Reliability Mods vs. "Break In" vs. "Quick Fixes"

[Machinist 150]

I manage a CNC shop and have a journeymens machinist card, sent a year in college and got married and had two children which ended my chance of working my way thru college as a machinist. I designed and build "things" that required top secret investigation from the FBI to quote the parts. IMHO and 38 years working with metals, and considered by many to be an expert in my chosen field. I agree 100% with Pauly and Cobra, I don't know or have not met either man, but I would like too. They gave me enough information for me to build my guns into a shooting machine! I have access to very costly and precision CNC machines and could of tried to machine the parts but the varience from the factory caused me to hand fit the parts.If I knew how many hours the job required for me to sit down and study and truly understand how this gun operates, the timing of the lugs, how the parts are all related to each other to acheive the results of an excellant gun. I WOULD SHIP MY PARTS TO THESE GUYS! I have the satisfaction of doing the work myself, but these boys are doing a service worth at least 2-3 times what they charge. Please don't be offended but my guess is the overhead is very low in the shops they operate from. My hat is off to you guys and THANK YOU FOR OLL YOUR KNOWLEDGE YOU FREELY SHARED!!!!! By the way I searched and found all the answers on this forum and what Cobra and Pauly are presenting is legit information.

 

 

 

Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.

 

Personally, other than the money spent on fixing something that isn't broken, I agree........

 

............ I may have them do it anyway because of something else mentioned. Loading on a closed bolt................

Tim

That's the original reason for the mod being started in the first place.

 

As issues arose with reliability, the modification evolved into a different form for maximum friction & resistance reduction while maintaining the aspect of ease of mag insertion on a closed bolt.

That's how my personal process evolved at least.

 

Many people come from differing angles, but it's like the evolution of cars. There's only 1 shape that's the MOST aerodynamic, so they all are beginning to look similar.

 

We all eventually seem to end up with eachother's pieces to do different services that we all offer to different aspects of parts, so it's no secret between any of us what the other guys do. Eventually through competition they'll all be exactly the same regardless of who started what different aspect.

 

We're not quite there yet, but at that time if the S-12 is still around, hopefully for me at least, I'll be on to producing products that I can get the same out of as I do right now spending hours on 1 bolt & carrier set.

Every penny of profit goes back into the shop or invested into something else profitable for that purpose.

 

Honestly, if you think about it & deduct shipping costs, we're all doing a major modification brought to perfection for $80.00 which is chump-change for the amount of work, let alone skill. It could justifiably be sold for $255.00 at the going shop rate of $85.00 an hour.

Go to your local brick & mortar shop, show the guy a GlassBolt with FCG tuning & try to get that done for 80 bucks & they'll laugh you out of the shop being as they charge half that ($40.00 with a week turnaround) to simply take 10 minuets to run a dremel up your pistol's feed ramp & polish it.

 

Fact of the matter is that the AK crowd tends to be a touch tighter with the purse strings than say, the Sako crowd, so fees must be adjusted.

So yeah guys, GlassBolt won't be around forever.

Personally I don't intend on doing it for years & from what I understand, nobody else intends on doing theirs to their level for the going rate forever either.

 

These mods will eventually go the way of high quality hand crafted jewelry.

[BullF-16 0]

Id say just add a booster piston and Vplug and be done with it!

[Ignition 9]

I voted for polish and highbrass, with polish, #3, being first and #1 second

 

Reason: Just like anything else mechanical, friction can and will be a stopping point on moving parts. It just depends on how much and force required to overcome that. Now by design these are meant to eat a high powered russian slugs flaming diet, where as in the United States of walmart... we keep it cheap when it comes to range time and then pony up for when it counts. We all know vodka specials exist but if you dont know how it operates stock then you may not know the "exact" fix that should of been done

 

The problem that can arise by aftermarket parts first, is you've now added 10+ more variables to the weapon that didn't exist before, even more so if you aftermarket parts BEFORE shooting it. (this shouldnt count as buying it from a builder but not all may ensure you gun works prior to your buying it)

 

1. Prior to conversion or bolt polish, while still NIB. Take her out and do a functions check, including unscrewing the gas plug to check that some of it has been beveled off. Then screw the gas plug all the way down as far as it can go, then unscrew back to closest position which should be 1.

