Thoughts on 5.56 vs 5.45

[thunderheart 1]

I've had my IZ-114 since last May and I really love it. But the price of surplus 5.45x39 sure makes it look more attractive to shoot. Anyone have any thoughts on trading? I'd be curious to hear from people who own both and especially would appreciate links to research on ballistic and wound data that anyone might have handy.

 

Thanks,

 

Thunderheart

[jimdigriz 580]

I've had my IZ-114 since last May and I really love it. But the price of surplus 5.45x39 sure makes it look more attractive to shoot. Anyone have any thoughts on trading? I'd be curious to hear from people who own both and especially would appreciate links to research on ballistic and wound data that anyone might have handy.

 

I have both, though I rarely shoot the 223. You get more choices of bullets in 223/5.56, with more potent bullets available. You also get more complexity. My head was spinning reading all of the arguments about XM193 vs M855 and the various other types. I appreciate about 5.45 that you really only need one bullet type (7N6) for everything, whereas with 223 you need the cheap steel case ammo for practicing, but the more expensive and more lethal XM193 or M855 for stockpiling, and maybe the even more expensive Hornady for home defense, etc. It kind of bugs me that the cheap steel case stuff is ballisticly ineffective, and of course is likely to have a slightly different zero than the stuff you would use to defend yourself. It also bugs me that .223 loses its main wounding mechanism after 100-150 yards (depending on barrel length), but 7N6 will pretty much always tumble in flesh. Besides all this, the mag situation is not that good with the 223.

 

Mind you, I think it can make a GREAT home defense weapon. I like that it will lose potency rapidly on going through a wall or two, and is unlikely to exit my house with any gas left, having slowed down and pretty much broken up. However, I still turn mostly to the 5.45 for home defense, since I trust it more in terms of reliability. The round is inherently more reliable for feeding and extraction, due to the bullet and case design.

 

Having said all of this, I would say don't get the 5.45 unless you want to embark on a significant stockpiling program. There are supply and pricing risks with the caliber, and you want to have a decent amount laid up if you are going to depend on it.

 

Best solution: Get Saigas in both calibers.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Jim Digriz

[thunderheart 1]

Best solution: Get Saigas in both calibers.

 

Yep that option certainly occurred to me. Thought about maybe keeping my .223 and getting a cheap 5.45 from Classic Arms with a couple of cases of cheap ammo. They have a tantal for < $400 usually and 15 cents a round delivered is very attractive.

 

As for home defense I lean a different way. Layered system starting with my fur-coated razor blade/alarm system (Roxy the Wunderhund), backed by 5 12 ga rounds, backed by 24 rounds of 9x18. I figure by the time all that has gone off my two LEO neighbors will have engaged, I'll be dead or both. Anything that would or could stick around after all that is a very robust AND very motivated fellow. The lack or high velocity rifle rounds whizzing through there homes definitely would help ingratiate the neighbors of course.

 

Now for the Apocalypse my system is a little different. SKS's and 91/30s for handout guns and the .223 as my personal carbine. Was wondering if a 5.45 might replace the .223 in that role. Could stock almost twice as much ammo $for$.

[jimdigriz 580]

As for home defense I lean a different way. Layered system starting with my fur-coated razor blade/alarm system (Roxy the Wunderhund), backed by 5 12 ga rounds, backed by 24 rounds of 9x18. I figure by the time all that has gone off my two LEO neighbors will have engaged, I'll be dead or both. Anything that would or could stick around after all that is a very robust AND very motivated fellow. The lack or high velocity rifle rounds whizzing through there homes definitely would help ingratiate the neighbors of course.

 

I understand where you are coming from. But there is a reason why a lot of SWAT operators are switching to 5.56 carbines for indoor usage.

 

I like to design my system to at least potentially withstand multiple home invaders with body armor and rifles. (That is, worst case scenario). 12 gauge is great, but will not penetrate body armor. 5 rounds doesn't give you much fire power, and 9x18 is somewhat weak. Such would be more than sufficient for the vast majority of scenarios, but I hate to leave any uncovered.

