is the correct place to complain and they will not get deleted so others can see what is happening with the way they conduct business.

Please PM Makc if you would like to see something changed. I doubt they will be a business member here long if enough people are complaining about it.

Makc runs a professional business here and he will not put up with it for long.

Excellent points!

 

There is no call to criticize the mods who are following forum guidelines. Misplaced anger is never productive.

 

 

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Etac has over 1k of my money. I don't have a gun.

 

 

...........and that, sport, is ENTIRELY YOUR OWN FAULT. This "Feedback" section is more than adequate evidence that you simply did not exercise due diligence in vetting E-Tac as a company you'd want to send your gun to for conversion work.

And now, after the fact (after you fucked up), you want to try and blame the Forum for your failure, and attack the Mods ??

 

You own the situation you find yourself in, like it or don't.......... so just STFU.

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I say we keep this back on topic which is why people should stay away from ETAC with legitimate complaints.

This is the correct place to complain and they will not get deleted so others can see what is happening with the way they conduct business.

Please PM Makc if you would like to see something changed. I doubt they will be a business member here long if enough people are complaining about it.

Makc runs a professional business here and he will not put up with it for long.

This is disappointing.

I have a few customers who I locked in at my GlassBolt sale price months ago who were waiting on their guns back then.

They're still waiting & occasionally contact me to see if they're still good on price when they get their guns. They are of course, still locked in.

 

I've now pulled the honey-stick option from my Vertical Charging Handle addition options being as I don't want to disappoint my customers should they order one from me, then they not be available.

Good luck Greg.

 

And please people, don't blame the forum for one advertisers shortcomings.

 

It's like blaming channel 12 for getting sick after eating at a fast food joint that paid to have a commercial air on their channel.

The forum is only an advertising venue. It takes a bit, but Max has given shady vendors the boot before & will again.

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