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#1 Steve718

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 07:55 PM

Hi guys, Im new here, done some searching/creepin the posts and have a few questions.

My girlfriends got a converted S-12 with the standard AK style Tapco stock on it. Its a bit too long and the recoil is a little much for her. She likes shooting my ARs with M4 style collapsable stock on them so I was thinking of putting one on her Saiga with some sort of extended butt pad. I saw Tapco makes a cheap one but Id rather not put some nylon recevier extension junk on there. I want to use a tube like this http://store.carolin...lapsible/Detail since her gun has the tang still on it, and put a standard M4 style stock with slip over limbsaver recoil pad on it. Has anyone seen a standard M4 stock without the tube and will it fit over this tube? Or is there anywhere I can buy a standard M4 style stock with a AK receiver extension tube? Im not totally against putting a CTR, MOE, EMOD, etc on there either but I couldn't find much for recoil pads on them.

Also I have a similar converted S-12 and want to put a DPH skeleton stock on it but I have the tang still too. I am torn between installing a Tromix weld on plate and drilling through my pretty welded up receiver holes to install a receiver block. Any pros and cons for either setup? Opinions?

BTW awesome site! And CSS is awesome! I ordered some stuff Friday after 5pm and it was at my doorstep Monday morning!

Steve

Heres a pic of what we are working with
Attached File  IMG_20110404_181325.jpg   1.12MB   8 downloads



#2 Chowderhead72

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:18 PM

Something like this?
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#3 Steve718

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:34 PM

Something like that for the most part. I like the CTR stocks but she wants some kind of heavy duty recoil but pad .5"-1" thick (limbsaver) and I havent seen any for the CTR. I was thinking this http://store.carolin...BLE-AK47/Detail but with an aluminum tube and not the chincy polymer receiver tube.

#4 L5K

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 08:39 PM

That tube you linked from CSS would work fine for any M4 stock that is a commercial size.

Basically for the AR carbine stocks there is Mil-spec and Commercial sized tubes. While I do not know why there are these different sizes I do know the difference. The commercial one is a slightly larger diameter on the tube, and a slightly smaller diameter where the threads screw into the receiver. So realistically the only difference this makes is that when you buy a stock to put on that tube, you will have to make sure you get a "commercial" stock instead of a "mil-spec" stock. Both are just as sturdy as each other, and since you aren't screwing it into a lower receiver for an AR I wouldn't worry about it one bit. As an example here is the diagram from Magpul showing the difference in the commercial and mil-spec stock tubes. Diagram

As far as recoil pads on the Magpul stocks you mentioned, they do make them, but they are not really designed to be reducing recoil like on a 12 gauge so I'm not sure how effective they would be. But yeah, all you need is that tube, and then buy a commercial sized stock assembly. Most any company who makes stocks for the AR will have them available in both sizes. As far as another manufacturer for a tube like that, I know for a fact that VLTOR makes a unit like that, I don't know if it's commercial or mil-spec sized, but I have never heard anything bad about it at all.
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#5 JoeAldrich

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:37 PM

How about something like this? It's not aluminum, but it is very solid and has a nice soft recoil pad.

Edit: I guess the recoil pad isn't on it in this picture...

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Edited by JoeAldrich, 04 April 2011 - 10:38 PM.


#6 TacticoolTim

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 11:57 PM

How about something like this? It's not aluminum, but it is very solid and has a nice soft recoil pad.

Edit: I guess the recoil pad isn't on it in this picture...


Oh. I thought you were going to say to brace it on the rubber bumper pad. That would definitely take the kick out of it.
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#7 JoeAldrich

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:23 AM

Yeah, you lose some mobility though... :lolol:

#8 sickness

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:11 AM

Hi guys, Im new here, done some searching/creepin the posts and have a few questions.

My girlfriends got a converted S-12 with the standard AK style Tapco stock on it. Its a bit too long and the recoil is a little much for her.



