Import Paperwork Already Being Denied!?!?

[Shadoh 16]

Sounds like were one step closer to a US made S12 (but better I hope) shotgun.

[grendelz 61]

Sounds like were one step closer to a US made S12 (but better I hope) shotgun.

i'm hoping some one will step and manufacture an american made saiga style 12 gauge. because the prices have gone butt fucking ridiculous!! please lube your ass before clicking on the following link

 

http://www.gunsamerica.com/953250527/Guns/Shotguns/Saiga-Shotguns/Shotguns/Saiga_12_Gauge_New_in_Box_19_Barrel_IN_STOCK_Ready_to_Ship.htm

[Gopher 7]

Atlantic Firearms posted the following in another thread in this forum on March 20th... ".... They just tried to jump the price on the Vepr rifles by $70 per unit & claimed it was because of the increased cost of fuel."

 

 

i call BS.. russia has there own oil..

 

Via wiki (take what you want from it)

 

"Russia is the largest oil producer in the world, producing an average of 9.93 million barrels of oil per day in 2009 for a total of 494.2 million tons."

 

so again i call BS on higher fuel prices being the cause.

 

just my 2 cents

[yooper14.5 84]

we need somone to type a formal letter for everyone to send to their respective senators and reps. hell, my local representative responds to my emails. dont know if its actually him, but hey. also, is there a contact line for fox news?

[EnzNow 14]

we need somone to type a formal letter for everyone to send to their respective senators and reps. hell, my local representative responds to my emails. dont know if its actually him, but hey. also, is there a contact line for fox news?

 

We all need to print this letter and mail to every lawmaker we can think of, the BATFE, and I hate to say it....FOX NEWS!!!

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/63054-batfe-decision-will-saiga-12s-be-legal-to-import/page__view__findpost__p__603830

 

-EnzNow

Sean Healy Letter to ATF re Sporting Purposes and shotguns.pdf

Edited April 1, 2011 by EnzNow

[Mephis 82]

I saw this thread, and looked at the date.

 

Then I scratched my head.

[Guns Are Great 140]

I didn't see anything posted on this but has anyone heard of imports being denied already? I have heard this from two different importer. One is very credible to me and I have no reason to not believe the other. Anybody heard any of this? Supposedly the only guns coming in are because the paperwork was approved before the study and that everyone that had submitted after the study has been denied on the 12. If this is true it appears we are already screwed... I have a couple emails out to see if others have had the same happen to them. The Russian's also started a bidding war from what I hear. That didn't sound good to me and was somewhat confirmed to me today when I was quoted a dealer price on some. I can't repeat the dealer price from the first time importer but it is VERY high. Has anybody been hearing any of this and if it's being discussed I couldn't find it. This is very unsettling. Eric Holder might be removed soon but I am not sure it will change anything. Not sure if I should buy a boat load at the new high ass dealer price or what. It would suck if they dried up and I didnt and it would suck if I stick myself with a few hundred guns that I'll lose well over a hundred on each. What really sucks the worst though is that we even have to worry about such thing here in America! What a crying ass shame!

Edited April 4, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[physicsnerd 139]

Mike,

 

The only denial that I have heard about to date is for the M1 Garands/M1 Carbines, but I would not be surprised if this went further and I have not tried to confirm it. When talking to some of our local ATF agents, whom are reliable sources for me anyways, they have only advised that the S12's will be worth a lot more in the future. They would not elaborate any further, so I don't know how to take it. Obviously not trying to stir the pot on this again, but I'm starting to experience a level of concern as well.

 

Maybe they were referring to QE2 and the devaluation of our dollar. As much as that sucks, I would rather have that than an import ban.

[Machinist 150]

Mike,

 

The NRA April addition has the story about the shotgun issues. I'll let you guys read and form you own opinions. But this is a very real issue. I wrote my congressman in Ohio and revcd a reply from him. I suggest the powers that be in this forum along with all the looker/learners such as me take action. Please read the NRA position on the issue!!!!

 

 

Mike,

 

The only denial that I have heard about to date is for the M1 Garands/M1 Carbines, but I would not be surprised is this went further and I have not tried to confirm it. When talking to some of our local ATF agents, whom are reliable sources for me anyways, they have only advised that the S12's will be worth a lot more in the future. They would not elaborate any further, so I don't know how to take it. Obviously not trying to stir the pot on this again, but I'm starting to experience a level of concern as well.

