Was the Saiga trigger linkage designed by MK himself?

[dae.edorian 12]

Help me settle a dispute. I say that the general shoddiness of the Saiga trigger linkage is proof enough that it must have been designed by someone other than Kalashnikov himself. My opponent in this debate maintains that Kalashnikov must have designed it.

 

Please share any facts/opinions/reasoning that might settle our debate.

[datrowl 111]

The NEED to bypass import restrictions to get the guns to market quickly ( MK had to have known what financial dire straights Izhmash factory was in ) will make a man do things he wouldn't normally consider. On top of this, the manor in which the whole conversion took place, and the ease in which its reversed leads me to believe he designed it in haste, and desperation, with a fair knowledge that it could and indeed would be reversed once the import process was finalised by the end user...

 

The man is brilliant, give him credit for haveing enough smarts to bypass the laws and still end up with a weapon that was so bad it needed to be converted, but so good after conversion that it would sell like hotcakes...

 

Yea, I believe it was him, and I believe he knew it was a short term solution to a long term cash machine.

 

Waylon

[dae.edorian 12]

 

Yea, I believe it was him, and I believe he knew it was a short term solution to a long term cash machine.

 

Waylon

 

Fair enough, it just seems like something that could have just as easily been relegated to a lower level designer. I mean, I wouldn't even bet that MK acted in a CEO role the way you seem to perceive. My understanding is that the Saiga was actually designed in the 70s when Izhmash was just another property of the USSR and had no such fiscal concerns.

 

I actually much prefer to think of him as an inventor than as an entrepreneur.

Edited April 30, 2011 by dae.edorian

[datrowl 111]

Perhaps more inventor than entrepreneur.. but he's worked at that factory most of his life, in many ways he's responsible for its existance, and he's still there, perhaps in some dark back room with his drafting table ploting and specing some new design.

 

After that many years doing anything you have that much history in and responsibality for it has to be a bit like " comeing home " everytime you walk in the door. That factory is where he designs and builds, and if it goes ka-put, alot of his life goes ka-put as well... I'll never believe he dosen't at least hold an honerary seat on the board, and thus would have known about the financial diffaculties the company faced after the decline of mother russia and the overseas knockoffs being hammered out in every 3rd world warehouse.. companies don't magicly go bankrupt overnight, its usually a slow decline that reaches a point of being terminal.

 

All these things still lead me to believe what WE know as a Saiga, with the modified linkage was an attempt to increase market share. Get the guns in consumers hands and generate cash flow. What we ended up with is a weapon that bypasses import laws, but is easily switched back to its base form. I don't think this was by accident as I don't believe anyone would look at a base unconverted Saiga and consider it a viable firearm for hunting or " sporting " at its price point in the US market vrs the other fine rifles we already had access to. Lets face it, the Saiga was MADE to be converted, and made to be converted easily.

 

I believe HE understood this, and I believe he designed the factory conversion with this in mmind. Get the guns to the people and they will do the rest, make it easy for them and you'll move hundreds of thousands of units... which is exactly what has happoned.

 

meh, I dunno... just my thoughts

 

Waylon

[dae.edorian 12]

Sure, sure. My point is just that I don't believe that market concerns were an impetus for the linkage design in the 70s.

 

They were almost certainly the motivation for the design's reemergence in the 90s, but that was after the fact, and I tend to doubt that MK was responsible for the company's profitability at that point regardless.

Edited April 30, 2011 by dae.edorian

[datrowl 111]

aye, but you asked specifically about the linkage, which only exists on the new US import version, the design that appeared in the 70s had no linkage, it used the profile WE convert ( or restore ) it BACK to...

 

the whole linkage thing, is a US import restriction thing, on new guns being pushed into the US to generate cashflow...

 

without the NEED to generate market share, the linkage itself wouldnt exist... who else is gonna buy these? most militaries now days are not buying new AKs in bulk... no where else in the world can you walk into any one of 5 stores in your home town and buy a gun from the same building that sells you groceries.... we as US consumers, private citizens likely buy more guns per year than the rest of the world total INCLUDEING militaries. If your in the gun buisness, your selling to Americans... or your retrofitting your presses to make desk lamps.

[dae.edorian 12]

Ah, I didn't realize that the original "Saiga" didn't have the linkage. So, that was ostensibly designed in the 90s then? In that case, I'm sure that the justification for it was purely to infiltrate the US civilian market, as you say.

 

I still question if MK was personally responsible for its specifications, especially that late in the game.

Edited April 30, 2011 by dae.edorian

[dae.edorian 12]

Did some more googling and came up with this thread. From there I found the name "Gennady Nikonov" which led me to this article.

 

I'd say the fact that MK wasn't even responsible for the original AK shotgun concept is pretty strong evidence that the linkage was likely not his design.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Did some more googling and came up with this thread. From there I found the name "Gennady Nikonov" which led me to this article.