If the recoil is too much, why even bother changing out the stock? Wouldn't it make more sense to get her a gun she can handle more effectively? This is especially important if the S12 is supposed to be her go-to gun for HD.

I would recommend a pistol caliber carbine for the ladies. I have a Kel-Tec Sub2k in 9mm using Glock mags. It is soft shooting, lightweight, and with +P loads develops energy at 50yds which rivals a 357 mag handgun at the muzzle. We keep it with a 30 rd extended Glock magazine.. but most important.. my woman is wicked with it. She practices the Mozambique drill at ranges between 25 and 70 yds with that gun, and it is scary.. to me anyhow.. maybe cuz I'm the only person she ever gets mad at.

She can pop off the 3 rounds with better accuracy and control than with a handgun, and can do so in about the same amount of time it takes her to recover from the recoil of a normal buckshot round and get the heavy S12 back on target. More importantly, she can shoot the 9mm all day long.. the ammo is cheap, her arms don't get tired and her shoulder doesn't take a beating.

9mm out of a carbine is a formidable round, and the speed she gains from using a smaller gun would be a serious tactical advantage for her against multiple intruders.

When it comes to HD, the machismo and image/attitude needs to get left at the door. If you're faster, and more accurate with a 9mm than a 12ga - then you are more deadly with a 9mm and you need to grab it if your life is in danger. Ballistics are as useful as tits on a bull in firefight.
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#9 K.o.t.H.

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 09:37 AM

Get her a S-410.
.

#10 TR Young

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 09:48 AM

I like the CAA 6-position stock. It has a recoil pad built in, and it doesn't have that annoying exit angle that the Tapco collapsable stock has; it is directly in-line with the receiver.

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#11 WhiskeyMinion

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:35 AM

Get her a S-410.



That's my old ladies secondary HD gun. 5'1" and she can unload it in a fury with precision.

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And before people say .410's are too small for HD. Seventy five .30+ cal projectiles will stop the threat.

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#12 TacticoolTim

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:54 AM

If the recoil is too much, why even bother changing out the stock? Wouldn't it make more sense to get her a gun she can handle more effectively? This is especially important if the S12 is supposed to be her go-to gun for HD.

I would recommend a pistol caliber carbine for the ladies. I have a Kel-Tec Sub2k in 9mm using Glock mags. It is soft shooting, lightweight, and with +P loads develops energy at 50yds which rivals a 357 mag handgun at the muzzle. We keep it with a 30 rd extended Glock magazine.. but most important.. my woman is wicked with it. She practices the Mozambique drill at ranges between 25 and 70 yds with that gun, and it is scary.. to me anyhow.. maybe cuz I'm the only person she ever gets mad at.

She can pop off the 3 rounds with better accuracy and control than with a handgun, and can do so in about the same amount of time it takes her to recover from the recoil of a normal buckshot round and get the heavy S12 back on target. More importantly, she can shoot the 9mm all day long.. the ammo is cheap, her arms don't get tired and her shoulder doesn't take a beating.

9mm out of a carbine is a formidable round, and the speed she gains from using a smaller gun would be a serious tactical advantage for her against multiple intruders.

When it comes to HD, the machismo and image/attitude needs to get left at the door. If you're faster, and more accurate with a 9mm than a 12ga - then you are more deadly with a 9mm and you need to grab it if your life is in danger. Ballistics are as useful as tits on a bull in firefight.


Very well put. I have a Ruger PC4 carbine for the very same reasons. I would grab it before the 12 gauge in a HD situation almost every time. IMHO, a pistol carbine is tough to beat inside the house. Of course I prefer the 40 cal to the 9mm but let's not get into that. Either would work fine.

With prices these days, you should easily be able to sell the 12 and buy whatever you want. Or, if possible, keep it and get the carbine too.

