Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ODGreenThumb

Extreme keyholing on new 5.45

Recommended Posts

Have you measured the barrel yet?

 

The bullet test doesn't really mean much, but the barrel it should be .214, all the 5.45's I've checked are .214. If it's keyholing that bad it sounds like the bore is much larger than that, maybe .218 or greater. You get can go/no go gauges to test it out. If it were me I'd rather know what the barrel specs are for sure and prove that part one way or the other.

 

 

 

Z

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if two other guns shot the same ammo and didn't keyhole isn't it pretty much narrowed down to the barrel. I mean there are not many components that would cause a keyhole to begin with. right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is *possible* that the problem is the ammo. To use an example I know, the 62-grain 5.56 ammo used in the M16A2 and SAW will not stabilize in M16A1s. The A1s have a 1 in 12" twist, while the A2s and SAW have a 1 in 7 twist. You'd have to slug the bore and figure out the twist rate to make sure, since other people have shot that ammo in their guns without keyholing.

 

Good Luck, and keep us posted!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will put my money on bad ammo.

 

As far as anything being canted... that has no bearing on a bullet keyholing... once the bullet is in the chamber... the chamber and barrel are all the same piece of steel. It does not matter how its hooked to the receiver... accuracy might be off... one direction or another... but it would still group shots in the same spot regardless.

 

If the bore is perfect and it is the correct SIZE... it will shoot properly with a proper weight bullet. again... I think your ammo is in question.

 

 

:smoke:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to hear about anyone else having issues with 7n6 ammo as this is all I will probably shoot out of my saiga... I would be so pissed if I dropped $160 on a case of ammo that key holed that bad.

 

7N6 has been 100% reliable for me and never keyholes. Very accurate too. It's high quality stuff.

 

Did the OP state whether any of his 7N6 had been tried in another rifle? My guess is that the rifle is defective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, have you taken a look at your twist rate? Maybe you ended up with a 1:16" twist meant for a .22LR or something bizzare like that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, have you taken a look at your twist rate? Maybe you ended up with a 1:16" twist meant for a .22LR or something bizzare like that?

 

I'm not sure how to check the twist rate, can you help me out? My new ammo is out for delivery so I'll post an update tonight or tomorrow, weather depending.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you measured the barrel yet?

 

The bullet test doesn't really mean much, but the barrel it should be .214, all the 5.45's I've checked are .214. If it's keyholing that bad it sounds like the bore is much larger than that, maybe .218 or greater. You get can go/no go gauges to test it out. If it were me I'd rather know what the barrel specs are for sure and prove that part one way or the other.

 

 

 

Z

 

Is there a way to measure the barrel without calipers or gauge. My local shops don't carry anything 5.45x39 related, period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to hear about anyone else having issues with 7n6 ammo as this is all I will probably shoot out of my saiga... I would be so pissed if I dropped $160 on a case of ammo that key holed that bad.

 

7N6 has been 100% reliable for me and never keyholes. Very accurate too. It's high quality stuff.

 

Did the OP state whether any of his 7N6 had been tried in another rifle? My guess is that the rifle is defective.

 

I just double checked with the other two guys shooting the same batch. They can't say for certain if they were getting keyholes or not. They weren't shooting paper.

 

I will put my money on bad ammo.

 

As far as anything being canted... that has no bearing on a bullet keyholing... once the bullet is in the chamber... the chamber and barrel are all the same piece of steel. It does not matter how its hooked to the receiver... accuracy might be off... one direction or another... but it would still group shots in the same spot regardless.

 

If the bore is perfect and it is the correct SIZE... it will shoot properly with a proper weight bullet. again... I think your ammo is in question.

 

 

:smoke:

 

I hope you're right. I'll find out tonight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have keyhole prob with tantal the barrel is a .2190 lands and .2230 grooves twist is close to 1 in 8. 53gr bulgy is .2220 diam at 2930 fps the silver bear is 60gr .2215 diam at 2666 fps mil classic 70gr .2210 diam at 2514 fps the only round it shoots without keyhole is the bulgy the fastest and biggest diam. the 5.45 bullets seem to be all over the place when it comes to diam. and speed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To determine twist rate:

Put a cleaning rod with a patch or brush all the way into the barrel. Mark the rod at the end of the barrel to indicate the start of the length and the start of the rotation (i.e. mark 12:00). Pull the rod out, allowing the rifling to rotate the rod. When the rotation mark is back at 12:00 mark the cleaning rod for the end of the length. Measure the length you know that you have 1 twist in x number of inches.