 

 

Now for the Apocalypse my system is a little different. SKS's and 91/30s for handout guns and the .223 as my personal carbine. Was wondering if a 5.45 might replace the .223 in that role. Could stock almost twice as much ammo $for$.

 

You wouldn't need lots of rounds for the Apocalypse. One spam can would be more than enough. Stockpiling is mostly for future practice needs.

 

If you want a major upgrade for unlikely SHTF scenarios, consider a 308.

[thunderheart 1]

 

I like to design my system to at least potentially withstand multiple home invaders with body armor and rifles. (That is, worst case scenario). 12 gauge is great, but will not penetrate body armor. 5 rounds doesn't give you much fire power, and 9x18 is somewhat weak. Such would be more than sufficient for the vast majority of scenarios, but I hate to leave any uncovered.

 

 

Dang Jim! If I ever come over to your house I am definitely gonna knock first! I always imagine that anyone breaking into my house is after crack money more than likely. Their convictions tend to erode pretty quickly after the shooting starts. I agree though that my home defense firearms would not be that lethal against well trained, well equipped intruders bent on killing me. Then again I doubt my cardiovascular system would stand up to that scenario either.

 

 

You wouldn't need lots of rounds for the Apocalypse. One spam can would be more than enough. Stockpiling is mostly for future practice needs.

 

If you want a major upgrade for unlikely SHTF scenarios, consider a 308.

 

Yeah I would love to have a 308 but doubt I could afford to shoot it. Would be nice though ...

[Scott Kenny 144]

Still peddling the .223 tumbles myths? NO. 5.56 NATO does not tumble. If it did, you couldn't hit anything past 50 feet, nevermind 500m.

 

XM193 is 55gr FMJ, early production, with a fairly clean-burning powder. M193 went to a dirtier powder, need to clean the weapon more. M855 is 62 grain steel-cored AP stuff, much longer bullet than the M193, and needs a faster twist (at least 1 in 9") than 55gr. That's why you can't shoot M855 in the M16A1s but could shoot M193 in the SAW.

 

With a shotgun, you're delivering so much energy that you don't need to get through the vest. Whoever you hit will have broken ribs and a bruised heart. It's like the difference between a sword and a mace. Both will kill you, but a mace doesn't need to penetrate your armor to do it.

 

And my zombiepocalypse gun is a PSL.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Still peddling the .223 tumbles myths? NO. 5.56 NATO does not tumble. If it did, you couldn't hit anything past 50 feet, nevermind 500m.

I really dont think he is saying it tumbles through the air, it tumbles inside flesh...

[JAldrich2008 28]

Still peddling the .223 tumbles myths? NO. 5.56 NATO does not tumble. If it did, you couldn't hit anything past 50 feet, nevermind 500m.

 

They're talking about it tumbling as it passes through flesh, not in the air.

 

 

ETA: Beefcake beat me to the punch... I guess great minds think alike.

Edited April 3, 2011 by JoeAldrich

[vulcan16 971]

Best solution: Get Saigas in both calibers.

 

Yep that option certainly occurred to me. Thought about maybe keeping my .223 and getting a cheap 5.45 from Classic Arms with a couple of cases of cheap ammo. They have a tantal for < $400 usually and 15 cents a round delivered is very attractive.

 

As for home defense I lean a different way. Layered system starting with my fur-coated razor blade/alarm system (Roxy the Wunderhund), backed by 5 12 ga rounds, backed by 24 rounds of 9x18. I figure by the time all that has gone off my two LEO neighbors will have engaged, I'll be dead or both. Anything that would or could stick around after all that is a very robust AND very motivated fellow. The lack or high velocity rifle rounds whizzing through there homes definitely would help ingratiate the neighbors of course.

 

Now for the Apocalypse my system is a little different. SKS's and 91/30s for handout guns and the .223 as my personal carbine. Was wondering if a 5.45 might replace the .223 in that role. Could stock almost twice as much ammo $for$.