 

I'd say the fact that MK wasn't even responsible for the original AK shotgun concept is pretty strong evidence that the linkage was likely not his design.

 

 

MK designed the original AK. From what I understand, he sold the design and never got anywhere close to what he could've gotten for it.

 

I don't know for sure, but I HIGHLY doubt that MK designed the S-12 much less the fucked up "sporter" trigger linkage system.

 

For a man who said, "I'll shake the hand of any man who makes a better assault rifle than mine" that would show that he had far more pride than what the bastardized "sporter" S-12 became...

[dae.edorian 12]

Well spoken. Those are my sentiments exactly.

[beefcakeb99 572]

aye, but you asked specifically about the linkage, which only exists on the new US import version, the design that appeared in the 70s had no linkage, it used the profile WE convert ( or restore ) it BACK to...

 

the whole linkage thing, is a US import restriction thing, on new guns being pushed into the US to generate cashflow...

 

without the NEED to generate market share, the linkage itself wouldnt exist... who else is gonna buy these? most militaries now days are not buying new AKs in bulk... no where else in the world can you walk into any one of 5 stores in your home town and buy a gun from the same building that sells you groceries.... we as US consumers, private citizens likely buy more guns per year than the rest of the world total INCLUDEING militaries. If your in the gun buisness, your selling to Americans... or your retrofitting your presses to make desk lamps.

actually, the russians do have sporter versions with the linkage. The gun is used for hunting in sporter config in russia too.

 

Mikhail did not sell the design for the AK, in Russia you do things for the country, not for the money. At least back then.

[beefcakeb99 572]

His son however was on the Bizon design team.

[dae.edorian 12]

Mikhail did not sell the design for the AK, in Russia you do things for the country, not for the money. At least back then.

 

I considered pointing that out, but I liked what the man said besides that, so I refrained.

[beefcakeb99 572]

Mikhail did not sell the design for the AK, in Russia you do things for the country, not for the money. At least back then.

 

I considered pointing that out, but I liked what the man said besides that, so I refrained.

Also worth noting, the S12 is in use by certain aspects of their military, but is also available for civilian use. I am not so sure that Mikhail, as a military man has designed anything for civilian use.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

aye, but you asked specifically about the linkage, which only exists on the new US import version, the design that appeared in the 70s had no linkage, it used the profile WE convert ( or restore ) it BACK to...

 

the whole linkage thing, is a US import restriction thing, on new guns being pushed into the US to generate cashflow...

 

without the NEED to generate market share, the linkage itself wouldnt exist... who else is gonna buy these? most militaries now days are not buying new AKs in bulk... no where else in the world can you walk into any one of 5 stores in your home town and buy a gun from the same building that sells you groceries.... we as US consumers, private citizens likely buy more guns per year than the rest of the world total INCLUDEING militaries. If your in the gun buisness, your selling to Americans... or your retrofitting your presses to make desk lamps.

actually, the russians do have sporter versions with the linkage. The gun is used for hunting in sporter config in russia too.

 

Mikhail did not sell the design for the AK, in Russia you do things for the country, not for the money. At least back then.

 

That's kinda what I was getting at, sell was a bad way to say it, how 'bout gave?

[dae.edorian 12]

 

That's kinda what I was getting at, sell was a bad way to say it, how 'bout gave?

 

He was pretty fundamentally ripped off from a capitalist perspective... I doubt that he views it that way, though. His perspective is likely not an overly capitalist perspective.

[beefcakeb99 572]

He actually despises the new way and what it has done to the motherland. He prefers the old way of communism.

He didn't lose the design, or give it away. He designed it with the intent for arming soldiers. When he was a tank crew and commander there was a major lack of effective small arms in circulation. Even when they had a machine gun in use it was rarely seen. He was puzzled as to why. So when he was hurt he wanted to help out his country. Its sole purpose was to be designed for the motherland.

[dae.edorian 12]

That sounds about right.

[L5K 162]

We also forget that the Soviets also went to other countries and taught them how to build the rifles, built machines for them, set up factories and basically handed out for free all the means of production to anyone who wanted to fight the capitalists. Then suddenly when the walls fell on them, they complain about their design being copied? Hah.

[datrowl 111]

Was not aware of the Russian version with the linkage in place, I had always been told the linkage was only used to " convert " US import guns, I stand corrected. Wonder if they were selling the linked version in Russia prior to US import, or if it was more of a " well, we do have these rigged as hunting rifles now, wanna see if they sell locally?" thing.

 

hummm

 

Waylon

[timy 1,185]

He was a doddering old fool by that point, so I say no, he had no part in the design.

 

But hey, I'm a doddering old fool, so what do I know?

[beefcakeb99 572]

a doddering old fool? I think not. He has out lived almost all of his competition and endured many hardships along the way. He is still a man with insight into design, politics, and manufacturing processes. As well as a tinkerer and inventor. He speaks every now and then, and what I see and hear is far from a doddering old fool.