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Cycling Value Pack without Overgassing


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I did some searches but couldn't quite find the information I was looking for.

 

When I try firing low-brass value pack ammo, I have to keep the gun on a high gas setting. Problem is, I get this weird orange residue on the gas tube, which I believe means it's being overgassed. It goes away after a while, but it's wearing away the finish on the tube (which isn't a super big deal to me cosmetically, but I want to make sure I'm not damaging the gun itself).

 

Currently I have installed these parts:

A lighter recoil spring from CSS.

The V-plug from MD Arms.

And the E-Tac twister puck.

 

I'm going to try a new gas puck, most likely the one from Kings Armory. But I also see that MD Arms put out a booster puck (any good?). I have put maybe 350 rounds through it so far. Maybe I just need to break it in more? Will getting a better puck help? Does that orange residue mean my gun is getting damaged? Is there a way I can prevent the deterioration of the finish on top of the gas tube?

 

Thanks for reading.

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Yeah I've been focusing on just making the most of my gas ports as is (yes I have the 3 gas ports and yes the bolt is polished [so is the carrier]). Haven't gotten the reduced spring just yet because I don't want to over work the design but what I have done is order the booster puck and the auto plug. So while I don't have an answer I'm very interested in what you will find out. I'm gonna subscribe to this one, I'm looking for similar info.

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By "high gas setting" you mean the setting that provides minimum gas flow to the piston? The full "minus" setting?

 

High setting as in more gas flow. I think it's setting 4(or 3) on the V-plug, and it's setting 2 on the factory.

 

I'll try to get pics. What's mostly happening to the gas tube is that the finish seems to be kind of fading. I'll be taking it out to shoot again in a month or so with the new gas puck. If the problem persists I'll post pics here of this orange residue.

Edited by Deaden
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Have you ever tried shooting your S12 without the lighter spring? The only reason I ask is, I see a lot of newer guys installing parts like that before they even shoot their S12.

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Can't say as I would ever go with the lighter spring. My S12 has kind of a hard time chambering that first hand-cycled round & sometimes I wish it had a little stiffer spring. It is fairly new, like less than 100 rounds, so hopefully it will loosen up as it breaks in.

 

Hey Deaden, how many rounds have been fired through your S12?

Did you oil the gas tube / puck before firing that ammo?

 

Maybe a chemical reaction between the oil & powder / carbon turning it weird colors.

 

I was shooting 1325 fps low brass Winchester Xpert Game/Target steel shot ammo & it would FTE on anything less than wipe open on my V-plug (full + setting).

 

I read some guy on here had what he thought was one big hole where the gas ports are located. Russian precision is sometimes less than perfect.

Edited by VULCANGUNNER
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That weird orange residue sounds like rust to me.

 

OK....

Twister puck is not for running low base loads. It is for magnum or high base loads. You are going in the completely wrong direction with that if you are wanting to use low base loads.

 

The reduced power spring is not something that I would use or recommend. Get rid of that spring and the Twister puck and get the MD Boooster puck. If I weren't as talented with my hands I would probably try the booster. If you can't do it yourself, send your internals out for friction reduction. Good luck and do not give up.

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That weird orange residue sounds like rust to me.

 

That's what came to my mind, too... but I'm still trying to picture all this. Is what you're calling the 'gas tube' the place where the puck goes? Semantics, I know, but most of us call that the gas chamber, and the gas tube is the smaller tube where the piston rod that is attached to the bolt carrier rides. If you're getting that residue in the gas chamber it's most likely fouling of some sort though I've never heard of orange. If the residue is in the gas tube, then that area might very well be rusted and the rod is breaking/scraping it loose... but from the way you described it seems like this residue is on the outside? And effecting the finish? Best to break it down for us Barney-style and post some pictures with big red arrows pointing to this stuff.

 

Anyway, I think for your average finicky brand new S12, you should now be able to get away with the MD arms booster puck plus a good break in period with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads without having to get in and drill the ports IOT shoot the cheap bulk low brass. Get some buckshot and slugs to send those down range for awhile. If you're planning on using the gun for SD/HD, you should be taking the time to learn the patterning of your gun with these rounds anyway.

 

Of course, if you haven't converted and your gun is still under warranty... just send it in if you can part with it for a few weeks or however long it takes to have the work done.

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Can't say as I would ever go with the lighter spring. My S12 has kind of a hard time chambering that first hand-cycled round & sometimes I wish it had a little stiffer spring.

 

Mine does the same thing and it has less than a 100 rounds through it as well.

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I really don't think you overgas for "low-brass value pack ammo" to begin with. All of the parts you listed are basically unnecessary, which is kind of obvious since you are still the having issues that you are trying to alleviate with these parts. You can spend your money the way you want, but you'd be way farther ahead doing a polish and port job to get the results you're looking for.

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EDIT: I'm sorry about the crappy camera, but this is the best pic I could get for now. Can you kind of see where the finish is fading a bit? In some lighting conditions it's very noticeable, in others it's almost not even visible. I'll try to get some better ones in the near future.

 

post-24998-0-91656000-1307063888_thumb.jpg

 

 

Also what kind of low brass have you tried specificly?

 

Federal Value Pack, 1 1/8 0z, 2 3/4".

 

 

Have you ever tried shooting your S12 without the lighter spring? The only reason I ask is, I see a lot of newer guys installing parts like that before they even shoot their S12.

 

Yes, I have the lighter recoil spring from CSS. Once I grab an MD booster puck, I'm going to try the factory one again.

