P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) let me start off by saying im not bashing chaos and have no doubt cameron has tested and retested his products before releasing them . so my question is what makes my s12 and a couple others ive read about diffrent than all the other satisfied chaos customers ? i have a factory four port that wouldnt cycle low brass fedrals out of the box , i installed css low brass reliability kit along with a standard converstion ,i polished the bolt carrier ,carrier rails ,polished the hammer and profiled the feed ramp. my gun then cycled about 95% . so i then scribe marked the gas block removed it and slightly opened up the ports a bit . after that i was cycling great , rarely ever a malfunction , and when there was it was a failure to feed . after installing my chaos titan , i stepped outside for a test run ,and it was fte time and time again, i had already read post on just this issue but i was still suprised that it was happening to me with such a low percentage of this occurence . so i removed my eotech , still fte , i remembered a post by cameron saying in the early extended quad there were three reported cases of the spent casing bouncing off the rail due to varying angles of ejection , and you could correct this by grinding a little off the rail once you could identify the poi on the rail. so at this point i decided to try it with the rear part of the rail folded up , still fte. i then removed the upper rail and cycled round after round probly 20 or so no problems , reinstalled the upper and fte , fte . my gas block is slighty canted , but its canted away from the rail on the external port side of the gas block. i can see on the inside of the top rail where the gas exhausting out of that port has burnt a significant mark maybe a 1/4 " behind the forward screw that connects the lower and upper, but there appears to be what i think should be plenty of clearance between the gas block and the rail . now im talking without measureing but probly at least a 1/8 to 3/16. ive read about binding up the gas tube and watched the videos of the platform flexing in slow motion , but with this design it doesnt seem like this could be a factor . which leaves me to believe that for some reason the external port on mine must ethier be mislocated or the port angle is different from most , ive never held another s12 other than mine to base this theory off of , but its the best i can come up with , on a previous post dealing with the same issue a member drilled a hole through his quad to give the gas a better escape , but had no luck , just thinking out loud but would the distance between the gas block and the rail give the gas room to bind up before it utilized the custom hole in the rail, if so maybe it just needs a larger hole. i was thinking of pluging the existing port and redrilling one at about the 7 or 8 oclock potistion where the gas tube meets the gas block , angleing it down at about a 45 degree angle back towards the reciever . does anyone see any problems with this that i am missing . am i correct in thinking all this port does is vent the area behind the puck so it doesnt have any compression ? thanks in advance for any advice !! Edited April 18, 2011 by J lang Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 i should also add that the holes ive seen drilled threw the quad by other members were drilled threw the upper at what looked like a straight shot to the port on the gb , the existing port on my gb is angled down to where if you stuck a drill bit in it , it would come out in the middle of the side rail . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Try it with the factory puck. See if anything changes. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 will do pauly first thing tomarrow morning Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Try it with the factory puck. See if anything changes. Well I tried th factory puck and it worked , I fired 15 with no fte , then reinserted my twister puck , and it still worked , the only way I've been able to recreate the fte is by replacing my eotech above the ejection port . But this was not my experience the day before when I had fte even with the rear half of the upper folded up ! I also tried it with the utg rail covers on and off , with no difference . I just don't know , maybe I had a piece off crap jammed somewhere and it broke loose , I never removed the lower rail , just the upper , I can't figure out what the problem was, I guess I'll just be happy for now to have a cycling weapon again ! We do alot of shooting around here so I'm sure if it's gonna revert back to it's old ways I'll find out soon . I just stepped out and fired another 5 before applying this post , no fte,s ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Factory parts = good 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Next time it happens, try cleaning the gas block & puck & re-test. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Next time it happens, try cleaning the gas block & puck & re-test. I understand you're post , and probly should have included in my original post that I had cleaned the the puck , gas block and plug immediately before installing my rail . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