 

The CIA Polish Tantal is a very good shooter. I have a couple of Saiga 223s, one 7.62, and a Saiga 5.45.

For $400 THE Tantal with all of its features is a very good buy.

[Lcpl Martin 4]

Still peddling the .223 tumbles myths? NO. 5.56 NATO does not tumble. If it did, you couldn't hit anything past 50 feet, nevermind 500m.

 

XM193 is 55gr FMJ, early production, with a fairly clean-burning powder. M193 went to a dirtier powder, need to clean the weapon more. M855 is 62 grain steel-cored AP stuff, much longer bullet than the M193, and needs a faster twist (at least 1 in 9") than 55gr. That's why you can't shoot M855 in the M16A1s but could shoot M193 in the SAW.

 

With a shotgun, you're delivering so much energy that you don't need to get through the vest. Whoever you hit will have broken ribs and a bruised heart. It's like the difference between a sword and a mace. Both will kill you, but a mace doesn't need to penetrate your armor to do it.

 

And my zombiepocalypse gun is a PSL.

 

you are an IDIOT Jesus Christ. Tumbling reference to how it tumbled in flesh.

[rob-cubed 74]

Thunderheart, get a 5.45 too! Justify it this way, it'll pay for itself in ammo savings after shooting a couple of tins of 7N6 vs the same 2K rounds through an AR.

[Dorky_D 8]

Jim, where did you get your info on .223 ballistics? I am not questioning your post, just curious to learn more. As I am starting my stockpile, I am interested in a good all around bullet if possible and what tubles the best etc. Thanks!

 

To all FYI - I found that Centerfire Systems seems to have some of the cheapest .223 I have seen. They sell Wolf in FMJ, and HP. They have 55, 62 and 75 grain. I just bought 1,000 rounds in 62 HP and 100 in 75. I want to test the 75 before I buy a ton of these.

 

I choose the .223 because the ammo can be found at Walmart and any other retailer. The 5.45 not so much. This could change. Hornady is the only other manufacture that I know of that makes it. Yep it is cheap and tempting, but I wanted to make sure I could get food for the thing. I think ballistically speaking they are very similar (I am not an expert), compared to the 7.62 in various formats. The .223 can put a man down, as well as varmits at a reasonable price. There are enough mag choices out there to properly confuse you, but there are foreign and domestic options (including AR mag options). If I had to be in a lead fight, I would be sending more than one round into the bad guy to make sure, but I would probably do that with anything I was shooting.

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim, where did you get your info on .223 ballistics? I am not questioning your post, just curious to learn more. As I am starting my stockpile, I am interested in a good all around bullet if possible and what tubles the best etc. Thanks!

 

Lots of places. Just start googling. Here is one of the more important links though:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/

[essohbe 47]

If it's helps, the main reasons I got 5.45 over .223 was the price, the ammo itself meaning your practice and stockpile will be the same things pretty much, and the fact the round is made for AK74 barrel vs. the NATO limited by barrel length. I also don't like the little rounds that much, 5.45 being an exception (ok, .22lr too!). I got plenty of 7.62x39 for my "reliable avaialability" caliber.

[GregM1 241]

Still peddling the .223 tumbles myths? NO. 5.56 NATO does not tumble. If it did, you couldn't hit anything past 50 feet, nevermind 500m.

 

XM193 is 55gr FMJ, early production, with a fairly clean-burning powder. M193 went to a dirtier powder, need to clean the weapon more. M855 is 62 grain steel-cored AP stuff, much longer bullet than the M193, and needs a faster twist (at least 1 in 9") than 55gr. That's why you can't shoot M855 in the M16A1s but could shoot M193 in the SAW.

 

 

I think it is CAI that is responisble for the myth of the tumbling 223. they put a bunch of .223 barrels on some tantals years ago and lots of keyholing was the result. the smaller 5.45 bullet in the 5.56 barrel, under those pressures, caused aerodynamic malfunctions.

 

my saiga likes 62gr. it has the standard 1:9.44" twist.