 

2. Buy some highpowered slugs and shoot about 10-20 of them. Enough that you can see the weapon functions properly, if not seek more help, yours could be vodka fueled.

 

3. Change gas setting to #2, then put 10-20 rounds of wally world bulk pack through it, and experience the mirad of FTF and FTEs. Welcome to the world of wtf... dont worry we will get passed this hump.

 

4. Disassemble and you should now have a some signs of where the metal has been rubbing on the internals, and as long as you could fire slugs without any FTE, shouldn't have to worry about the gas ports (that being said its not a guarantee)

 

5. After reassembling SLOWLY and manually hand cycle the weapon to feel the friction. Then take a fully loaded mag and try to insert on a closed bolt, GL, once that is accomplished rinse and repeat step 5

 

6. Now you can tell if, which 99.5% of those needing this advice will, if there is a lot of friction going into the functioning of this weapon, and understand how cheaply underpowered bulk pack ammo may not give the best results, although that is what 99.5% of elmer fudds who try to shoot this weapon will judge it on, its ability to handle bulk pack compared to their remmy 870.

 

7. Choose DIY or professional board members to do your polishing/reprofiling.

7a.I recommend if you choose the DIYs method then follow in this order: polish first for the bolt and feed ramp, repeat steps 1-6, and notice the difference in action. If you can cycle wally world on setting #2 then your golden for the most part. If your cycling wally on #1, well chances are you either overgassed or overgassed. Then you can come back and if you need to grind down the bottom of the bolt some more and go over the friction points, to include rails and the portion of the bolt that comes into contact with the round from the magazine. Imo you can polish the hammer but do not grind on it as you may remove needed tolerances to actually strike the firing pin

 

7b. Choosing the board member will ensure that they give the weapon the special attention it needs without you having to worry about screwing up your firearm. They know their business and reputation is on the line, and in the age of the internet being a crappy firearms store wont let you last long on the sole income from fudds. On the flip side you will find nothing but happy customers from these guys on the boards which speaks more than enough.

 

8. Now repeat steps 1-6, you weapon should of increased in reliability immensely, and now may feed the american cheaper by the bulk pack dream dependably. Now if you still have issues its time to look back at your ports, gas plug, and other aftermarket parts (992r yourself!). If you replace the front grip with an aftermarket grip or tri/quad rail setup, you may find your reliability has gone down, this is due to a small side vent on some S-12s which may need to be tig welded shut. Also then you may want to look at a more adjustable plug, im personally a fan of the V-Plug for more control of the gas. You also may want to look at the booster puck from MDarms (although Im trying to stay vendor specific, you cant compare this to any other puck atm, when it comes to helping reliability after steps 1-7 have already been taken)

 

After these steps it can vary so much in what you choose to do with your weapon, if you havent converted by this step and your thinking of it, the first thing you replace is that fucking shephard's crook with CSS pin retainer plate. Then the rest is personal taste and vendor neutral as well.

[StudentDeSaiga 2]

Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.

 

Loading on a closed bolt. It's not that I can't do it (after some practice) but I have an aversion to letting my Saiga 12 sit with a shell being pressed against the bolt and figure with the bolt relieved this would be less of a problem. I may be wrong, but assume there would be less chance of deformation and FTF if this modification were performed. Other than the Russian answer of steel cased shells (Can we get any?) I keep a slug as the top round in the magazine. I believe it was Pauly that offered this tip.

 

Tim

 

Same boat here. Flawless performance, don't want to change anything mechanically but worry about that top round. I've been rotating which shell sits on top. Like the polished look but would settle for just the bolt mod, however if I'm going to send it off might as well get it all done

[JC GoF 70]

Well I did send my bolt out and it ran great and still runs great!!! will shoot what ever I throw at it on setting 1. Did the rest of mods my self and love this gun

[Redemption 5]

I voted polish some and drill some. There are numerous Saiga detailers on here that will do it for you if you can't do it yourself but it is mostly just that that.......detailing. Anyone can do this. Just follow the friction line that is created when cycling and sculpt the material along this line.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

So, in your opinion, would the bolt relief work help keep the top shell in the magazine from deforming while it sat for extended periods? If so, I'll probably get the polish work done just for peace of mind.

