GeorgiaPD 408 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Edited May 30, 2011 by GeorgiaPD 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Here's another video that shows that ordinary citizens don't have a chance when cops resort to these dirty underhanded tactics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj7dt9YXgGs&feature=player_detailpage Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cryogaijin 33 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) I hate getting as off topic as we are, but I have to respond a bit to the cries of "Anti-LEO" sentiment. The situation of LEO and Citizen interaction is far more complex than we really have time for in a venue like this forum. To start off with, the vast majority of police/citizen interaction is trivial and positive. This involves things like simply being a visible presence, chatting with people, and the like. This happens often, and is usually completely forgotten quickly due to being so mundane. The next most common citizen/police interaction are trivial things like traffic stops which put someone on the defensive. For example, I was stopped about 8 months ago for a burnt out tail light. (I had no idea it was burned out.) Coincidentally enough, that was the same day I bought my s12, which was sitting on the back seat (in its box) of my car. The officer was cooly professional, but a bit aloof and haughty. He gave me a "fixit ticket" but did deign to look over my car to make sure no other lights were out. All in all it was a fairly negative interaction, and because it had that initial surge of adrenalin attached to the pullover, I'll remember it with much more detail and for far longer than any of my more positive interactions. The situation is further complicated in that the media and police departments themselves treat the police as a Protected Class. It is not uncommon for police to be told that they would rather 10 citizens (or whatever) die before one cop does. (In other words, go into dangerous situations only when you have overwhelming supperiority) This can help set up an "us vs them" mentality that reflects negatively on the profession as a whole. Further, many officers view people as "potential criminals" rather than "innocents in need of our protection. . . until proven guilty." It is that mentality and the network that leads to it that results in advice like that put forth in this video: http://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc WATCH this video. Now those of us that are blessed to be working with the police fairly often, as I am at work (Graves in a hotel), I know the vast majority of police I deal with are fairly nice people who got into the job from a sense of wanting to use their strength and talents to protect and serve the population as a whole. I demonstrate my respect for them by doing as complete a job as possible preparing for what they need when they come on property. (preparing keys without being asked, noting time chops on our security of incidents, giving exhaustively complete and accurate descriptions) They, in turn, show their respect by keeping me better informed than they would just some random citizen. They recognize that as a professional I am accountable for the property I work at, and need to be able to report to my superiors in the same level of detail I give to them. TL:DNR: Basic psychology tends to make people dislike people in authority, through no real fault of their own. This can be eliminated partially by being approachable and friendly. Edited May 30, 2011 by Cryogaijin 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rastamanila 313 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Uhm maybe he should not have been holding his AR when they came a no-knocking? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D.C.MORRISON 494 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 Uhm maybe he should not have been holding his AR when they came a no-knocking? you may be confused . i think you're in the wrong thread . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenman223 460 Posted May 30, 2011 Report Share Posted May 30, 2011 (edited) Your right, not the exact same thing until you consider one more thing in the equation. While you are doing all of your research, see if you can find the "Enhanced Penalty" section for when criminal activity occurs while in the performance of official duties. Most every state has one. This will not be a get out of jail free card for them and IN FACT, the state charges are the least of their worries. Another quick search will lead you to Title 18 USC 241 and 18 USC 242. Short version of these concern criminal activity "Under the Color of Law" and concern the federal charges that these guys will be facing. They can/will be charged twice for the same crime as double jeopardy does not apply to Leo's if the crimes were committed while in the line of duty. They in fact could be given a light sentence and penalty phase from the state in order to get them into the federal system faster. This will be where they are charged with violation of the victims Fourth Amendment Rights. Federal penalties are required to serve 100% of the sentence with no early release. Not to mention the fact that under the federal guidelines, they can now be sued personally along with the state and the agency. Big-J, In part, I agree with you in your interpretation with the research that you completed and I'm not trying to start an argument about it with you. Most people either do not know about enhanced penalties or they have never heard of them. On face value, the charges that they are facing might appear to be a slap on the wrist, but they will not be if they are convicted with an enhanced penalty. I always consider them and sometimes forget to mention them in my responses to people. Additionally, they are only being charged right now. The District Attorney can upgrade the charges at any time as more information, investigation and evidence becomes available. If these guys are found guilty, they will be looking at decades behind bars. *Edit for spelling The research was not exactly research just a quick 5 min google search. After a quick search of the laws you cited, I have to say neither one of those apply to this, the first is concerning conspiracy to deprive civil rights and the second refers to aliens or "persons of color" Im no lawyer but im pretty sure neither of these will be applied to this case. From what I found after a quick look, It appears AT MOST they could face a civil rights violation charge with a maximum of 10 years and minimum of 41 months. There is also a misdemeanor charge of civil rights violation(which I dont understand) that has a max. of 1 year in prison. I found this case http://www.nwitimes....9049bdfc06.html where a police CHIEF was given 41 months,(the minimum) for a similar type of case. He stormed someone's home and falsely arrested 4 people after suspecting them of breaking