Bridis 319 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I have two of CGW's LRBHO kits on my bench but will leave them sealed in their plastic bags until I see detailed dimensional drawings, photos and directions on how to intstall them. I refuse to use a cutting tool on any part of my Saiga 12's until it is clear what I need to do. You're not gonna get what you're looking for because there are so many different variations of the S-12. What works for me and some other guy may not work for you. So if you're not sure how to proceed on your own you should pack up your gun and LRBHO, and send it to CGW with a check for $180.00. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) I'm wondering if any of my fellow LRBHO installers have been able to get an MD 20 Drum mag to work? My factory 5 round stick mag works flawlessly (that's the only stick mag I own). For some reason shells fed from the drum won't lift the hawks' beak, no matter what I try. I've even removed the hammer spring to insure that there was no additional tension on the LRBHO and the drum still can't lift the Hawk's break. Any ideas? Edited March 31, 2011 by Bridis 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I have two of CGW's LRBHO kits on my bench but will leave them sealed in their plastic bags until I see detailed dimensional drawings, photos and directions on how to intstall them. I refuse to use a cutting tool on any part of my Saiga 12's until it is clear what I need to do. You're not gonna get what you're looking for because there are so many different variations of the S-12. What works for me and some other guy may not work for you. So if you're not sure how to proceed on your own you should pack up your gun and LRBHO, and send it to CGW with a check for $180.00. i got the pics you were asking about , but it,s exatly this scenario that makes apprehensive about posting them ! as far as the md 20 if i only loaded 12 it ran fine ,when i stacked it full it jammed . i tried to do some more tuning on it today , but should have left it alone , glad i got some pics cause i found myself refering to them . i just got home a bit ago ill try to post the pics tonight . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Sorry, only stick mags here. I believe I have it where it needs to be. It works with or without a magwell. Manual cycling only. Live fire this Sunday. Unless I test Sat in my backyard. I did end up notching the mags. There was a little play with the mags when installed and when pressed up it would close the bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 as far as the md 20 if i only loaded 12 it ran fine ,when i stacked it full it jammed That's similar to what I found with tightening the drum spring. It seemed to pin the round against the LRBHO and nothing moved. It looks to me like the drum feeds from a slightly different angle which prevents the round from rising high enough with the slightest amount of pressure being applied by the LRBHO. Right now it looks like the hawk's beak need to rise a lot higher if it's gonna work with the drums. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I don't want to go negative on the thing, and I appreciate how ambitious people are to try and make something like this, but I'm not sure about it. If you look at the Russian one, it has a very solid looking part that stops the bolt carrier: The lever that actuates is separate from the thing that stops the bolt, and the other end of it can be pushed up to release the bolt. That's a more robust design, I think. It doesn't require any grinding of the bolt, and it replaces the ejector block instead of having to cut into it. I know that it is follower actuated instead of shell actuated, so it would need some kind of follower modification, but I would rather modify a follower than the bolt. Not trying to rain on the parade, just saying... Original post from Russian guy DrBornmental Is the Russian one available as a drop-in part, or if not, is anyone working on an American copy? The Cadiz or CSS one seems beyond my skill and means. I'm guessing that the Russian one will be available as a retrofit part because Oleg mentioned last year that he was going to have them for sale. (rusmilitary.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I still need to test fire mine but as of now all stick mags can be slamed into my gun and the bolt will stay open and hand feed perfectly. As for the md20 it will close the bolt on inserting it into the gun and it feed's if I force it just a tad. This is with no lube. I ended up bending the HB so I did not have to mod the mag's,and also have the moded factory bho spring in too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Well when SHTF, and you get bitten to death by zombies because your having to go through 9 trillion steps to load a new mag; Ill be locked and loaded in no time and the lead will be flowing! Plus; yea it gets easier to load a full mag on a closed bolt with practice, but still, there are those times when it gets stuck and just wont click until you really work that bitch...Not good in a life or death situation... Plus; how many times have you been blasting away, then you drop the hammer on an empty chamber? (which could yet again equal DEATH in a firefight). With the bolt open you can feel a difference in trigger tension, and you know your empty. To me thats plenty of reason to do it...Plus it feels good to tinker and make something difficult work. I don't know man.. it looks like everybody is having reliability issues at this point. I love the idea of a LRBHO for the Saiga-12, but until it can be achieved fairly easy without risking damage to my weapon and function 100% reliably after installed, I'm all set. So when the zombie apocalypse arrives I guess I'll be taking my chances 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 THIS LRBHO IS JUST WHAT WORKED IN MY SAIGA , DUE TO THE VARIANCES IN THE SAIGA PLATFORM, THESE SHOULD ONLY BE REFERANCED AS A IDEA !!! IN NO WAY SHOULD THESE BE REFERED TO AS A STANDARD ONE SIZE FITS ALL DIMENTIONAL DRAWING !!!! ALSO DUE TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN CAMERA AND PART AND PART TO PAPER , CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THE IMAGES APPEAR AT A SKEW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagelthief 1 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 What dimensions are the grid paper (how big is each box?) Thanks for the pics. If we could get everyone who has done an install to post some of those up, that would be tits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crusader 64 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) as far as the md 20 if i only loaded 12 it ran fine ,when i stacked it full it jammed That's similar to what I found with tightening the drum spring. It seemed to pin the round against the LRBHO and nothing moved. It looks to me like the drum feeds from a slightly different angle which prevents the round from rising high enough with the slightest amount of pressure being applied by the LRBHO. Right now it looks like the hawk's beak need to rise a lot higher if it's gonna work with the drums. I think that the 8rd Surfire or 8rd AGP mags would work best for this LRBHO. They both have the same length spring as the 10 round mags. Edited March 31, 2011 by Crusader Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dgyver 13 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I have been testing with 10 & 12 round SGM mags. After all goes well this weekend with the live fire testing, I will post pics & dimensions of my efforts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 In my opinion, this LRBHO isn't worth the time or the money. Or the headaches I'm sure folks are having right now. $75.00 for a piece of steel that has to be chopped up, bent and extensively modified before it will work correctly? No thanks. Not that it wouldn't be nice, I just don't see any major benefit. Good luck same feeling here. seeme like even though some modification of the part may be necessary due to variances, it should be WAAAAY closer to being drop in. Looks like it was rushed to market before testing in a few different models. I understand the molds used to stamp those are costly, however, that doesn't excuse reworking them into a more usuable design that doesn't require $150 or weeks of DIY work to work right. If this was a UTG product, folks would be way less forgiving. Time to go back to the drawing board, i think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 What dimensions are the grid paper (how big is each box?) Thanks for the pics. If we could get everyone who has done an install to post some of those up, that would be tits. They are 1/4 inch , I'd strongly recommend leaving the hb as long and thick as possible taking it down in small increments as this one has started bending . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
got_drift 1 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 dang yall im almost done with mine i think... had to bend the HB up quite a bit. i think the idea here is to get it to the point were we dont need to notch our mags. im tryin to get the HB to clear it and for the round to not be pushed down into the mag by the LRBHO. thats what im tryin to do with mine im post pics soon as i get it workin a lil better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyE 81 Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 THIS LRBHO IS JUST WHAT WORKED IN MY SAIGA , DUE TO THE VARIANCES IN THE SAIGA PLATFORM, THESE SHOULD ONLY BE REFERANCED AS A IDEA !!! IN NO WAY SHOULD THESE BE REFERED TO AS A STANDARD ONE SIZE FITS ALL DIMENTIONAL DRAWING !!!! ALSO DUE TO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN CAMERA AND PART AND PART TO PAPER , CERTAIN PORTIONS OF THE IMAGES APPEAR AT A SKEW. +1 to you and Bridis. I'm very anal, having machined and assembled many SB Chevy's up through cylinder kits and bearings for 8V92 Detroit Diesels...measurements in 0.001" and even 0.0001". Cams with finished in microns...way to much to ask for with the Saiga, granted. Maybe I've gone numb from the neck up, but, for lack of a better way of looking at it, I'd get a great benefit from images that look like X-rays of the Saiga with the LRBHO installed, shown in various configurations (bolt locked open, bolt closed, empty mag in, full mag in, etc). It's the orientation or interrelationship of the parts that I am challenged to visualize. Having a strong idea of the end result would really do a lot to get me there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Here are some pics of mine. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 Wow, haven't been here in several days, and you guys are working it hard. I just went back to work today, upper respiratory infection. Won't get back to the LRBHO until next week. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
got_drift 1 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 ok so here it is in working order, i have not live fired yet but manual cycling works great. notice the HB is very short and curved down, i ended up having to bend the whole lever up basicly to get the bottom of the HB to clear the top of the ejector block, that way the mag wont activate the LRBHO and then the HB puts minimum pressure on the rounds as they come up. also the HB barly touches the rim of the round as u can see in the pics. so thats whats workin for me so far, even tho mine looks alot different then yalls. lemme know comments or questions! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I test fired mine today and mine is working with both stick mag's and my first run and second run md20 drum. During testing I changed back to the spring that came with the lrbho so my bolt close's when stick mags and drums are inserted into my S-12. I like it closing when mag is inserted in,it is just bad ass to me this way. At first I was having fte with Rem bulk 7 1/2, then I went with Rem 00 buck and 1oz slugs and it ranreal good wth only a few fte and then it started raining and I ran a few more mags and drums and they ran perfect so I pack up and left. I'am going back tomorrow or sunday and I will get video. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 It seems to me like everyone is bending the Hawk's beak... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) Yes I bent mine like Gunfixer said. Here's mine. Edited April 2, 2011 by havok 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted April 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) havok, It looks like you hardly took any material off of the bottom of the LRBHO toward the rear. It also looks like you didn't remove any material from the half circle area that sits over the trigger axis pin. Removing that material allows the rear of the LRBHO to tilt downward further and the Hawk's Beak to rise higher, without bending. You'd also have to remove some material from the top of the arm that connects the Hawk's Beak to the body of the LRBHO so it doesn't hit the underside of the ejector plate. EDIT: It doesnt look like you had to notch your mag either. Did you? Edited April 2, 2011 by Bridis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) Mine looks very similar to this one. Bending is the way to go. There is actually alot of room for it to go up under the ejector block, its recessed even farther once you get past the first pin. Mine worked as Cadiz intended with this configuration. Having said that....... Im really not happy with this design, it only goes halfway to having an LRBHO that works the way it should. This design always puts pressure on the top round in the mag and then has to push the round downwards while the bolt goes forward. Ive got some idea's that will make it work alot better but its going to take some big changes. If I could find a front half of a bolt I would throw this one out and make my own from scratch. Its a great attempt but its not there yet and I see it always being a finicky design that will take "tweaking" to get to work with this mag or another. I think were due for a second patent. Anyone know where I can buy a bolt? No really, Im serious. Edit: To answer Bridis, mags do not need to be modded. Edited April 2, 2011 by Shadoh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) havok, It looks like you hardly took any material off of the bottom of the LRBHO toward the rear. It also looks like you didn't remove any material from the half circle area that sits over the trigger axis pin. Removing that material allows the rear of the LRBHO to tilt downward further and the Hawk's Beak to rise higher, without bending. You'd also have to remove some material from the top of the arm that connects the Hawk's Beak to the body of the LRBHO so it doesn't hit the underside of the ejector plate. EDIT: It doesnt look like you had to notch your mag either. Did you? When I started modding the mag I said to myself this is wrong, so I used vise grips and clamped it to the bend of the lrbho and bent the whole HB side of the lrbho up a good bit. Mine does not hit the ejector plate. I milled my plate back to where it stepped back up to the top of the plate. I removed from the bottom front of the lrbho. You can see in the pic the black is still on the bottom half way. I did take about 1/16" off of the back top so my HB moves down more when the carrier was sliding across the back top of the lrbho. Mine move's freely inside of my gun up and down, I had to take no more metal off of anywhere else. I'am 100 percent sure the spring that comes with the lrbho is too weak. After I took them pic's last nite I noticed the spring is too weak to fully push the lrbho all the way up after 75 or so rounds. The spring need's to fight the mag and drum spring to not close when inserted. I have it working both way's with stick mag's just by changing the spring out. My lrbho move's easy and freely not getting hung up on anything and also has some side to side play. I need to find stronger spring's to test with drum's. Edited April 2, 2011 by havok Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Is the auto closing of the bolt always going to be a problem? I liked the idea of having one less step during a mag swap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
got_drift 1 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 I'm thinking all you have to do to get the bolt to close when you slap a mag in wound just be to not bend it up as high so it DOSENT clear the mag when inserted so the mag bump it up eonough to disengauge the LRBHO. I could definitely see your point hobbyshooter if maybe you was runnin a mag well so just as your slappin that mag into place the bolt would self close, great for competition Quote Link to post Share on other sites
got_drift 1 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 HAVOK, I wouldn't think you would want to much tension on the sping for the only reason so it doesn't put to much pressure down on the rounds??? Didn't you run into an issue with that? Mine was pushin the ronuds to were they weren't getting picked up by the bolt, that what caused me to bend mine up I had no more material to remove I think. What's your thoughts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
got_drift 1 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 and don't you guys think this is awesome! It's cool being some of the firt peeps to modify and try a new product, it's been a fist for me I thought I was getting in way over my head not being a gunsmith, I mean lets face I I fix cars! Hahaha but I think that actuallly helped me diagnose each issue I was running into and you guys helped a ton too especially birdis (i think I spelt that right) I watched his vids on CSS and got the idea of what was goin on. SO DEFINITELY A BIG UPPS TO ALL OF YOU HERE IN SAIGA LAND! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
havok 21 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Is the auto closing of the bolt always going to be a problem? I liked the idea of having one less step during a mag swap. I do not see it as a problem at all. I spent some time trying to get it to not close when mag was inserted. And after I did it a few time's with the drum I switch to the other spring to make it close. I realy like it this way. I did not run into having to much spring tension at all with the factory bho or lrbho spring. Yes I would guess you could have too much tension but these two spring don't have it in them to do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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