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Dorky_D

Russian FMJ Vs. JHP Vs. JSP

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I am looking at buying some bulk ammo. I keep watching who has the best deal on Wolf, Tula, Bear and no no-name (probably Tula). I will probably buy some shortly.

 

For those that don't know

FMJ - Full Metal Jacket

JHP - Jacketed Hollow Point

JSP - Jacketed Soft Point

 

 

From what I understand the most damaging is the soft point. This is harder to find and when you do find it, it is more expensive. I may get some, but it will probably be at a later date, and in a smaller quantity.

 

My main question is regarding the differences with FMJ and JHP. I have heard that with Russion ammo, the Jacket is a bi-metal jacket that is harder, since it usually has some steel in it vs. a copper jacket. From what I have gathered, because the jacket is harder, it tends to not expand as much as a straight copper jacket. If that is the case, do the Russian Hollow points pretty much act like FMJ rounds and not expand as much?

 

From my understanding the FMJ rounds really penetrate well, but HPs may not penetrate as well. I have heard that is less so with Russian ammo.

 

I would be interested in your thoughts. I am fairly new to shooting. I posted this in the .223 bucket because the ballistics are different than the 7.62, so I am wanting info on these. Thanks!

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http://www.weaponsworld.com/ammunition/rifle-ammunition/223-remington.html

 

MFS 62 grain Soft Point. Zinc Plated steel case. (Same as Silver Bear). Soft point is great for target, varmints, home defense, etc... $229 for 1000 rounds. Flat $9.99 for shipping and handling. Excellent ammo and excellent company. That price comes out to $4.80 per box of 20. Prices are going up. I'd order this very soon if you're interested. FYI. They have 55 grain FMJ, but it's the exact same price. They also have 500 rounds of the soft point for $129, but if you have the money, buy the 1000 rounds. It's $9.99 for S/H no matter HOW MUCH ammo.

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Thanks for the info. That is a great price. I had never heard of that.

I would still like an answer to my question, but that is really good to know about. I may have to pull the trigger on some of that!

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i have brown bear 124grain sp's. there was an article in a mag about people who did tests using bear fmj hp and sp. the softpoints were the most effective bullet to use. however i really find all the talk about this bullet or that bullet very funny. any bullet will kill. do some research on wwII and see how many people died from fmj bullets. fmjs will always be the cheapest bullet to buy. by the way i have fired wolf and brown bear out of my saiga 7.62 and both were great. brown bear is listed as being hotter then wolf.

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I would buy Russian ammo for target practice only. For fighting, stock up on XM193 or M855 (the former would be cheaper), and maybe some Hornady.

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Jim, what makes you say that? Accuracy? Reliability?

 

I've had a few reliability problems, but maybe I've just had bad luck. The accuracy is plenty good in my particular rifle. The problem is that the terminal performance is nothing to be excited about. I would not expect any fragmentation, and the HPs will penetrate most of the way through before they begin to do anything notable.

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So you are saying that the HPs and FMJ are fairly similar?

There is not a significant price difference on FMJ vs JHP, so that is a non issue. In truth I will spend most of it at the range. I might get some TAP or something for defense, but in smaller qty.

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Each weapon is different. Whether it's using steel case or brass case ammo, each rifle has it's own personality. My son was home from school for spring break last weekend. He went through 500 rounds of steel case russian .223. Some was Barnaul and some was tula. He didn't have one misfire, jam, or feeding issue. And all of it hit on target perfectly. I would have no problem using steel case MFS or Silver Bear Soft Point ammo for home defense. I've shot enough bear, tula, MFS, barnaul, and wolf in both my Saiga .223 and my S&W M&P15 AR15. I would feel just as comfortable shooting it as I do PMC, SS109 (M855), and other brass case ammo.

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Each weapon is different. Whether it's using steel case or brass case ammo, each rifle has it's own personality. My son was home from school for spring break last weekend. He went through 500 rounds of steel case russian .223. Some was Barnaul and some was tula. He didn't have one misfire, jam, or feeding issue. And all of it hit on target perfectly. I would have no problem using steel case MFS or Silver Bear Soft Point ammo for home defense. I've shot enough bear, tula, MFS, barnaul, and wolf in both my Saiga .223 and my S&W M&P15 AR15. I would feel just as comfortable shooting it as I do PMC, SS109 (M855), and other brass case ammo.

 

My issues were failures to fire.

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Each weapon is different. Whether it's using steel case or brass case ammo, each rifle has it's own personality. My son was home from school for spring break last weekend. He went through 500 rounds of steel case russian .223. Some was Barnaul and some was tula. He didn't have one misfire, jam, or feeding issue. And all of it hit on target perfectly. I would have no problem using steel case MFS or Silver Bear Soft Point ammo for home defense. I've shot enough bear, tula, MFS, barnaul, and wolf in both my Saiga .223 and my S&W M&P15 AR15. I would feel just as comfortable shooting it as I do PMC, SS109 (M855), and other brass case ammo.