Can you being on a more personal level with ATF officials give your assessment of the general feels most are having on gun rights? On the concern yes... At first I wasn't too worried. Then I see the full page pic of our drum in the study and it brought a little more but still not overly. But I have been hearing more and more and it just isn't looking good at all. I think this issue needs brought to national attention and fast. The NRA need to stand up and speak louder as well. If we could get the media to look into the denied paperwork as an unofficial official ban that could be something. America as a whole doesn't like gun bans and if we let this possible go by quietly it might not even be known that it needs overturned! Who am I kidding, how can this not be political as bad as everyone is sick of hearing political stuff... We need to act. Write And send to everyone. Tell all the news anchors we want to see a story on this... Tell the NRA and newly elected official we can't hear them...

[20nickels 21]

If this is true does such a denial also affect certain Benellis, etc?

 

This was my 1st question as well.

[Heath_h49008 442]

I have spoken on the phone with 2 players, one a MAJOR parts manufacturer, and one at Legion in Florida. Both mentioned the fact that all new S12 AND S20 Form 6(s) were spiked. The .410 and rifles do not seem to be effected. If true, I feel sorry for Kvar and the money they stand to lose after becoming the importer/distributor of a weapon that can't get in. Maybe they have a way around it, or some protected stash of approved Form 6s that will keep them coming in. If anyone has friends at Kvar, it would be nice to hear it from them.

 

US production has been looked at, but nobody seems to know much for certain. I have no doubt we could put the S12 production line on a ship and send it to the US... but at what cost? Who pays for the investment? Will the BATF then simply name-ban the weapon as they did with the SPAS15, and Stryker12? It could be a huge risk.

[Caspian 32]

Mike, sounds like a good time to make a sale on Drums just to stick it to them and show them we are strong. I would be in for at least 5 to show my support.

[snooter 6]

supposably benelli is no longer taking orders for the M4..i dunno 4 sure (there is a thread on the benelli forum about this)..we find out after the study..until then if you want a saiga buy one..if you do not the dont...personally i do not give a rats ass..you guys should have bought the stuff you wanted 7,8 years ago

[Boomstick12 11]

But wait, weren't we told by, supposedly, heavy hitting insiders that there is nothing to worry about? In that long ATF thread? Right....certain people were mocked because they were trying to warn people.

 

The bottom line is even most gun owners don't "get it". A lot of our "representatives" are actively working against our 2nd amendment freedoms. They'll do it little by little, so you won't have a "moment" in which you decide enough is enough and you'll shoot whoever comes for your guns.

 

It'll be slowly but surely. A little here, a little there, just like they have been doing.

 

But hey, tell me I'm wrong, whatever you need to do to make yourselves feel better.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Where the fuck is KVar's hero.... harry reid.... when we need him, lol? I know we are getting fucked, but I feel great about the potential for KVar to get fucked after their strong support of reid. Sorry guys, just trying to find the light in the dark and I already have a couple Saiga 12s.

 

Maybe KVar should pull their favor card from harry.

Edited April 2, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[Steppe Sweeper 22]

;

have spoken on the phone with 2 players, one a MAJOR parts manufacturer, and one at Legion in Florida. Both mentioned the fact that all new S12 AND S20 Form 6(s) were spiked.

Son of a fucking bitch. I was thinking if worst came to worst for the S12, I could still get and live with a 20. Looks like anything with a bore over .50 is fucked, (Benellis too? What about M2s w/PGS, not just M4s?)

 

Fuck Harry Reid, where is Henry Bowman. I guess this one will do right there, cocksuckers

Edited April 2, 2011 by tritium
reflects poorly on Saiga community; members have voiced objection to comments made

[Ned Beatty 39]

Yeah, all those long threads are gone, and so are a bunch of members who spoke their opinions, and got banned for it.

 

Especially those who disagreed with the industry insiders who knew nothing was going to happen.

 

One of the guys was named Bob, and he said he spoke to the ATF agents, and that we had nothing to worry about.

 

Sure wish I could pull up the quotes, but, they are in limbo, along with the banned members.

[Sasha 10]

Sounds like were one step closer to a US made S12 (but better I hope) shotgun.

 

 

Have you ever heard of a quality AK made in United States?

[Sasha 10]

we need somone to type a formal letter for everyone to send to their respective senators and reps. hell, my local representative responds to my emails. dont know if its actually him, but hey. also, is there a contact line for fox news?

 

 

That is like 10 year old boy sending letter to his mother asking to deal cocaine. They will continue course unless they are stopped by force.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Sasha

[Sasha 10]

But wait, weren't we told by, supposedly, heavy hitting insiders that there is nothing to worry about? In that long ATF thread? Right....certain people were mocked because they were trying to warn people.

