Import Paperwork Already Being Denied!?!?

[Guns Are Great 140]

 

I can't keep you from doing it but you already have a pretty good screen name.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[Guns Are Great 140]

 

Ok, but that link is from 2009...

Edited April 4, 2011 by Guns Are Great

[yooper14.5 84]

I dont understand why he wouldnt be able to sell drums anymore? There would still be thousands of owners out there who will always want to buy more drums/mags for their guns. There wont be any NEW owners out there...but none the less, there is still money to be made...Just not as much...

 

Well, its not so much a matter of not being able to.. its a matter of economics. Once you get 3, 4 .. 5? drums you're not going to buy any more. It becomes a matter of diminishing returns. Once every S12 owner has a drum, he'll sell less. Sure, there will be folks who want a new drum now and again for whatever reason.. but the stock he has on hand takes longer and longer to sell. So it takes longer and longer to recoup the initial investment, which means he has to charge more per unit in order to make a long term profit which is worthwhile. He can make smaller runs that will sell out more quickly, but now he doesn't get the benefit of scaling up - so unit cost goes up to the end user.. if it goes up too much, we don't pay.. sooner or later the whole thing just falls apart.

 

New products would be endangered too, because there is no potential for market growth. Someone could have an idea for a new whiz-bang Saiga accessory, but with no potential for new users and new sales beyond the initial demand, there is less incentive to buy required tools or whatever... all that sort of stuff eats into the end profit dramatically when there is no growth potential. And there is a huge risk that you'll overestimate the percentage of S12 owners who want your widget.. with no new users.. they'll never sell.

 

If you're not growing .. you're dying. There ain't no third choice.

 

i believe this (in red) is partially incorrect. there would be the ability to market new products; there would still be millions of saiga owners in the U.S ready to jump on somthing new, so you could still make a good amount. you would just run out of customers in 5-7 years i guess. but on the estimate i have no clue, it could be longer.

[Bagelthief 1]

I really really REALLY doubt there are millions of Saiga owners...Theres probably less then one million S12's in the states period...and iv'e seen many people who have two, three or even four of them all to themselfs...

Edited April 4, 2011 by Bagelthief

[chaseface 41]

I really really REALLY doubt there are millions of Saiga owners...Theres probably less then one million guns in the states period...and many people own more then one, two, or even three...

 

 

Seriously you think there are less than 1 million guns in the US???? You are craaaaaazy. There are over 4 million members in the NRA alone and there are millions of gun owners who are not members of the NRA. Not to mention the over 2 million in the military, but to be fair there are plenty of people who are both in the military and the NRA but yeah anyway the FBI estimeates that there are over 200 million (some sources say as much as 270 million) privately owned guns in the United States, but that is total number of guns not owners. It is estimated that about 1 in every 4 people in the US own a firearm so since there are about 312 million people in the US that puts guns owners at about 78 million gun owners in the US, so the average gun owner has about 3 or 4 guns.

 

EDIT: But i'd have to agree that there probably are not millions of Saiga owners in the US tho I dont have any stats to back that up

Edited April 4, 2011 by chaseface

[nattyiceking 33]

?

 

Dude what the fuck's the matter with you?

[chaseface 41]

?

 

Dude what the fuck's the matter with you?

 

:lolol: hahaha

[Bagelthief 1]

I really really REALLY doubt there are millions of Saiga owners...Theres probably less then one million guns in the states period...and many people own more then one, two, or even three...

 

 

Seriously you think there are less than 1 million guns in the US???? You are craaaaaazy. There are over 4 million members in the NRA alone and there are millions of gun owners who are not members of the NRA. Not to mention the over 2 million in the military, but to be fair there are plenty of people who are both in the military and the NRA but yeah anyway the FBI estimeates that there are over 200 million (some sources say as much as 270 million) privately owned guns in the United States, but that is total number of guns not owners. It is estimated that about 1 in every 4 people in the US own a firearm so since there are about 312 million people in the US that puts guns owners at about 78 million gun owners in the US, so the average gun owner has about 3 or 4 guns.