in his house. Interestingly he was acquitted of 5 civil rights charges,(I imagine stemming from 4th amend. and such) and was convicted of civ.rights viol. for kicking the guy after he was handcuffed! Of course every case is different but this is just an example of why I stand by my statement that this will be a get outta jail free card for these cops. I cant remember a single time an LEO was charged with a serious crime and was ACTUALLY SENTENCED to a serious sentence in line with what a civilian would receive. Not saying it hasnt happened, I just cant remember thinking "That cop got what he deserved, for his crime" Its always "that bastard got a slap on the wrist" IMO there will be NO enhanced penalties, maybe reduced penalties but not enhanced. On a side note I found a guy by the same name as the police cheif who was sentenced to 10 years for 30 hydrocodone! Here is a link to the ACLU page about this case http://aclu-co.org/n...lled-jason-kemp (check out the marvin booker video, sickening. Apparently CO has a serious issue with police brutality,not that the country doesnt!) From what I gather the charges filed will be ALL the charges these guys face, plus the wrongful death lawsuits have been filed and those dont usually come until after criminal charges. Also this article points out the problem is not so much with the officers but the training on state level. Our LEO's are being trained that this kind of behavior is acceptable, I think this is the biggest problem with police brutality, even people who start out as good cops end up bad b/c they are taught "this is how we do things" Also not arguing just a discussion of viewpoints, I can tell by your name you have a certain bias but you cant deny this is an endemic problem. What'cha gonna do when they come for YOU?!! (With Desert Eagles) Edited May 30, 2011 by big-J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EnzNow 14 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) Uhm maybe he should not have been holding his AR when they came a no-knocking? you may be confused . i think you're in the wrong thread . I think he is referencing this: The Pima County Sheriff's Department, which coordinated the raid, initially reported that Guerena had fired his rifle at officers. Authorities would say they shot him 60 times, with 71 rounds fired. That was on May 5. Two weeks later, the department corrected its statement. Guerena had not fired at officers, it said. An assault rifle was found nearby but was unfired, its safety on Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2011/05/28/20110528tucson-swat-team-kills-ex-marine-jose-guerena.html#ixzz1Nv9w15XE -EnzNow Edited May 31, 2011 by EnzNow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 I think he is referencing this: The Pima County Sheriff's Department.... Yes, which IS off-topic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
EnzNow 14 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) I think he is referencing this: The Pima County Sheriff's Department.... Yes, which IS off-topic. The OP brought this up in the origninal post "I tell you, this combined with the murder of the Arizona marine vet by the Pima County SWAT team this month demonstrate plainly to me that our 4th amendment rights don't mean shit anymore." How is that "off-topic"...this whole thread is off topic... IF your not part of the solution your part of the problem, bigj480. -EnzNow Edited June 1, 2011 by EnzNow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 Trying to justify shooting an unarmed man in his own home is a hell of a thing to do isn't it? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) "It's us against them" "It's a war out there" calling citizens "civilians", etc... These phrases are heard in EVERY PD in this country, daily. How can we NOT expect there to be an adversarial relationship? Watch that video of the Pima County raid- That Marine meant them no harm, or the entire entry team would be dead, not him. They milled around the kill zone, and outside his front window for a long time before even (loosely and grabbastically) stacking and entering. That was an assassination, period. Not a very good one, certainly nowhere near professional, but all the same... He KNEW something or had some dirt. Thing is, the police are going to keep doing it, and sooner or later somebody is going to convincingly fight back... Then the calls will go out again for an "assault weapons" ban... The script is already written. I wonder if the police executing these unconstitutional warrants realize they are really just tools? Edited June 1, 2011 by bohound 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenman223 460 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 ^^^This is exactly what I thought when I read the OP, What if someone had been that with that poor guy they would have had every right to shoot those cops but I bet they would have got more than a "negligent homicide" charge. God forbid somebody fights back to this police abuse who is well armed and a good shot. If you dont think we have a serious problem in this country with police abuse and rights violations you just havent had enough encounters with police yet. Sure their not all bad but the ones that aren't stand by and watch the ones that are. It seems there are only A FEW who actually will turn in or stand up (and risk their career) to fellow officers. Cant say I blame'em I wouldnt wont to risk my career tellin on another cop either. Everyone should watch this Its a 6 part series, most of the videos and police actions ive never seen on any tv show, part 4 or 5 theres a video of a cop shooting a guy in handcuffs on his stomach! Part 6 is something I never thought id see in america, fuckin storm troopers with attack dogs raiding a party that had full permission, had a permit from the city, etc. etc. In another part ex-cops go around cities asking "how do I file a complaint" half of them get arrested!!! The whole series is sickening to watch but makes me realize its even worse than I thought!! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saltydecimator 482 Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 To take the anti cop bashers side, there has been a lot of cop killings already this year. Granted that has hardly anything to do with cop bashing on internet forums, and everything to do with people being generally pissed off at the govt. On the other hand, I hope these guys fry! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saltydecimator 482 Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 To take the anti cop bashers side, there has been a lot of cop killings already this year. Granted that has hardly anything to do with cop bashing on internet forums, and everything to do with people being generally pissed off at the govt. On the other hand, I hope these guys fry! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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