hobbyshooter 59 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Well, this is the reason we haven't seen a LRBHO option for these guns yet. As mentioned earlier the design has to work within a very tight tolerance in a platform that has been built with VERY loose tolerance. The only thing that bothers me is that with all the shaping, that coating gets completely removed. Save the cost of coating and just oil & bag them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
geepelton 105 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Looking forward to some field testing and feedback. I want to do this but I want to see how it works first. Thanks guys for doing my leg work for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lksyotas 4 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Well I finally made it to the range today with my LRBHO. I took some videos and will post them shortly. It worked about 95% correct. I shot fifty low brass bulk pack Federal rounds mixed between an AGP 10 round and factory 5 round. The only issue I had was the first and or second round of the either mag would hang up while loading. Each ejected properly and once the first two were cycled the rest fed fine. It makes me think the LRBHO is putting to much drag on the top shell and not allowing it to cycle into the breach properly. It actually holds the bolt carrier back against the shell and all it takes is a bump to the carrier handle to finish the forward travel to load properly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I'm uploading installation videos now. I'm going to try and hit the range tomorrow. If I get there I'll take some function testing videos. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
amityn 0 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Well, I'm ready for a field test myself. After a week and a 1/2 of grinding, fitting, grinding, fitting, assembling, dis-assembling, some more grinding, fitting, yada yada yada... my hawks beak looks like a parakeet's beak. Seems to cycle with dummy rounds so we'll see what tomorrow brings. This install has brought me to the edge, given me fits and almost drove me to drink again..so if it don't work tomorrow I think I'll put my name on the wait list and pay to have the master install my one free replacement....wish me luck..... Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagelthief 1 Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 So is this something that will actually HINDER reliability when inserting a mag? Ive heard from people that this issue with the first round catching the LRBHO is pretty common; but have yet to hear anyone who has found a fix for it too. This mod is highly desirable by lots of people, but not at the expense of reliability. I hope to see the bugs get worked out...Im also anxious to hear from Tom at CGW...He has been mysteriously silent as of late and it is disconcerting...I know with his input it would probably function flawlessly. If it proves to be a hindrance on function instead of a improvement, then I will just send mine right back....Heres to really hoping that wont be so... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Ive heard from people that this issue with the first round catching the LRBHO is pretty common; How can this be common if no one has the thing installed??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 He might be referring to the factory unit. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFhw3JKg6ok 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Heath_h49008 442 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagelthief 1 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Ive heard from people that this issue with the first round catching the LRBHO is pretty common; How can this be common if no one has the thing installed??? Iv heard of only two or three people so far who have it installed...for sure two of them complained about the first round getting hung up. 2 out of 3 sounds common to me. At your defense though, it still is really early in the game. Things could change when Tom speaks up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagelthief 1 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Awesome video BTW...Cant wait for part two... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Got mine installed and functioning. Cycles good with dummy loads, they got buggered up so I need to make some more. Pouring rain today, so no live fire testing. A 3-gun competition I was going to was postponed so I had time to play. Did some creative bending & grinding to avoid notching the mags. While fitting, I had the mag realeased installed without the spring. I used a rubber band to keep it engaged. Still have some tweeking though... - Need to take a little more off of the hammer width, a little snug. - The thumb release screw is not installed yet, need to notch the receiver. Not sure if I want it below the receiver or raised up on the side. - I ground an angle & polished both of the surfaces of the LRBHO and bolt where they engage to allow for easier manual disengagement. The bolt had a sharp edge that was digging into the LRBHO. - I turned the face of the phillips spring screw along with its diameter. I removed some of the plate on the inside of the receiver that tha screw was hitting, which prevented it from rising far enough to engage the bolt. Once I take it apart again (got really good at this), I will post a pic of the final shape of my LRBHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Great video bridis wish I had all that info when I started !