 

EDIT: But i'd have to agree that there probably are not millions of Saiga owners in the US tho I dont have any stats to back that up

 

My entire post was talking about saiga's. Im not that naive to think there are less then a million guns of all types in USA. We are the biggest gun loving country the world has ever known...But less then a million Saiga's in the USA? Id bet money on that...

[sickness 89]

i believe this (in red) is partially incorrect. there would be the ability to market new products; there would still be millions of saiga owners in the U.S ready to jump on somthing new, so you could still make a good amount. you would just run out of customers in 5-7 years i guess. but on the estimate i have no clue, it could be longer.

 

Millions of Saiga owners? Really?

 

You think Saiga sales rank up there with Ipod sales? How do you square that with Izhmash's financial woes?

 

The Saiga market is a small, niche market.. and is really very fragile.

[kingjamez 8]

All hope is lost. Mike should start selling his drums for $50.00 so he can get while the getting is good :-)

 

I'm in for 10.

[yooper14.5 84]

sorry, i was making a guess and really didnt put a whole lot of thought into it, i just typed it. but you get my point. any new product would have a limited, profitable lifespan.

Edited April 4, 2011 by yooper14.5

[menace667 194]

The 922® compliance is the gun has to have 10 or less parts to use HI-CAP(high capacity) magazines (debated between 5-10, but 5 has become the accepted norm from what I read. Your factory magazine is 5 rounds so you can use it regardless of your parts count. If you cross over to HI-CAP magazines from any country your parts count must be 10 or less to be "americanized".

 

The Saiga S12 has 14 parts that can be changed. American HI-CAP are 3 parts so you would need to change 1 more part to be 922® compliant.

 

Hope this helps some.

[kingjamez 8]

Woops, sorry for the error.

 

 

-Jim

Edited April 5, 2011 by kingjamez

[raleighsaiga 81]

Yeah, this is all completely wrong. The gun has to have 10 or MORE parts to be 922r compliant.

 

 

-Jim

 

Dude. It's pretty bad when you are being corrected for correcting incorrectly. It is indeed 10 or FEWER foreign-made parts. That is why you only need to swap out 4 parts on a completely Russian manufactured gun with US-made parts to be compliant. Otherwise, you'd have to swap out 10 parts.

 

Got it? If not, take it to the 922r forum where you'll believe the answers.

[gregomega 929]

Does anyone know when this "ATF ruling" is supposed to be decided?

[physicsnerd 139]

Does anyone know when this "ATF ruling" is supposed to be decided?

 

I believe any rulings will come out May 1. But its the government so who knows.

[gregomega 929]

Does anyone know when this "ATF ruling" is supposed to be decided?

 

I believe any rulings will come out May 1. But its the government so who knows.

Thanks.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I saw the word 'government' ! Pretty soon someone will be calling for this thread to be moved to the political section again.

[grendelz 61]

I saw the word 'government' ! Pretty soon someone will be calling for this thread to be moved to the political section again.

 

funny, Rusty Shackleford.

[Mr. Scratch 91]

I believe any rulings will come out May 1. But its the government so who knows.

 

 

If I read it correctly, the opportunity to submit opinions ends on May 1st. The ruling will likely be done after that date.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I saw the word 'government' ! Pretty soon someone will be calling for this thread to be moved to the political section again.

funny, Rusty Shackleford.

Now that is funny, lol. How did you know it was me? Lol

[DogMan 2,343]

I believe any rulings will come out May 1. But its the government so who knows.

 

 

If I read it correctly, the opportunity to submit opinions ends on May 1st. The ruling will likely be done after that date.

Opinions about what? I have no idea what it is exactly they are proposing to do, and I don't know anyone else that does, either.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Opinions about what? I have no idea what it is exactly they are proposing to do, and I don't know anyone else that does, either.

About the study. If you don't have any comments here are some you can use.

 

http://www.usrkba.org/commenting-on-the-atf-shotgun-study

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Yeah, this is all completely wrong. The gun has to have 10 or MORE parts to be 922r compliant.