 

The bottom line is even most gun owners don't "get it". A lot of our "representatives" are actively working against our 2nd amendment freedoms. They'll do it little by little, so you won't have a "moment" in which you decide enough is enough and you'll shoot whoever comes for your guns.

 

It'll be slowly but surely. A little here, a little there, just like they have been doing.

 

But hey, tell me I'm wrong, whatever you need to do to make yourselves feel better.

 

 

I try to help people in very same thread, but my advice falls on deaf ears. Please read my posts. I fear all will be lost.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Sasha

[elvis christ 451]

Damn it, my buddy told me there were saiga 12's at the gun show this weekend for around $500, I should have gotten out of bed. Alcohol ruins my life yet again. Oh well, I can always sbs the one I have.

[sickness 89]

Yeah, all those long threads are gone, and so are a bunch of members who spoke their opinions, and got banned for it.

 

Especially those who disagreed with the industry insiders who knew nothing was going to happen.

 

One of the guys was named Bob, and he said he spoke to the ATF agents, and that we had nothing to worry about.

 

Sure wish I could pull up the quotes, but, they are in limbo, along with the banned members.

 

Not sure if all of it can be pulled up, but there are some threads that show up in the search. Thats why I joined the forum, recently.. wanted to find out how this ATF study thing affects my S12.

Not surprised that some threads went haywire and got deleted. Forums may be publicly accessible.. but they are still private property. Like your local McDonald's.. but if you walk into McDonalds and start handing out buy-one-get-one coupons to Burger King, you will be forcibly removed, if needed. Same thing here. Forums depend on their vendors. If the vendor's profit margins are affected.. watch out.

 

We'll see what happens.. I do wish I had picked up a second S12 at $400 when I had a chance though. I've left it unconverted this whole time.. waiting until I had the bread for a professional top-notch conversion with all the bells and whistles... maybe I should jump at getting Tromix or someone to fancy up the gun while I can. If S12 imports go away, I fear the niche market we have going is going to implode. Might not be able to get that kind of work done any more.. that would really suck.. both for us and the vendors. Hell, I've never even bought mags for mine. I guess I should do at least a Tapco conversion for 922r so I can stock up on mags..

 

It would really suck 1000x harder than it already does if I were to get stuck with an S12, with no accessories and had to buy mags on gunbroker at $100 a pop. I'd probably just sell the gun.

 

Christ now I'm getting depressed.. I'd probably make a mint on the S12 though.

[Ned Beatty 39]

being 922 compliant doesn't have anything to do with USA made mags, if anything, just putting in a mag, adds three parts, drums, don't ad, but they don't subtract either.

 

And, you can be 922 compliant without moving parts, if you have a us mag, us gas puck, pistol grip, and stock, you have enough parts, whether its you move parts or not.

 

And ya, forums can be private, but, if you are removing posts, only to boost the vendors profits, at the cost of stifling the truth, what good is the forum in the first place??

 

Besides, what speculation could be so harmful to the vendors? That the S12 may not be imported? If they go the way of the dodo, the vendors are done anyway.

[Ned Beatty 39]

And, I give a nod towards Mike for being the first vendor I recall to step up and address the possibility of things actually getting bad, he had the foresight to make the drum happen, and it seems like at least he is pondiering the what ifs comes the day he can't sell them anymore.

 

Also, the suggestion was made that he have a sale, to move as many items as possible, sure as heck sounds like sound advice, given the fact there may be no chance to sell them at all, for any profit, if the bad times occur.

 

Make hay when the sun shines, you can't do it in the rain.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Ned Beatty

[GunStuff4U.com 4]

...snip

 

Too bad there isn't an emoticon for a Ryder truck parked in front of ATF headquarters. ...snip

 

Are you kidding me? I am an Okie and find your remark highly distasteful and it reflects poorly on the Saiga community. I think you owe a bunch of people a retraction and apology.

[Bagelthief 1]

And, I give a nod towards Mike for being the first vendor I recall to step up and address the possibility of things actually getting bad, he had the foresight to make the drum happen, and it seems like at least he is pondiering the what ifs comes the day he can't sell them anymore.

 

Also, the suggestion was made that he have a sale, to move as many items as possible, sure as heck sounds like sound advice, given the fact there may be no chance to sell them at all, for any profit, if the bad times occur.

 

Make hay when the sun shines, you can't do it in the rain.

 

I dont understand why he wouldnt be able to sell drums anymore? There would still be thousands of owners out there who will always want to buy more drums/mags for their guns. There wont be any NEW owners out there...but none the less, there is still money to be made...Just not as much...