 

Gaining the ability to easily load a full mag on a closed bolt, is only a small part of the reason for doing the bolt mods.....but it's a good reason. Even a gun that runs great right out of the box can benefit in this way from it. What this also does of course, is solve the problem (for the most part) of "top round deformation". It's pretty nice to be able to leave the gun loaded and ready for action, without having the top round get squashed to the point where it won't feed. No unmodified factory gun will allow you to do that. You can leave a slug, or a steel cased load, or even a shorter, low recoil load on top of the stack, but if that's not what you want to shoot, then it's better to have your bolt fixed where that won't be as much of an issue.

I know one thing....in my personal gun I can leave a fully loaded mag in there for at least a week, with regular bird shot on top, and then pick it up and rack the bolt, and it feeds. I tested this with a 12 SGM mag for one week, just to see.

I can also very easily lock the front lug and rock any S-12 mag, or drum into the weapon, with no problem. Of course the 20 rd drums were not designed with enough free play to allow loading in any gun on a closed bolt, and be able to charge the weapon....but I can easily load either the Promag or MD 20 rd drum on my closed bolts with 19 rds in them.

 

To me, just those two advantages alone are plenty of reason to do the mods. The flawlessly smooth cycling is just icing on the cake.

 

Edit >>

Wow...Holy crap, this was my 15,000 th post I think....

 

[ICarryIWB 2]

Not making an attempt at trying to sound like a tough guy or anything, but I have absolutely no intention of ever running anything but high brass out of my S12. I don't mind spending some money to feed the gun what it was designed to cycle. If I want to run low brass, I'll just use a different gun. Problem solved.

[JOCELLO15 2]

I agree,ive never tried to shoot low brass because that is not what i am going to defend myself with.Saying that,I have never had a problem right out of the box but i did polish the bolt because i wanted it to feel smoother when i racked the weapon.All in all im not going to try and shoot someone with birdshot so im not going to practice with it either I do like the look of Paulys bolts though!!! might have to get that done lol

[timy 1,185]

Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.

 

Loading on a closed bolt. It's not that I can't do it (after some practice) but I have an aversion to letting my Saiga 12 sit with a shell being pressed against the bolt and figure with the bolt relieved this would be less of a problem. I may be wrong, but assume there would be less chance of deformation and FTF if this modification were performed. Other than the Russian answer of steel cased shells (Can we get any?) I keep a slug as the top round in the magazine. I believe it was Pauly that offered this tip.

 

Tim

 

Same boat here. Flawless performance, don't want to change anything mechanically but worry about that top round. I've been rotating which shell sits on top. Like the polished look but would settle for just the bolt mod, however if I'm going to send it off might as well get it all done

 

Agreed. So.... I'll send mine to Cobra if you send yours to Pauly.

[timy 1,185]

So, in your opinion, would the bolt relief work help keep the top shell in the magazine from deforming while it sat for extended periods? If so, I'll probably get the polish work done just for peace of mind.

 

Gaining the ability to easily load a full mag on a closed bolt, is only a small part of the reason for doing the bolt mods.....but it's a good reason. Even a gun that runs great right out of the box can benefit in this way from it. What this also does of course, is solve the problem (for the most part) of "top round deformation". It's pretty nice to be able to leave the gun loaded and ready for action, without having the top round get squashed to the point where it won't feed. No unmodified factory gun will allow you to do that. You can leave a slug, or a steel cased load, or even a shorter, low recoil load on top of the stack, but if that's not what you want to shoot, then it's better to have your bolt fixed where that won't be as much of an issue.

I know one thing....in my personal gun I can leave a fully loaded mag in there for at least a week, with regular bird shot on top, and then pick it up and rack the bolt, and it feeds. I tested this with a 12 SGM mag for one week, just to see.