 

 

-Jim

 

Dude. It's pretty bad when you are being corrected for correcting incorrectly. It is indeed 10 or FEWER foreign-made parts. That is why you only need to swap out 4 parts on a completely Russian manufactured gun with US-made parts to be compliant. Otherwise, you'd have to swap out 10 parts.

 

Got it? If not, take it to the 922r forum where you'll believe the answers.

 

I agree but he IS half right.

 

You CAN NOT use your Russian 5 round mag if you've changed your weapon from it's "sporter" state and your compliance parts do NOT add up after the foreign mag is inserted. i.e. You change your thread protector for an American muzzle device, because in that case you would be forced to use American mags.

[inzami 36]

ATF Importation branch states that imports on Form 6's which were already approved will be released even if there's a ruling against Saiga shotgun so there may be some new shipments.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Inzami

[oldyeller 1]

ATF Importation branch states that imports on Form 6's which were already approved will be released even if there's a ruling against Saiga shotgun so there may be some new shipments.

 

Yea, bend over for those!

[sickness 89]

sorry, i was making a guess and really didnt put a whole lot of thought into it, i just typed it. but you get my point. any new product would have a limited, profitable lifespan.

 

There are a great many factors you are not considering..

 

Not ANY new product will have a profitable lifespan. Some new products, maybe.. particularly things that are inexpensive to manufacture and which provide a good mark-up -- those products might be made still. Recoil buffers. Trivial crap like that. Or totally revolutionary products that completely transcend all the limitations of previous products.. something that the majority of S12 owners would consider buying without a moments hesitation.. A moderately priced electric-powered magazine which feeds shells from a belt.. something like that.

 

There will be far less incentive to make incrementally better new products, though. I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that, but it is an economic reality. If the status quo is preserved, the sky is the limit on how popular these guns get, and what new products are made for them. But new guns are required for this process to work..

 

New users make for a certain liquidity .. a fresh supply of guns and newb owners who have no accessories means long-time users can sell their old accessories, re-coup some bread and buy the latest and greatest. A fresh supply of guns also means that long-time owners can buy new guns to fit with the latest and greatest accessories, without ending up with a box of picatinny rails and parts that just goes to waste.

 

Without new guns in need of new accessories.. there will be no (or, very few) new accessories.

Edited April 5, 2011 by sickness

[yooper14.5 84]

sorry, i was making a guess and really didnt put a whole lot of thought into it, i just typed it. but you get my point. any new product would have a limited, profitable lifespan.

 

There are a great many factors you are not considering..

 

Not ANY new product will have a profitable lifespan. Some new products, maybe.. particularly things that are inexpensive to manufacture and which provide a good mark-up -- those products might be made still. Recoil buffers. Trivial crap like that. Or totally revolutionary products that completely transcend all the limitations of previous products.. something that the majority of S12 owners would consider buying without a moments hesitation.. A moderately priced electric-powered magazine which feeds shells from a belt.. something like that.

 

There will be far less incentive to make incrementally better new products, though. I'm sorry if you don't want to accept that, but it is an economic reality. If the status quo is preserved, the sky is the limit on how popular these guns get, and what new products are made for them. But new guns are required for this process to work..

 

New users make for a certain liquidity .. a fresh supply of guns and newb owners who have no accessories means long-time users can sell their old accessories, re-coup some bread and buy the latest and greatest. A fresh supply of guns also means that long-time owners can buy new guns to fit with the latest and greatest accessories, without ending up with a box of picatinny rails and parts that just goes to waste.

 

Without new guns in need of new accessories.. there will be no (or, very few) new accessories.

 

sorry, i guess by "new" i should have been more detailed; revolutionary designs is what i was talking about. i was thinking new as in new concept, not new to the market.

[elvis christ 451]

Back to the original topic, I see no reason, based on the ATF's definitions in the 68 GCA, that the S12 should not be allowed to be imported. It meets all the requirements, and then some. I guess I'll write a letter.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I am considering writing the NRA and telling them that if they do not put this issue at the top of their priority list and take serious action I will not be renewing my membership. There is a small 1 page article on page 76 of the April issue of American Rifleman(an NRA magizine). I would hope that they get more proactive about this issue immediatly. I have already emailed my represenitives and encourage more people to do so.