clifton 354 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Use some small washers on the rail and dont over crank the thing down, it needs to be tight but not too tight. This should fix it. When you are on the verg of cycling already any additional drag or reduced function, or harmonics of the weapon might put you back to where you started. its not that the Chaos rail is not performing, its that your gun was on the edge of reliability already. The more things you add to it the more your system is going to work and you are already at a negative with the amount of gas you need. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 I would first get that gas block straighten out, I believe your top rail is acting as a stiffing bar every time you tighten it down, so if your gas block is not 90 deg. it's causing a slight bind, it doesn't take much for one thing to effect another. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P lang 51 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Use some small washers on the rail and dont over crank the thing down, it needs to be tight but not too tight. This should fix it. When you are on the verg of cycling already any additional drag or reduced function, or harmonics of the weapon might put you back to where you started. its not that the Chaos rail is not performing, its that your gun was on the edge of reliability already. The more things you add to it the more your system is going to work and you are already at a negative with the amount of gas you need. I would first get that gas block straighten out, I believe your top rail is acting as a stiffing bar every time you tighten it down, so if your gas block is not 90 deg. it's causing a slight bind, it doesn't take much for one thing to effect another. I agree over tightening could have been the issue , the first time I installed it I did use blue loctite and did crank it down pretty good , I can't see how this design could be anymore free floating but think it makes sense to assume that I must have disrupted the barrel harmonics , being that the only thing I have changed is the torque on the upper to lower bolts , leavig them loose the second time I installed anticipating removing them again . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G-30 8 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I still have not gotten mine to work either, I drilled a vent hole through the quad rail and it did not make a difference. I did notice the top rail making contact in the area of the rear sight so I have removed some material from inside of the top rail, I have not gotten out to test it to see if this will make any difference. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I really dont understand folks thoughts on the vent hole. IMO that vent hole is only there so that any heavy crud that gets past the puck that would normally collect in front of the puck can get blown out of that hole. Lighter crud and most of the gas that gets past the plug goes down the gas tube. When I built a new gas block for my gun I ran it without a vent hole at first, guess what? It ran fine but I was getting some carbon build up at the bottom of the puck. Drilled a hole and now it doesn't do it anymore. Im almost considering drilling another one on the other side to see if I can keep even more crud out of the receiver. The gas that makes it past the puck has absolutely no problem escaping down the gas tube. Didnt mean to get off topic but I hate to see folks drilling holes in their new rails. If the rail is causing your gun to FTE then most likely it was on the ragged edge of not running to begin with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I really dont understand folks thoughts on the vent hole. IMO that vent hole is only there so that any heavy crud that gets past the puck that would normally collect in front of the puck can get blown out of that hole. Lighter crud and most of the gas that gets past the plug goes down the gas tube. When I built a new gas block for my gun I ran it without a vent hole at first, guess what? It ran fine but I was getting some carbon build up at the bottom of the puck. Drilled a hole and now it doesn't do it anymore. Im almost considering drilling another one on the other side to see if I can keep even more crud out of the receiver. The gas that makes it past the puck has absolutely no problem escaping down the gas tube. Didnt mean to get off topic but I hate to see folks drilling holes in their new rails. If the rail is causing your gun to FTE then most likely it was on the ragged edge of not running to begin with. Huh? I have an unobstructed vent and it doesn't blow crud out of it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G-30 8 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I really dont understand folks thoughts on the vent hole. IMO that vent hole is only there so that any heavy crud that gets past the puck that would normally collect in front of the puck can get blown out of that hole. Lighter crud and most of the gas that gets past the plug goes down the gas tube. When I built a new gas block for my gun I ran it without a vent hole at first, guess what? It ran fine but I was getting some carbon build up at the bottom of the puck. Drilled a hole and now it doesn't do it anymore. Im almost considering drilling another one on the other side to see if I can keep even more crud out of the receiver. The gas that makes it past the puck has absolutely no problem escaping down the gas tube. Didnt mean to get off topic but I hate to see folks drilling holes in their new rails. If the rail is causing your gun to FTE then most likely it was on the ragged edge of not running to begin with. Mine is a 4 port gun that will run Fed bulk pack 100% on setting 2 without the rail and will shoot at the most two or three rounds between FTEs with the top rail on. I am still trying to figure out why Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Same here, I have a 3 port s12 that ran almost flawless with Federal bulk prior to adding the top rail.. Before.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPKiwHtgkfs After.