I can also very easily lock the front lug and rock any S-12 mag, or drum into the weapon, with no problem. Of course the 20 rd drums were not designed with enough free play to allow loading in any gun on a closed bolt, and be able to charge the weapon....but I can easily load either the Promag or MD 20 rd drum on my closed bolts with 19 rds in them.

 

To me, just those two advantages alone are plenty of reason to do the mods. The flawlessly smooth cycling is just icing on the cake.

 

Edit >>

Wow...Holy crap, this was my 15,000 th post I think....

 

 

I appreciate the time and effort you put into your explanation. I could have learned at least some of it by visiting your site. I hadn't done so before because with the shotgun running well I wasn't really looking for what I perceived to be mainly a fix for cycling issues. I'll be sending mine to you within a month or so. If you will indulge my paranoia a bit, I have two more questions. Since it cycles alright as is, will it be too loose after polishing? And.... Does recessing the bolt for the top round cause any structural integrity problems with it? Or, am I just trying to over think things?

 

Congratulations on your 15,000th post! Wow, that's a lot!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thanks timy,

No the bolt mods don't do anything to a well cycling gun but make it cycle smoother and with less effort, along with the gained advantages where the top round is concerned. It won't lose any structural integrity either, unless someone who doesn't know where to stop removing metal, takes it so far down that they punch all the way through to the inside of the bolt cavity. There is a fine line that must not be crossed.

 

[admbleg 35]

Great post Cobra

[Nailbomb 10,221]

You can get 3" magnum high brass at affordable prices. I've shared this plenty of times. Look for 100 round packs of the winchester goose and duck loads.

 

I picked up 250rounds of winchester 3" #2 for $90. thats enough to easily break in 2 guns.

 

let the surfaces get to know each other. then try to get some low brass through it.

 

If only expiriencing partial sucess or none at all, send it in for work to CGW on RAA's dime.

 

if its not a RAA, get to polishing.

 

If it is working, hell still get to polishing. It won't hurt. a little extra bolt clearance to load mags easier dosn't hurt unless you get too greedy, and everyone likes a smooth trigger pull.

[zaxon_182 44]

I have two S12's. My first is a 4 port made in 08 and she ran winchester wally-world crap packs flawlessly out of the box. My second one is destined for tromix to become an 8" sbs. Right now it won't cycle slugs on 1 or bird-shot on 2 for that matter. I've started polishing her up to get some mileage before I send it off, but I'm not too whipped. I have full faith it'll run like a raped ape after Tony is done with it.

[Paulyski 2,227]

There are numerous Saiga detailers on here that will do it for you if you can't do it yourself but it is mostly just that that.......detailing. Anyone can do this.

I'd be interested to see what you came up with & how long it took you?

Perfect finishing?

I don't doubt your ability, just curious.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

3 + 5 are the options for the guys that know.... the rest are for the ignorant. Sorry, but today is "tell it like it is" day.

 

Cobra,

Excellent writeup and summary of what the truth really consists of. I commend you, and hopefully, the community can move forward from here.

 

I almost fell out of my chair when I read the first choice in the poll

I wasn't around in the early days, but I see "break in" as a laughable concept today. The first 2 Saiga 12s that I owned were "needy" to say the least, but after hours of staring and work, they both ran great. Guys, there is much more too it than running a bunch of expensive ammo through it to make it run well on lighter loads....

 

FWIW, my most recent Saiga 12 ran through 5 rounds of mixed low power loads without a hiccup. I was completely puzzled as the concept of a NIB Saiga 12 running well with light loads is something that I didn't think was a possibility. I still haven't shot another round through it. I am scared of it for some reason. It just doesn't seem right

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

3 + 5 are the options for the guys that know.... the rest are for the ignorant. Sorry, but today is "tell it like it is" day...

 

... my most recent Saiga 12 ran through 5 rounds of mixed low power loads without a hiccup. I was completely puzzled as the concept of a NIB Saiga 12 running well with light loads is something that I didn't think was a possibility. I still haven't shot another round through it. I am scared of it for some reason. It just doesn't seem right

 

 

 

Some might say that spending time and $$$ to modify a gun to shoot ammo it wasn't intended to shoot is ignorant.