 

use a very tight patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Is there a way to measure the barrel without calipers or gauge. My local shops don't carry anything 5.45x39 related, period.

 

The go/no go gauges are a tool shop kind of item not a gunstore item. The ones I have experience with are the Vermont ZZ pin gage, they come in a variety of sizes for about 4 bucks each. For example http://www.amazon.com/Vermont-Gage-Steel-Tolerance-inches/dp/B0006JC8L4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1306437310&sr=1-4

 

You could also take a lead sinker that's close to the bore size and push it through, then mic the lands and grooves to know exactly what your barrel specs are. I did this when I tried out some handloading a few years ago.

 

 

Z

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there a way to measure the barrel without calipers or gauge. My local shops don't carry anything 5.45x39 related, period.

 

The go/no go gauges are a tool shop kind of item not a gunstore item. The ones I have experience with are the Vermont ZZ pin gage, they come in a variety of sizes for about 4 bucks each. For example http://www.amazon.co...06437310&sr=1-4

 

You could also take a lead sinker that's close to the bore size and push it through, then mic the lands and grooves to know exactly what your barrel specs are. I did this when I tried out some handloading a few years ago.

 

 

Z

 

Oh, got ya. I'll be stopping by the hardware store on the way home. Thanks for the assistance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the winner is............................... not me. It's not the ammo. Waiting on a call back from RAA009.gif

 

All shots from just under 10 yards. Wolf 60 grain on top. Two three round groups of silver bear 60 gr. Different batch of surplus on bottom. The first silver bear rounds did not keyhole as bad as the wolf so I shot 3 more and all keyholed at 90 degrees. Thanks for all the advice and input fellows. Much appreciated. I'll keep you posted when I here back from Larry at RAA. Wish I had some calipers...

post-33433-0-40692100-1306450093_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! On the bright side that whould pack a nice smack if it hits someone.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you put in a bullet guide? If you are using a milsurp mag with no bullet guide it might be effecting the ammo somehow. I cant tell from the picture. If you were using the milsurp mag, try the original mag or try single loading and see what happens. If you want to check the bore diameter you can get special lead slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. It is easy to do. You will need a micrometer. You will also be able to tell if the barrel has tight spots which is what I suspect. Sometimes the plating gets uneven.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you put in a bullet guide? If you are using a milsurp mag with no bullet guide it might be effecting the ammo somehow. I cant tell from the picture. If you were using the milsurp mag, try the original mag or try single loading and see what happens. If you want to check the bore diameter you can get special lead slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. It is easy to do. You will need a micrometer. You will also be able to tell if the barrel has tight spots which is what I suspect. Sometimes the plating gets uneven.

Nope, not true in the least bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you put in a bullet guide? If you are using a milsurp mag with no bullet guide it might be effecting the ammo somehow. I cant tell from the picture. If you were using the milsurp mag, try the original mag or try single loading and see what happens. If you want to check the bore diameter you can get special lead slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. It is easy to do. You will need a micrometer. You will also be able to tell if the barrel has tight spots which is what I suspect. Sometimes the plating gets uneven.

 

only used factory 10 round. I don't want to spend anymore money testing it. She's sick and needs medical attention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow! On the bright side that whould pack a nice smack if it hits someone.

 

Yeah, Gunsmith told me coyotes like keyholers because they blow groundhogs into bight size pieces. BTW RAAC email addresses get returned to sender due to full mailbox. Me and patient bear are trying to ride this one out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If anybody has any pull or contact with RAAC and can help me out it would be greatly appreciated. I'm not the type of person who bitches because his steak is under cooked, or beer is warm, I just want the bastard to make circles in paper. Again, thanks for all your input.

 

Green

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can i ask you what serial # you got? i just received a couple of 5.45x39's and was gonna put 2 away, and blast one. now im thinking i should go test them all.

Edited by MrKrinker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you put in a bullet guide? If you are using a milsurp mag with no bullet guide it might be effecting the ammo somehow. I cant tell from the picture. If you were using the milsurp mag, try the original mag or try single loading and see what happens. If you want to check the bore diameter you can get special lead slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies. It is easy to do. You will need a micrometer. You will also be able to tell if the barrel has tight spots which is what I suspect. Sometimes the plating gets uneven.

Nope, not true in the least bit.

The reason I asked this is that I have noticed the bullet guide on my Tantal effects accuracy. I fitted up a 6x-24x scope to test for accuracy. I fired a number of 5 shot groups and noticed I was getting 2 hits on on side and 3 on the other. When I single loaded the rounds this disappeared. The bullet guide on this rifle is very rough. I dont know what it is doing to the rounds but it an adverse effect on accuracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this look normal to you? I know its not very reliable test but is this ball park?