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBeITNcZVP0 Thanks. Enjoy 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So is this something that will actually HINDER reliability when inserting a mag? Ive heard from people that this issue with the first round catching the LRBHO is pretty common; but have yet to hear anyone who has found a fix for it too. This mod is highly desirable by lots of people, but not at the expense of reliability. I hope to see the bugs get worked out...Im also anxious to hear from Tom at CGW...He has been mysteriously silent as of late and it is disconcerting...I know with his input it would probably function flawlessly. If it proves to be a hindrance on function instead of a improvement, then I will just send mine right back....Heres to really hoping that wont be so... I found my ftf problem was I had ground the hb to short allowing the front of the shell to cock up when it jumped to the top of the mag it consistently caught the top lip of the barrel when feeding, I extended the hb back out to where it covered about 3/8 of plastic past the brass on low brass fedrals, have since fired 150 rounds without any failures Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagelthief 1 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So is this something that will actually HINDER reliability when inserting a mag? Ive heard from people that this issue with the first round catching the LRBHO is pretty common; but have yet to hear anyone who has found a fix for it too. This mod is highly desirable by lots of people, but not at the expense of reliability. I hope to see the bugs get worked out...Im also anxious to hear from Tom at CGW...He has been mysteriously silent as of late and it is disconcerting...I know with his input it would probably function flawlessly. If it proves to be a hindrance on function instead of a improvement, then I will just send mine right back....Heres to really hoping that wont be so... I found my ftf problem was I had ground the hb to short allowing the front of the shell to cock up when it jumped to the top of the mag it consistently caught the top lip of the barrel when feeding, I extended the hb back out to where it covered about 3/8 of plastic past the brass on low brass fedrals, have since fired 150 rounds without any failures Great news. quick question: Did the lrbho always keep it open on empty? Dont be shy on testing it out with more rounds now LOL! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I want to see success stories before I chop my guns insides right now I'm busy fitting mags for my new Mag-Well, I'd like very much to have the LRBHO on my Competition gun. and I'd like it to work in conjuction with the magazine Well modification. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I extended the hb back out to where it covered about 3/8 of plastic past the brass on low brass fedrals, have since fired 150 rounds without any failures Great info here. I like that you describe how far the beak needs to extend past a valid, fixed reference point. How did you extend it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 There are 2 reasons I bent the BHO. One, I am pretty anal about things being as heavily built as I can have them, and bending it allowed me to leave the hb section much thicker. In the work I've done over the years, I've learned a bit about materials and flexing, and know that the thicker it is, the less it will flex, and the more positive it will operate. I had designed my own LRBHO a couple years ago, that worked similar to the old Warfield Armory one, and flexing was a major issue. Two, in order to get the round in the magazine as high as it is, I would've had to grind the HB section paper thin. With the round lower in the mag, the feed angle is changed, and reliability may suffer. I want the BHO to work, but I also don't want any of the guns' other functions to change, or change as little as possible, as the gun is reliable as it is. I had to trim one leg of the mag catch spring also. Haven't fully assembled the gun yet, so don't know about the hammer spring problem. It will be late this coming week before I get back to it, as my wife had knee surgery last Fri., and I been home helping her out. I should be back in the shop Wed., but have a conversion to finish up before getting back the BHO thing. Tom overbuilt the crap out of this thing, and he did it on purpose, so it could fit the widest array of guns that vary widely. But, that means a lot of fitting. It is what it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I extended the hb back out to where it covered about 3/8 of plastic past the brass on low brass fedrals, have since fired 150 rounds without any failures Great info here. I like that you describe how far the beak needs to extend past a valid, fixed reference point. How did you extend it? I cut a female slot in 1/8 plate that fit the hb snugly welded them together then trimmed and heat treated , I've already requested my replacement part from Cadiz , as I am less than sure about the longevity of my patchwork, but it does function great as of right now and to answer the other post yes it locked on the last round every time , never released when loaded mag was inserted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