 

I hear you on your new Saiga though. I shot some bulk for the hell of it and everything cycled on #1

Edited April 25, 2011 by WhiskeyMinion

[davidvh86 0]

idk luckily mine worked great out the box so i didnt really need to do anything. But i think the only reason i purchased the gun is for the clip fed shells and legendary kalashnikov action. So since its kalashnikov based i expect it to live upto the name and cycle rounds wether clean or dirty, so i dont think polishing should be necessary or an acceptable means of making it reliable, its honestly more of a going the extra mile type of upgrade. If its not cycling properly i say send it out to get the gas system fixed and have a gun you can depend on instead of a gun that has just barely functions.

[Paulyski 2,227]

idk luckily mine worked great out the box so i didnt really need to do anything. But i think the only reason i purchased the gun is for the clip fed shells and legendary kalashnikov action. So since its kalashnikov based i expect it to live upto the name and cycle rounds wether clean or dirty, so i dont think polishing should be necessary or an acceptable means of making it reliable, its honestly more of a going the extra mile type of upgrade. If its not cycling properly i say send it out to get the gas system fixed and have a gun you can depend on instead of a gun that has just barely functions.

David, you're comparing apples to oranges.

 

A movie that's "Based on a true story" isn't the true story & a shotgun that's based on the AK platform isn't an AK.

 

Just this weekend a guy stopped by for a couple hours & we converted & ported his gun to the correct size & he's still having issues with weak rounds.

 

There's friction reduction & a bunch of other fixes to get these guns running everything reliably.

It's much more than polishing, it's about knowing ho to profile them correctly.

There's so much inconsistency in these Russian hand manufactured parts it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

One can port the shit out of a gun to beat it into submission & think they have something reliable because all they shoot is birdshot, but they really only have a glorified bb gun that accepts real ammo.

& that's if they get the gas block back on just right so they don't screw up the op-rod alignment that's hand set by the drunk Rusky.

 

Then, if they ever get the money to shoot real ammo out of it all that extra punch that their puck is delivering to their operating rod & carrier can break those parts.

 

 

Some might say that spending time and $$$ to modify a gun to shoot ammo it wasn't intended to shoot is ignorant.

Some might also say that having a gun around that won't shoot the vast majority of ammo that one might find in a survival situation is foolhardy.

 

 

I hear you on your new Saiga though. I shot some bulk for the hell of it and everything cycled on #1

You're fortunate, but you should look into a gas plug that regulates your gas better.

As your gun sits, if you load 3" magnum slugs you're really going to be beating the heck out of it.

[csmw 98]

IMHO....if you want to shoot low-brass:

 

1) Test fire bone stock w/ various brands of bulk ammo, and see where you are at. If 100% out-of the box, you are doing pretty well.

If not...

 

2) Re-repofile/polish all internal parts...http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66543-boltcarriertrigger-pack-reprofiling-polishing/

If you are still not there...

 

3) Head for the gas assembly. Check # of ports, how many are visible. If ports are ubstructed, knock off gas block and open up the hole to expose the factory ports.

If that doesn't do it...

 

4) Research the forum for porting info....do a little at a time, making sure to keep checking weapon's reactions to your modifications.

 

5) As long as you are in that deep, you might as well pull the bbl and throat it.

"Gas-ports & Throating...remove gas-block & barrel, adjust ports as needed, adjust gas-block regulator hole, throat/polish barrel, test-fire…additional $250." http://csm-w.com/products/index.html?id=115&submit=view

 

6) Once you get the gun cycling correctly on low-brass bulk, pick the most reliable brand for you're specific gun.

 

7) once running on low brass, purchase an adjustable gas regulator. http://csm-w.com/products/index.html?id=125&submit=view

 

8) if it is running almost perfectly, you can try the Booster piston. http://csm-w.com/products/index.html?id=124&submit=view

 

Any gun can be made to fire low brass reliably, through bolt/trigger-pack work, gas vents/block work, ammo selection, and possibly a booster piston (if needed).

