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ODGreenThumb

Extreme keyholing on new 5.45

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Have you measured the barrel yet?

 

The bullet test doesn't really mean much, but the barrel it should be .214, all the 5.45's I've checked are .214. If it's keyholing that bad it sounds like the bore is much larger than that, maybe .218 or greater. You get can go/no go gauges to test it out. If it were me I'd rather know what the barrel specs are for sure and prove that part one way or the other.

 

 

 

Z

 

Could you describe how to perform these tests with the gauges? Stupid Question I know. Just want to make sure I'm doing it right.

 

You can use a drill bit as a gauge and double check the bit size with a caliper. A #3 is 0.2130

http://www.csgnetwork.com/drillsizeconvert.html

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I don't even know why at this point, but I took it to my friend who's a machinist to try to measure the bore. He used pins and an electronic caliper. Anyway, he said .214 was a no go at the muzzle and .213 was a go. Now where it gets more confusing (as I said I don't know why I'm still putting effort into it at this point) the caliper gave readings from .212 - .222 at the muzzle. unsure.gif

 

 

The first measurements sound correct, .213 is a go and .214 is a no go. Sounds spot on to me.

 

The second set using calipers is probably normal, it can be hard to get calipers exactly right on certain things which is why the go/no go gauges are there. Could be he measured lands and grooves also.

 

 

Sounds to me like your barrel is in spec. Previously you mentioned your gunsmith said the chrome and the barrel looked good, it all implies there is nothing wrong with the barrel.

 

I don't recall if you mentioned you shot with the brake off as well to test for bullets striking it.

 

 

Z

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The only other thing I could think of is you have a really fucked up muzzle crown... and when the bullet leaves the muzzle it has gas blow-by which causes the bullet to immediately yaw, and with the spin to start to tumble...

 

Other than that... and it NOT being the ammo... The only other possibility is the rifling is fucked up... if you look down the barrel does the rifling make a nice spiral pattern as your eye focus changes down the length?

 

I would certainly run a good bore-scope from chamber to muzzle and have the gunsmith look for defects... ( although I thought you said he did and said it looked good) there is SOMETHING obviously VERY VERY WRONG with that rifle!!

 

 

 

:smoke:

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I don't even know why at this point, but I took it to my friend who's a machinist to try to measure the bore. He used pins and an electronic caliper. Anyway, he said .214 was a no go at the muzzle and .213 was a go. Now where it gets more confusing (as I said I don't know why I'm still putting effort into it at this point) the caliper gave readings from .212 - .222 at the muzzle. unsure.gif

 

 

The first measurements sound correct, .213 is a go and .214 is a no go. Sounds spot on to me.

 

The second set using calipers is probably normal, it can be hard to get calipers exactly right on certain things which is why the go/no go gauges are there. Could be he measured lands and grooves also.

 

 

Sounds to me like your barrel is in spec. Previously you mentioned your gunsmith said the chrome and the barrel looked good, it all implies there is nothing wrong with the barrel.

 

I don't recall if you mentioned you shot with the brake off as well to test for bullets striking it.

 

 

Z

 

No muzzle brakeunsure.gif. edited for bad typing skills.

 

 

 

Edited by ODGreenThumb

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As far as I can tell, the rifling looks great. Smith said the same thing, though I think he'd be more thorough if I was paying for bench time, which I understand. Something has to be out of spec here. What else but the barrel or ammo could cause this... if anything?

The only other thing I could think of is you have a really fucked up muzzle crown... and when the bullet leaves the muzzle it has gas blow-by which causes the bullet to immediately yaw, and with the spin to start to tumble...

 

Other than that... and it NOT being the ammo... The only other possibility is the rifling is fucked up... if you look down the barrel does the rifling make a nice spiral pattern as your eye focus changes down the length?

 

I would certainly run a good bore-scope from chamber to muzzle and have the gunsmith look for defects... ( although I thought you said he did and said it looked good) there is SOMETHING obviously VERY VERY WRONG with that rifle!!

 

 

 

:smoke:

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+1 on the crown and that's something that's fairly easy to correct. As for measuring, calipers aren't the most accurate. If your friend is a machinist, have him take something soft like a large lead sinker or lead shot and use a brass hammer and drive it into the barrel from the muzzle end and push it through with a wood dowl. This is a form of slugging. Use a micrometer and measure the slug-this will give you an accurate measurement. You can also do this to varying depths and get an idea on uniformity. The pin gauge was also a good idea, but you're only measuring the high point of the rifling. Maybe post a good clear picture of the crown?