 

I'll double check my 5.45 barrel when I get home but that looks fine.

 

Really amazed it's your rifle.

 

If you have any good cameras try taking as hi-def picture as you can down the barrel. No flash from the camera and a very dim light at the bore face.

 

If the barrel ID is OK and it's key holing like that all I can think of is something horribly wrong with the rifling that'd I'd think would be obvious to the naked eye. Hence the down the bore pic request :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can i ask you what serial # you got? i just received a couple of 5.45x39's and was gonna put 2 away, and blast one. now im thinking i should go test them all.

 

Starts H09 88#####

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does this look normal to you? I know its not very reliable test but is this ball park?

 

I'll double check my 5.45 barrel when I get home but that looks fine.

 

Really amazed it's your rifle.

 

If you have any good cameras try taking as hi-def picture as you can down the barrel. No flash from the camera and a very dim light at the bore face.

 

If the barrel ID is OK and it's key holing like that all I can think of is something horribly wrong with the rifling that'd I'd think would be obvious to the naked eye. Hence the down the bore pic request :)

 

 

Well, I am a professional photographer. LOL I should be ashamed of posting cell phone pics!!! I'll give it a shot when I get home, but like I said in an earlier post, a gunsmith told me it looked perfect and he could see no flaws.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait till you get home!? It's not in the trunk of your car or the corner of your office? Something wrong with this picture...

 

Does this look normal to you? I know its not very reliable test but is this ball park?

 

I'll double check my 5.45 barrel when I get home but that looks fine.

 

Really amazed it's your rifle.

 

If you have any good cameras try taking as hi-def picture as you can down the barrel. No flash from the camera and a very dim light at the bore face.

 

If the barrel ID is OK and it's key holing like that all I can think of is something horribly wrong with the rifling that'd I'd think would be obvious to the naked eye. Hence the down the bore pic request :)

 

 

Well, I am a professional photographer. LOL I should be ashamed of posting cell phone pics!!! I'll give it a shot when I get home, but like I said in an earlier post, a gunsmith told me it looked perfect and he could see no flaws.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wait till you get home!? It's not in the trunk of your car or the corner of your office? Something wrong with this picture...

 

Does this look normal to you? I know its not very reliable test but is this ball park?

 

I'll double check my 5.45 barrel when I get home but that looks fine.

 

Really amazed it's your rifle.

 

If you have any good cameras try taking as hi-def picture as you can down the barrel. No flash from the camera and a very dim light at the bore face.

 

If the barrel ID is OK and it's key holing like that all I can think of is something horribly wrong with the rifling that'd I'd think would be obvious to the naked eye. Hence the down the bore pic request :)

 

 

Well, I am a professional photographer. LOL I should be ashamed of posting cell phone pics!!! I'll give it a shot when I get home, but like I said in an earlier post, a gunsmith told me it looked perfect and he could see no flaws.

 

 

 

Oh man, thanks for the laugh, i really needed that! Somehow I don't think the anti-gun newspaper I work for would like an evil "AK-47 assault rifle" (as they call everything from SKS to a Ruger 10/22 with a tacti-cool stock) sitting in the corner. But I'd sure like to see the looks on their faces! hahah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't even know why at this point, but I took it to my friend who's a machinist to try to measure the bore. He used pins and an electronic caliper. Anyway, he said .214 was a no go at the muzzle and .213 was a go. Now where it gets more confusing (as I said I don't know why I'm still putting effort into it at this point) the caliper gave readings from .212 - .222 at the muzzle. unsure.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you measured the barrel yet?

 

The bullet test doesn't really mean much, but the barrel it should be .214, all the 5.45's I've checked are .214. If it's keyholing that bad it sounds like the bore is much larger than that, maybe .218 or greater. You get can go/no go gauges to test it out. If it were me I'd rather know what the barrel specs are for sure and prove that part one way or the other.

 

 

 

Z

 

Could you describe how to perform these tests with the gauges? Stupid Question I know. Just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

Tromix - Lead Delivery Systems
Dinzag Arms
CHAOS, Inc
Mississippi Auto Arms, Inc
Cobra's Custom
Carolina Shooters Supply
R & R Targets
LONE STAR ARMS
SGM Tactical
Mach 1 Arsenal
K-VAR
C&S Metall-Werkes
American Specialty Ammo
Csspecs Magazines
Phoenix Technology
Evlutionz LLC


  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×