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuSmkjjkssM I also drilled a hole through the side of my top rail.. not sure if it worked or not as I haven't been able to shoot since.. and because I was unable to shoot I also opened up the gas block hole and ports to 3/32.. so now it will be impossible to tell if the hole made any difference.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 so now it will be impossible to tell if the hole made any difference.. It would be easy to check. Remove the top rail and plug the vent hole and shoot it. I would have done that before drilling. Huh? I have an unobstructed vent and it doesn't blow crud out of it.. It starts out as a fine powder. If left to collect it will compress together and form clumps inside the gun. When I had my old gas block there would be a good size area on the side of my rail covered in it. With my new gas block it blows it down the side of the gas tube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 9, 2013 Report Share Posted June 9, 2013 (edited) I have been having FTEs like crazy with my chaos extended rail. Like at least every other shot even with slugs and other high brass. I tried many different parts (gas plug, puck, spring, etc.) and even had my ports drilled out by a reputable Saiga gunsmith in my area. I tried reverting back to factory parts (with the quad rail still on) Nothing fixed my FTEs until I tried taking off my Chaos extended rail! With it off, everything suddenly cycled like a dream including the cheap walmart bulk ammo. Would drilling a hole in the side of the quadrail so gas overflow port has more space make a difference? Has anyone else had issues with a Chaos rail they were able to fix? Edited June 9, 2013 by Turbo.M777 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobabuee 29 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I have been having FTEs like crazy with my chaos extended rail. Like at least every other shot even with slugs and other high brass. I tried many different parts (gas plug, puck, spring, etc.) and even had my ports drilled out by a reputable Saiga gunsmith in my area. I tried reverting back to factory parts (with the quad rail still on) Nothing fixed my FTEs until I tried taking off my Chaos extended rail! With it off, everything suddenly cycled like a dream including the cheap walmart bulk ammo. Would drilling a hole in the side of the quadrail so gas overflow port has more space make a difference? Has anyone else had issues with a Chaos rail they were able to fix? hum......iam having same problem with my top rail haven't tried shooting with rail off though, but I will try it if it does fire wally ammo then this drilling this open should fix it.... I would think? my gun is ported professionally too,I have auto plug in from start of all this first time out failed to cycle single shots then second time out I changed poished and reprofiled bolt,carrier,trigger got couple cycles out. then changed 1.stock to css puck got better.... 2.recoil spring way better.... i say 8 out of 10 only 2 fte's "but when i got home i found that my chaos rail bolts were all lose." and it was firing good hum.... will post my results this week I am now felling very hopeful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 10, 2013 Report Share Posted June 10, 2013 I went ahead and drilled a hole through my top rail where the vent is. I'll take it out shooting tomorrow and see if that fixes the problem. I'll post results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 11, 2013 Report Share Posted June 11, 2013 So here's what I drilled out. When shooting, it seemed that it did allow my S12 to cycle significantly better. I'm still getting around one FTE about every 10 shots now. Better than every other shot though. Ugh. Wheres John Browning when you need him? I want this thing to go at least 5000 rounds without a failure! Is that so much to ask? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobabuee 29 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 So here's what I drilled out. When shooting, it seemed that it did allow my S12 to cycle significantly better. I'm still getting around one FTE about every 10 shots now. Better than every other shot though. Ugh. Wheres John Browning when you need him? I want this thing to go at least 5000 rounds without a failure! Is that so much to ask? did you play with your auto plug after drilling the rail? how far is in is set screw for your auto plug mine is almost bottomed out. have you done any polishing or reprofiling ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 I have been having FTEs like crazy with my chaos extended rail. Like at least every other shot even with slugs and other high brass. I tried many different parts (gas plug, puck, spring, etc.) and even had my ports drilled out by a reputable Saiga gunsmith in my area. I tried reverting back to factory parts (with the quad rail still on) Nothing fixed my FTEs until I tried taking off my Chaos extended rail! With it off, everything suddenly cycled like a dream including the cheap walmart bulk ammo. Would drilling a hole in the side of the quadrail so gas overflow port has more space make a difference? Has anyone else had issues with a Chaos rail they were able to fix? If taking it off fixes it, then leaving it off would permanently fix it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) So here's what I drilled out. When shooting, it seemed that it did allow my S12 to cycle significantly better. I'm still getting around one FTE about every 10 shots now. Better than every other shot though. Ugh. Wheres John Browning when you need him? I want this thing to go