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+1 on the crown and that's something that's fairly easy to correct. As for measuring, calipers aren't the most accurate. If your friend is a machinist, have him take something soft like a large lead sinker or lead shot and use a brass hammer and drive it into the barrel from the muzzle end and push it through with a wood dowl. This is a form of slugging. Use a micrometer and measure the slug-this will give you an accurate measurement. You can also do this to varying depths and get an idea on uniformity. The pin gauge was also a good idea, but you're only measuring the high point of the rifling. Maybe post a good clear picture of the crown?

 

I don't know exactly what I'm looking for, but it does not appear to be even all the way around. Look at the left side. There seems to be less material than the right.

post-33433-0-28192100-1306601980_thumb.jpg

Edited by ODGreenThumb

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the lands and grooves of the rifling will give you the two different depths. The lands are what cut into the bullet to force it to spin and stabilize (and are the narrower dimension). I still think you should check the twist rate of your barrel, I know it would be a total fluke to get a 1:16 twist AK74 factory barrel- but the wrong twist rate would explain this all. somehow a .22 LR blank got in the 5.45x39mm blank pile?

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Any resolution yet?

 

This has me scared as I just received a Hermes/Legion 5.45 with a close serial to yours... H0989xxxxx with 118mm. Think I am going to fire it before I do the conversion.

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No solution yet, playing the waiting game. Definitely shoot it first. Still waiting for an answer about conversion and warranty work.

I thought I already answered that, If it is a RAAC gun, and you did nothing wrong during the conversion Tom Cole said that the warranty is still good. Now if you slipped and screwed up the rifling or something, and he could tell, then of course you are on your own.

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Yes you did answer that already, but I would think they could easily say I messed it up. No offense intended but i'd like to hear it from them. I did nothing to the rifling or gas system. I'm just hoping for a solution and I'd really like to know what the problem is. It is a mh legion but Tom told me those are covered as well.

Edited by ODGreenThumb

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No offense intended but i'd like to hear it from them.

Well, here you go.

 

 

So it seems as if I am right?...

something like as long as you didn't mess it up it was covered

 

Yessir. Eg; if you convert but your factory ports were too small or too few, as long as you don't start drilling and grinding on your gun, they should cover it.

 

 

Yes, It is covered if the factory ports are too small.

But I will not waste anymore of my time fixing someones elses"Professional" conversion. If you paid someone to convert, they should test fire and send you back a functioning weapon.

 

It's just been too easy on these people who do crappy work to tell the customer to ssend it too me to fix poor work. (Bad hammer profiles, hammer springs not installed properly, and the best one was no retainer of any kind on the hammer and trigger springs)

So, let us say that myself, not a business, has drilled the pins, cut the rivets, installed a pg, tg, unmodified fcg, no welds, just bolted on usuals...and removed the necessary parts to do the pg conversion...

 

...not damaged any part which you should be able to tell, I am still covered right? If something crazy happens, like I read about someones piston breaking or what not...

 

If so, BOOOYA to CK, bigbadj, and whoever else wants to speak for someone else

 

 

Yepp........covered., But each case is looked at by me, personally, no more freebies for neglect/poor work.

Edited by beefcakeb0

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No offense intended but i'd like to hear it from them.

Well, here you go.

 

 

So it seems as if I am right?...

something like as long as you didn't mess it up it was covered

 

Yessir. Eg; if you convert but your factory ports were too small or too few, as long as you don't start drilling and grinding on your gun, they should cover it.

 

 

Yes, It is covered if the factory ports are too small.

But I will not waste anymore of my time fixing someones elses"Professional" conversion. If you paid someone to convert, they should test fire and send you back a functioning weapon.

 

It's just been too easy on these people who do crappy work to tell the customer to ssend it too me to fix poor work. (Bad hammer profiles, hammer springs not installed properly, and the best one was no retainer of any kind on the hammer and trigger springs)

So, let us say that myself, not a business, has drilled the pins, cut the rivets, installed a pg, tg, unmodified fcg, no welds, just bolted on usuals...and removed the necessary parts to do the pg conversion...

 

...not damaged any part which you should be able to tell, I am still covered right? If something crazy happens, like I read about someones piston breaking or what not...

 

If so, BOOOYA to CK, bigbadj, and whoever else wants to speak for someone else

 

 

Yepp........covered., But each case is looked at by me, personally, no more freebies for neglect/poor work.

 

Thanks man, much appreciated.

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Is there any way a tapco g2 trigger group could cause keyholing? I mean would those components be able to change anything that would cause this? Or perhaps the saiga tapco galil handguard?

Edited by ODGreenThumb

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The only things that I can think of would be;

bullet weight or out of shape,

inner barrel diameter,

barrel rifling, and

maybe crowning.