setlab 11 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So will this LRBHO allow loading a full magazine without releasing the bolt? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PYRO 44 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 The only thing that bothers me is that with all the shaping, that coating gets completely removed. Save the cost of coating and just oil & bag them. I had called Cadiz about this the day Tom posted that he was sending them out for coating, and asked for one uncoated. They asked me, "why would you want one that was not coated? Oh well,,,,,, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frap 0 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Is there any reason why you couldn't put a 90' bend in the spring and put it in the screw hole? (doing away with the screw) The only thing I can see is that you might need to make the screw hole a slot to allow for travel. That and the spring might not take a bend without breaking. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) So will this LRBHO allow loading a full magazine without releasing the bolt? No. But you may able to adjust it to, by grinding it that way. Edited March 27, 2011 by dgyver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 So will this LRBHO allow loading a full magazine without releasing the bolt? I could not get mine to stop closing when full mag is loaded. Is there any reason why you couldn't put a 90' bend in the spring and put it in the screw hole? (doing away with the screw) The only thing I can see is that you might need to make the screw hole a slot to allow for travel. That and the spring might not take a bend without breaking. I come to the concussion that the spring provided is too weak. The spring provided must fight against the fully loaded mag spring,to not close the bolt on a loaded mag. So I made a new spring out of the old bho spring and then BANG. I can now slam a fully loaded 5 round mag in and the bolt will not close but not a drum with this spring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 That sounds like the idea I was going to try. But I was worried that a stronger spring would hold the round down too far and the bolt would not pick it up. Let me know how the live fire goes. I didn't have too much luck today during my live fire testing. I still need to tweak the LRBHO around the Hawk's Beak area. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lksyotas 4 Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Well I hit the range again today and cycled 100 rounds through my gun in ten round increments with an AGP mag. I did not have one entire mag cycle correctly and I was disheartened. At first I was having issues with the first round hanging up still when the mag was inserted and then that problem went away half way through shooting and the darn bolt wouldn't hold open on an empty mag reliably. I'm wondering if I flexed the beak during shooting to influence the hold back. It is super thin now and doesn't take much force to bend it. I like the idea of trying the original BHO spring for added force but not sure if I want the mag spring and the BHO spring fighting each other over the thin beak that balances them. I might copy the geometry of my current one and machine a new one out of 4150 and add a bit more material to the beak area to start over... Edited March 28, 2011 by lksyotas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Mine also had issues picking up the first round. However, I never had issues with the the bolt holding open on the last round. But cycling got increasingly worse as I worked my way through 50 rounds. When I got to round 35 or 40 I was manually cycing every round. When I'd pull the trigger the round would fire, the extractor would remove the spent round and the bolt would reset never picking up the next round. I would then have to manually cycle the gun to fire the next round. Weird. I didn't have time to look into the issue when I got home. But I'll dig into it later this week. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Mine also had issues picking up the first round. However, I never had issues with the the bolt holding open on the last round. But cycling got increasingly worse as I worked my way through 50 rounds. When I got to round 35 or 40 I was manually cycing every round. When I'd pull the trigger the round would fire, the extractor would remove the spent round and the bolt would reset never picking up the next round. I would then have to manually cycle the gun to fire the next round. Weird. I didn't have time to look into the issue when I got home. But I'll dig into it later this week. I suspect that the fouling from 50 rounds made the BHO too stiff. You may need to polish it more where is contacts the reciever at the pin area. Another cause could be your thumb, because your left handed, interfering with the BHO bolt. I make a cautious effort to position my figure low so that I don't bump the BHO bolt which can engage the BHO or even prevent the rounds from coming all the way up in the mag and thus the bolt will miss it like you have described. As for reloading: I find it helpful to support the weight of the gun on my shooting fingure on the BHO bolt, with the stock under my right arm pit, as I load another mag. Once loaded, I can disengage with my shooting fingure. Kind of like a AR-15 MAGPUL B.A.D., but on a Saiga 12. Additionally I find that the BHO bolt, which is by the trigger, moves up and down as the gun cycles. If my shooting fingure is too high, I can accidently engage the BHO or the BHO can stop a shell from coming all the way up in the mag. To prevent this, I position my fingure on the lower part of the trigger. I am yet to live fire. That will be the real test. Edited March 28, 2011 by Crusader Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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