Only other things mentioned that need comment from me is the stock. You said it had a "standard" Tapco stock. Those are available in Warsaw and NATO lengths. NATO is about an inch and a quarter longer and could make a difference. My custom stock is 1/2 inch shorter than NATO and fits me perfectly.The Tromix weld on would be easier and cheaper for you if you have access to a welder. Other than that, good luck.
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#13 guido2

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 11:30 AM

Hello

I say keep the S-12 and score an Ace stock. Not only are they good looking and very durable, but extended buttpads up to 1" in thickness are available that really soak up the recoil.
My 5'4" wife shoots my S-12's and S-17 all day long. And no, she's not some Amazonian-type.

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#14 kindapointless

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:13 PM

I actually have a poll over in general right now about this. My old lady can't handle the s12 recoil and I have the limbsaver on a m4 stock. I think its the least recoil of any of my long guns but she still doesnt like it

Edited by kindapointless, 05 April 2011 - 02:15 PM.


#15 Steve718

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 03:00 PM

Id say its more of an ergonomics issue rather than recoil with the AK style stock. She shoots my Benelli SBEII and 870s all day with no problems. IMHO the AK stock just doesnt work well for a pistol gripped Saiga. Maybe its a personal preference but I cant stand them (on S-12s).



#16 sickness

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 11:11 PM

I actually have a poll over in general right now about this. My old lady can't handle the s12 recoil and I have the limbsaver on a m4 stock. I think its the least recoil of any of my long guns but she still doesnt like it


Everyone experiences recoil differently. A friend thinks his 308 semi kicks harder than the S12, while I disagree. A friend thinks they are the same. Machines would give a different result.
Who is right?

I don't really believe there is an answer. There are a lot of variables to it, and frame size/weight and strength aren't the only things. Elasticity of ligaments and tendons when absorbing recoil shock .. some people fine stretching painful. Especially without a warm up. Sensitivity of the inner ear to sound pressure can cause disorientation .. it can be overcome, largely .. with practice and hearing protection .. but some of the sound travels through your skeleton, and some people just have a more sensitive ear and find softer shooting guns preferable.

Everyone's comfort zone for all these things are different, and we'll each have a different reaction to a different gun or class of guns.

There is no shame in it. Modern gas and recoil operated arms can be very soft shooting and still carry a lethal threat. Different muzzle devices and suppressors and such can help too if they are legal in your configuration.

For good reasons, if we can shoot a bigger gun - like a 12ga - and do it effectively, we should. In the same way, if an exceptionally strong and tall swordsman wanted use a 45" blade, it is in his best interest to do so. But that doesn't mean an average person should try to use a 45" sword. Use the weapon that suits you, and makes you dangerous - and then figure out strategies and tactics to suit your strengths.

Your wife doesn't like the 12ga. Cool. Try a pistol caliber carbine. Find a gun that she runs a mag through - laughs - and says "Cool!". That is her gun.

I like 9mm in a carbine, myself.. mostly because you can still find loads of cheap foreign ammo and just shoot it all up.. I like to spend time practicing, not reloading. 40 S&W is great too.. personally, I call the capacity advantage vs power advantage of between 9mm and .40 a wash. Use what you like, and is compatible with your other arms. There are few new carbines out in those calibers, if you don't mind plastic parts. If you want something milspec rugged, a lot of guys swear by the M1 Carbine based on USGI parts.. $700 or so, if you get something with all mismatched serials and a beater stock.

Some people like to spend major bucks on the weapons they want for HD. Buy top of the line if your life might depend on it .. that sort of thinking. If you can afford it, and especially if you're in a state where you can get an SBR stamp .. look at the Kriss carbine in .45 ACP. I had the pleasure to shoot one of those.. granted its all subjective...but I thought it felt like a high velocity .22LR. I shot it will the full 16" barrel, but cutting one down to 12" or 10" would be great.

Too expensive for me.. at least at this point. For the money, there are a few high-powered rifles I'd want first.. but I wouldn't mind picking up a Kriss some day.

Edited by sickness, 05 April 2011 - 11:28 PM.

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