at least 5000 rounds without a failure! Is that so much to ask? did you play with your auto plug after drilling the rail? how far is in is set screw for your auto plug mine is almost bottomed out. have you done any polishing or reprofiling ? I just looked at my auto plug again, after shooting, and noticed the adjustment screw has unscrewed itself about a full turn. I didn't notice at the range. Is that a common issue with the autoplug? I guess its back to the range. again. I'll keep an eye on the plug, and if thats the issue keeping me from the bliss of a reliable saiga, I'll have to loctite it in its sweet spot. I have been having FTEs like crazy with my chaos extended rail. Like at least every other shot even with slugs and other high brass. I tried many different parts (gas plug, puck, spring, etc.) and even had my ports drilled out by a reputable Saiga gunsmith in my area. I tried reverting back to factory parts (with the quad rail still on) Nothing fixed my FTEs until I tried taking off my Chaos extended rail! With it off, everything suddenly cycled like a dream including the cheap walmart bulk ammo. Would drilling a hole in the side of the quadrail so gas overflow port has more space make a difference? Has anyone else had issues with a Chaos rail they were able to fix? If taking it off fixes it, then leaving it off would permanently fix it True, I could go back to the factory handguard, but its fugly. I like having a rail system, and Chaos makes the sexiest one. I'd like to keep it if I can make it work. Edited June 12, 2013 by Turbo.M777 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bobabuee 29 Posted June 12, 2013 Report Share Posted June 12, 2013 find the sweet spot then yep clean both parts very good with brake clean and locttite let it dry for at least 12 hrs then shoot it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 13, 2013 Report Share Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) I went and shot my Saiga again today, and there is no doubt at all now that the upper half of the Chaos quadrail is the cause of my constant FTEs. My auto gas plug has been on the same setting, and will fire a 20 round drum of winchester universal (cheap walmart ammo) flawlessly with no handguard at all. It also fires without any problems when I have only the bottom half of my extended rail, (the tri-rail) mounted. As soon as I mount the top half, I have FTEs again, with the cheap stuff as well as the buckshot and slugs I was using. I drilled out a hole for the vent as seen in my previous post, (which seems wouldn't do much anyway) and today when I was shooting I made sure the upper rail had absolutely no contact with anything except the bottom rail. I ground away a little bit at a couple areas that looked close to contact to other parts. Still didn't make a difference. Seems strange since its pretty much floating over everything on the upper half. Doesn't make sense to me, but it is what it is. I went back and forth with it on and off, and my results were extremely consistent. Any other ideas before I trash it and buy a CSS tri rail instead? Edited June 13, 2013 by Turbo.M777 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sccritterkiller 473 Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I have the same issue with my titian. My gun ran everything including Winchester universal before....FTE on every low brass round last time out, didn't try any regular ammo. Didn't have time to pull the rail off and try it..but it is the only change I have made. I think it's a lot to do with what TAC 47 said above. I am all stock parts and some minor profiling/polishing, haven't touched the ports....I'm going to stew on for a few days....leaning toward opening up the ports and maybe a professional profile job. I love the rail not giving it up so some more tuning required, which is my favorite part! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I don't think its my Autoplug, as I've had the issue before I got it. It runs perfectly fine too, just not with the upper rail mounted. I've screwed the autoplug down pretty far with the rail on too, but it doesn't compensate enough for whatever the rail is doing. I've gotten a lot of upgraded parts to try to make it work with the rail including CSS puck, CSS recoil spring, JTE performance guide rod, I've opened up the ports, and I've done some polishing too. My saiga ran the cheap stuff perfectly even when everything was factory. Even with the performance boosters I've added since I got the rail, It just doesn't make up for whatever problem the rail is causing. At least on these forums, It seems like its a pretty uncommon occurence for people to have issues with a Chaos rail. Kind of strange. I'll call Chaos tomorrow (monday) and see if they have any suggestions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo.M777 11 Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 Called Chaos tech support and talked to Cameron. He quickly suggested that my gas block was slightly twisted and I can fix the problem by getting 4 crush washers to put under the screws for my rail and that should fix it. I'll try it and let you all know what happens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sccritterkiller 473 Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Called Chaos tech support and talked to Cameron. He quickly suggested that my gas block was slightly twisted and I can fix the problem by getting 4 crush washers to put under the screws for my rail and that should fix it. I'll try it and let you all know what happens. If it works post some pics please! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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