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When I shot it today, I was getting keyholes on every round into the paper. Only shot from about 50 feet, 25 feet, and 10 feet.

 

i been thinking..... doesnt the 5.45x39 round need to travel a certain distance before it stabilizes? like 75 or 100 yards? 50 feet is 13 yards/meters. have you tried shooting at 100 metered targets? next time you shoot it, try some longer shots. maybe your to close?

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When I shot it today, I was getting keyholes on every round into the paper. Only shot from about 50 feet, 25 feet, and 10 feet.

 

i been thinking..... doesnt the 5.45x39 round need to travel a certain distance before it stabilizes? like 75 or 100 yards? 50 feet is 13 yards/meters. have you tried shooting at 100 metered targets? next time you shoot it, try some longer shots. maybe your to close?

 

It shouldn't keyhole at any distance.

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Is there any way a tapco g2 trigger group could cause keyholing? I mean would those components be able to change anything that would cause this? Or perhaps the saiga tapco galil handguard?

The handguard could have potential effects on the barrel, try switching back to the stock one and see what happens. Not saying that is the problem, but it does screw in under the barrel. Just a thought. Might be completely wrong.

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When I shot it today, I was getting keyholes on every round into the paper. Only shot from about 50 feet, 25 feet, and 10 feet.

 

i been thinking..... doesnt the 5.45x39 round need to travel a certain distance before it stabilizes? like 75 or 100 yards? 50 feet is 13 yards/meters. have you tried shooting at 100 metered targets? next time you shoot it, try some longer shots. maybe your to close?

 

I've shot my 5.45 at 10Y out to 30Y at an indoor range; nice neat round holes at all distances.

 

* really wish OP would check his barrels twist rate.

Edited by JK-47

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When I shot it today, I was getting keyholes on every round into the paper. Only shot from about 50 feet, 25 feet, and 10 feet.

 

i been thinking..... doesnt the 5.45x39 round need to travel a certain distance before it stabilizes? like 75 or 100 yards? 50 feet is 13 yards/meters. have you tried shooting at 100 metered targets? next time you shoot it, try some longer shots. maybe your to close?

 

I've shot my 5.45 at 10Y out to 30Y at an indoor range; nice neat round holes at all distances.

 

* really wish OP would check his barrels twist rate.

 

I'm getting 1:10.5

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Is there any way a tapco g2 trigger group could cause keyholing? I mean would those components be able to change anything that would cause this? Or perhaps the saiga tapco galil handguard?

The handguard could have potential effects on the barrel, try switching back to the stock one and see what happens. Not saying that is the problem, but it does screw in under the barrel. Just a thought. Might be completely wrong.

 

I thought about the same thing but it should note that I kept the tapco retainer a little looser than necessary to keep it firm and in place over sustained firing. I've seen other threads where the tapco saiga galil retainer works it self out and some have even sheared the bolt from over tightening. I figured once I fired it to see if I like it or not, I'd tighten it down and loctite it.

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I'm getting 1:10.5

 

way to slow for the long skinny bullets in a 5.45x39mm, I think my WASR has a 1 in 8 twist rate. like someone else said, you might have a 22LR barrel that got thrown in the pile of 5.45 blanks.

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Yeah 1:10.5 is too slow, 1:7.7 or 1:8 (Its actually a metric twist rate, IDK exactly what, everything russian is metric) is the correct twist for 5.45x39 surplus/mil ammo. Then again the cleaning rod method of measuring is not garanteed accurate.

 

It doesn't look like any armchair detective work is gonna solve this one, hopefully it can be warranteed and maybe they can figure it out.

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Yeah 1:10.5 is too slow, 1:7.7 or 1:8 (Its actually a metric twist rate, IDK exactly what, everything russian is metric) is the correct twist for 5.45x39 surplus/mil ammo. Then again the cleaning rod method of measuring is not garanteed accurate.

 

It doesn't look like any armchair detective work is gonna solve this one, hopefully it can be warranteed and maybe they can figure it out.

 

Yeah, when I was doing it it didn't feel like a very accurate method, at least when I'm performing it. I tried several times and got 9.5-10.5.

 

 

Edit: And yeah, I'm making teeny-tiny bits of progress/communication with RAAC. I know they're swamped right now. Still trying to figure out what can be done.

Edited by ODGreenThumb

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If it was .22 barrel he'd be getting a bigger bore measurement than .213 though.

Edited by W8lifter

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Have you tried hand cycling a few rounds and checked the bullets tips for deformations= possible feed ramp or mag problem deforming the tips usually with non jacketed rounds.

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