[saltydecimator 482]

 

 

 

from open secrets.org.....

 

 

 

 

The Money

If lawmakers are guilty of tiptoeing around gun control issues, it is because the NRA and other gun rights groups wield an enormous amount of influence in Washington. The source of that influence is money. Gun rights groups have given <a href="http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.php?Ind=Q13">more than $17 million in individual, PAC and soft money contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats. The leading contributor among gun control advocates is the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, formerly known as Handgun Control, which has given $1.5 million over the past 15 years.

 

If gun rights groups have a substantial advantage in campaign contributions, they dominate gun control advocates in the area of lobbying. The NRA alone spent nearly $11 million lobbying elected and government officials from 1997 to 2003. But it wasn't the gun rights lobby's biggest spender. That was Gun Owners of America, which spent more than $18 million on lobbing over the same period. By contrast, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence spent under $2 million on lobbying from 1997 to 2003, and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence spent $580,000.

 

The National Rifle Association has an additional advantage over all other groups in the debate. As a membership organization, the NRA can spend unlimited funds on communications to its 4 million members that identify pro-gun candidates. Those members also contribute millions of dollars in limited donations to the NRA's political action committee, which runs ads aimed at the general public that expressly advocate the election or defeat of a federal candidate. Since 1989, the NRA has spent more than $22 million on communications costs and independent expenditures, with more than $18 million spent in support of Republican candidates.

 

 

 

 

 

my think is, brady spends a 1/4 or something as much as the nra does, and look what they accomplish. it really is nolonger land of the free and home of the brave....when all else fails, vote from the roof tops!!!

 

 

 

[sickness 89]

 

I dont understand why he wouldnt be able to sell drums anymore? There would still be thousands of owners out there who will always want to buy more drums/mags for their guns. There wont be any NEW owners out there...but none the less, there is still money to be made...Just not as much...

 

Well, its not so much a matter of not being able to.. its a matter of economics. Once you get 3, 4 .. 5? drums you're not going to buy any more. It becomes a matter of diminishing returns. Once every S12 owner has a drum, he'll sell less. Sure, there will be folks who want a new drum now and again for whatever reason.. but the stock he has on hand takes longer and longer to sell. So it takes longer and longer to recoup the initial investment, which means he has to charge more per unit in order to make a long term profit which is worthwhile. He can make smaller runs that will sell out more quickly, but now he doesn't get the benefit of scaling up - so unit cost goes up to the end user.. if it goes up too much, we don't pay.. sooner or later the whole thing just falls apart.

 

New products would be endangered too, because there is no potential for market growth. Someone could have an idea for a new whiz-bang Saiga accessory, but with no potential for new users and new sales beyond the initial demand, there is less incentive to buy required tools or whatever... all that sort of stuff eats into the end profit dramatically when there is no growth potential. And there is a huge risk that you'll overestimate the percentage of S12 owners who want your widget.. with no new users.. they'll never sell.

 

If you're not growing .. you're dying. There ain't no third choice.

[Bagelthief 1]

I understand that it is an issue of diminishing returns. Thats why I said "there is still money to be made...Just not as much..."

 

 

In your first post you said "given the fact there may be no chance to sell them at all, for any profit."

 

 

Well now we both agree that: yes, he will be able to sell drums still (just like others will be able to sell their Saiga stuff)...Just not as many as before; and maybe one day he (they) wont be able to sell enough to justify production of any more of said product(s)...

[sickness 89]

being 922 compliant doesn't have anything to do with USA made mags, if anything, just putting in a mag, adds three parts, drums, don't ad, but they don't subtract either.

 

And, you can be 922 compliant without moving parts, if you have a us mag, us gas puck, pistol grip, and stock, you have enough parts, whether its you move parts or not.

 

And ya, forums can be private, but, if you are removing posts, only to boost the vendors profits, at the cost of stifling the truth, what good is the forum in the first place??

 

Besides, what speculation could be so harmful to the vendors? That the S12 may not be imported? If they go the way of the dodo, the vendors are done anyway.

 

I'm not really sure what you mean. I have a stock Saiga. Using a US made mag (3 parts) in the gun is a no-no. I have to change some other parts.. but if I do that, I'm

not dependant on American mags and can't use my factory mag. To use both types of mags I have to replace a bunch of stuff on the gun to make the parts counts all work out.

 

I'll have to re-read the 922r stuff, but I think thats how it works..

 

Anyhow.. the point is. I have a stock S12 and two factory 5 rounders.. I'm thinking it might be smart to get a few drums and 10rd stick mags before it all goes to hell.