 

My issues were failures to fire.

And like I said, I've gone through thousands of rounds of steel case ammo, and I haven't had any problems.

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It makes sense to use the best terminal ammo you have in the case of home defense. Aside from that, after a few thousand rounds of Silver Bear 223, I never had a problem with it not going boom. I think concern about Russian 223 stems from problems the AR folks have. My S-223 loves it and gives me 2-2.5 moa even with a hot barrel.

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I have no concern with it...at least not yet. i put 100 rounds of Brown Bear through my rifle and they all went bang. I had 2 that did not go the first time, but I think it was my gun and not the ammo, because it fired just fine the 2nd time. I do not think the piston went back all the way. I am not sure why.

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I have no concern with it...at least not yet. i put 100 rounds of Brown Bear through my rifle and they all went bang. I had 2 that did not go the first time, but I think it was my gun and not the ammo, because it fired just fine the 2nd time. I do not think the piston went back all the way. I am not sure why.

 

2% failure rate...not good.

 

If the piston didn't go back all the way, it could be because the round was underpowered (lacking a full powder charge). This is just the kind of reliability problem that gives me pause about this kind of ammo.

Edited by Jim Digriz

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Keep in mind these were the first 100 rounds through the gun. At this point I would call it a break in issue before I would blame the ammo, especiall since a PMC round did the exact same thing.

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Keep in mind these were the first 100 rounds through the gun. At this point I would call it a break in issue before I would blame the ammo, especiall since a PMC round did the exact same thing.

Yea; I don't even think WHAT the problem is, until I've shot about 1000 rounds through a semi-auto rifle. I've had my M&P15 AR for just over 3 months now. But it on Christmas eve. I've put about 1500 rounds through it. 90% russian steel case. Then again; an M&P15 is known for shooting rocks if you can fit it in the chamber. It will shoot anything. I've had this particular saiga .223 for about a year and a half. I had a couple of feeding issues when it was new, but now it shoots flawlessly with any ammo. Of course, there are those that take a brand new rifle and if they have any feeding, firing, ejecting, etc... issues; and automatically determine it must be the ammo. They won't admit that maybe,,,, just maybe,,,, their rifle is at fault. Most times, just needs a little break in wear.

 

The biggest issue with steel case ammo, is the shooter. YUP, it's ain't the ammo. People refuse to realize that steel doesn't expand as well or as fast as brass. Therefor, you get some residue/powder blow back into the chamber around the sides where the case fits in. After a while; if you don't clean the rifle; you can get cases that get stuck in there after a shot and the extractor isn't able to grab out the spent case. AK's are a little more tolerant, because they are naturally a looser weapon all around. "Hence, the reason they will shoot under almost any condition". It's mainly the AR owners who blame steel case ammo as being bad; when in fact, it's that they don't clean their gun often enough. Some even brag about shooting 500-1000 rounds and not cleaning their weapon. They think they should be able to do this with steel case also. They're wrong, but they don't want to hear it, so I just let them believe what they want.

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Keep in mind these were the first 100 rounds through the gun. At this point I would call it a break in issue before I would blame the ammo, especiall since a PMC round did the exact same thing.

 

I wouldn't blame the ammo quite yet, but I suspect it is at fault. I've had three failures to fire, and one of them was definitely a defective round. The primer was misshapen, but I figured it might fire anyhow.

 

Never have I had even a single failure to fire with 5.45 7N6 in thousands of rounds. I had a Glock that had two failures in the very first magazine, but never after that. christcorp's 1000 round break in period seems excessive to me. I figure about 200 rounds max for an AK.

 

In any event, ANY failures bug me. Keep your eyes open and observe carefully when you have a problem, so as to get to the bottom of the issue.

 

By the way, was the PMC round SS109? Was it also a failure to fire? What were the symptoms there?

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The PMC was the bronze cheap stuff. I am not sure what the number was.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=106834

I can't tell you what happened on the first one, since it was a suprise. The 2nd and 3rd I noticed because I was trying to remember to keep the trigger pulled, and then letting go to reset the trigger. I released the trigger and it did not go forward as much as it should. It did not feel right. I pulled out the round and the primer was slighly dented, but not as much as some of the spent rounds were.

I took out the buffer I had in there, and did not have any other issues, but I only fired about 20 or so more, so I am not sure if that fixed it.

The ammo/mags fed fine, it appears to me that the bolt/carrier did not go back far enough to set the hammer under the hook.

If you have ideas, I am all ears. I am not overly concerned about it just yet, but I will be if it happens a lot more. I was shooting Brown Bear 55gr 1st and about 10 rounds of PMC.

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i went to the range yesterday. It happened again! I figured out what it was though. It was not the ammo! It was my gun. The right leg of the main spring was jumping more center, and not allowing the trigger to spring forward and re-set.

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