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

[erwos 12]

This thread needs to be stickied, big time. Extremely informative, and much more useful than the usual "shoot it until your arm falls off".

[Nailbomb 10,221]

This thread needs to be stickied, big time. Extremely informative, and much more useful than the usual "shoot it until your arm falls off".

You should be doing that anyway

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

This thread needs to be stickied, big time. Extremely informative, and much more useful than the usual "shoot it until your arm falls off".

You should be doing that anyway

Make it eat the cheap stuff and shoot it until your arm falls off.... for a lot cheaper

[Scott Kenny 144]

My plan for my future saiga is to run at least 50 rounds of high brass through it, then see if she wants to work on MalWart cheap stuff.

 

If it doesn't, send it to Cadiz/RAA and make sure it works right before I start dumping $$ into it.

 

Then get it polished/reprofiled, and add the autoplug so I don't have to mess with the gas system.

 

If it needs more done then it needs more done, but I am concentrating on reliability. It might end up with a red-dot on it for competition, but reliability is just as important in a racegun as it is in a SHTF gun.

 

This gun should run like a violated primate on any ammo, period. Yeah, I know it was designed to run on hi-test heavy loads. If a freaking Remington 1100 can run anything back to back without troubles, I should be able to make a Saiga do it.

[RABIDFOX50 6]

I purchased my S12 already converted by a local smith back in 09 (It's a RAA with three unobstructed ports). He is a good friend and a master smith with over 35 years experience. He had not broken the gun in so I used steps 1 and 3 to start off. I ran 400+ rounds of Remington slugger and 00 buck through it on setting 1 with zero issues (all 2 3/4" BTW). I used various mags to include AGP, Surefire and two Promag 12 drums, all ran 100%. After step 1 I broke the S12 down and polished the internals with my Dremel. Mine is not as shiny as Pauly's but it did smooth up all the rough spots and made a hell of an improvement. I also installed a reduced power hammer spring. Everything else is stock as for the internals. Due to work and family matters, I have not tested with low brass yet but plan on a trip to the range next week. Life always gets in the way of what I want to do, LOL. I also have a TAC47 auto plug enroute so I am going to test with and without the auto plug.

[lcswj 0]

I chose item 3 then item 1 in that order. I agree with the previous posts. Only things I add are a new gas plug is a must, I put a Gunfixer on mine and it made a huge difference. There are other good gas plugs, get one that suits u. If u don't, ur stuck shooting high brass (aka expensive) ammo. The other addition I include is the Tom Cole operating rod. When my factory rod broke, this rod was a God send. Literally twice the thickness made of hardened stainless steel, can't be beat. If u inadvertently shoot ur S12 on the wrong gas setting, ur op rod may very well end up in pieces. Mine did and cracked my carrier. Just got it running again and the op rod saved the day. Did a post on the whole experience, very educational. Dont know how to do a link to the post though. Just do a search on lcswj or cracked carrier.

[racolqui 19]

I broke a rib last week so haven't had a chance to run mine through the paces as I had planed before making any changes. I did remove the gas plug and it has three holes that seem to be angled toward the rear, about the size of a 1/8 drill bit, and not covered by the gas block. I fired one Remmington 7/8 ounce #6 birdshot 1390 fps ( can;t really shoot much here or a LEO will show up unhappy) it ejected and reloaded fine on setting one. My question now is could it possiably be over gassed and should I change to the V-plug I already purchased? I would like some adviced from you more experianced guys.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Palidin

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I broke a rib last week so haven't had a chance to run mine through the paces as I had planed before making any changes. I did remove the gas plug and it has three holes that seem to be angled toward the rear, about the size of a 1/8 drill bit, and not covered by the gas block. I fired one Remmington 7/8 ounce #6 birdshot 1390 fps ( can;t really shoot much here or a LEO will show up unhappy) it ejected and reloaded fine on setting one. My question now is could it possiably be over gassed and should I change to the V-plug I already purchased? I would like some adviced from you more experianced guys.

Has the weapon been modified? (ports)