 

 

Hey Deaden, how many rounds have been fired through your S12?

Did you oil the gas tube / puck before firing that ammo?

 

I've fired about 300-350 rounds. Mostly value pack. Some high-brass bird shot. I'm going to be trying some Winchester Super-sport next time I go up.

 

 

That weird orange residue sounds like rust to me.

 

OK....

Twister puck is not for running low base loads. It is for magnum or high base loads. You are going in the completely wrong direction with that if you are wanting to use low base loads.

 

The reduced power spring is not something that I would use or recommend. Get rid of that spring and the Twister puck and get the MD Boooster puck. If I weren't as talented with my hands I would probably try the booster. If you can't do it yourself, send your internals out for friction reduction. Good luck and do not give up.

 

Yeah I wasn't happy with the twister puck at all (I think it's worst than my factory in terms of cycling low-brass). I really want to reinstall my factory spring, but I think the lighter spring helps. I'll bring both when I bring it up to my gramp's for more testing and try the factory one first. And yes, the MD booster puck was the first on my wishlist. And rust? I don't know about that. It goes away after a while.

 

 

That weird orange residue sounds like rust to me.

 

That's what came to my mind, too... but I'm still trying to picture all this. Is what you're calling the 'gas tube' the place where the puck goes? Semantics, I know, but most of us call that the gas chamber, and the gas tube is the smaller tube where the piston rod that is attached to the bolt carrier rides. If you're getting that residue in the gas chamber it's most likely fouling of some sort though I've never heard of orange. If the residue is in the gas tube, then that area might very well be rusted and the rod is breaking/scraping it loose... but from the way you described it seems like this residue is on the outside? And effecting the finish? Best to break it down for us Barney-style and post some pictures with big red arrows pointing to this stuff.

 

 

 

Anyway, I think for your average finicky brand new S12, you should now be able to get away with the MD arms booster puck plus a good break in period with a couple of hundred rounds of high brass loads without having to get in and drill the ports IOT shoot the cheap bulk low brass. Get some buckshot and slugs to send those down range for awhile. If you're planning on using the gun for SD/HD, you should be taking the time to learn the patterning of your gun with these rounds anyway.

 

Of course, if you haven't converted and your gun is still under warranty... just send it in if you can part with it for a few weeks or however long it takes to have the work done.

 

The orange stuff appears on the gas tube itself, as in the tube where the piston rod rides. It shows up on the outside for a few hours after rapid fire then goes away. The finish is fading on the tube. The middle is more faded than the edges. I'll get some pics up of the fading finish soon.

 

 

I really don't think you overgas for "low-brass value pack ammo" to begin with. All of the parts you listed are basically unnecessary, which is kind of obvious since you are still the having issues that you are trying to alleviate with these parts. You can spend your money the way you want, but you'd be way farther ahead doing a polish and port job to get the results you're looking for.

 

I'd LOVE to get that kind of work done on it, but I do not currently have the money to send it in to get it done. So, for now, I'm looking for some band-aid fixes until I can afford to put some more money into it.

Edited by Deaden
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I think I have, but it's been a while, so I'll look through them again. As for ammo, I've considered using more expensive stuff, but that usually means less shooting. I might use it just to break the gun in more, but I'd prefer to be able to use the 100rd value packs, as I don't make a lot of money, but love to shoot a lot when I can. Using bandaid fixed can save a lot in the long run. Spending 50-100% more on ammo... not so much.

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I think I have, but it's been a while, so I'll look through them again. As for ammo, I've considered using more expensive stuff, but that usually means less shooting. I might use it just to break the gun in more, but I'd prefer to be able to use the 100rd value packs, as I don't make a lot of money, but love to shoot a lot when I can. Using bandaid fixed can save a lot in the long run. Spending 50-100% more on ammo... not so much.

 

 

I hear you on the expensive ammo. Not everybody can afford to blast the high dollar stuff. Get it running smooth on the cheap stuff & everything else will work great. It's my experience that the cheap ammo brings out the inefficiencies in the system. My SPAS 12 was picky as hell about ammo, 10 times worse than the S12.

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I really don't think you overgas for "low-brass value pack ammo" to begin with. All of the parts you listed are basically unnecessary, which is kind of obvious since you are still the having issues that you are trying to alleviate with these parts. You can spend your money the way you want, but you'd be way farther ahead doing a polish and port job to get the results you're looking for.

Well stated. I am one to look toward refining what is already there instead of adding or swapping parts.

 

My S12 runs excellent as anyone who has viewed my videos can see. It has 4 ports @ .093" and only runs the garbage ammo reliably on a wide open setting no matter what regulator I use. Some may disagree based solely on the fact that it will run the cheap stuff, but I feel that it is perfectly "gassed". All points of friction have been reprofiled or polished. I'm no genius, but I do all of it myself. Works great and looks nice, I might add.

 

If you are not very mechanically inclined or don't feel comfortable doing it yourself, send it to someone that is comfortable doing it. I can't say from experience, but it sounds like everyone is happy when they send their stuff to Cobra or Pauly. C&S does it too and the pics of the work that I have seen look nicely done, but I can't recall anyone having theirs done by them. I would have to see all three up close and personal to really say who I think does the best work. As many rounds as I fire in one session, if I were firing buck or slugs, I could easily send my internals out for work 4 or more times per trip for the same amount spent. The high brass break-in is a farce IMO. Hand cycle the weapon 1000 times violently and then try running some low brass ammo. It will do just as much gunsmithing as the high brass break in does.... none.

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I really don't think you overgas for "low-brass value pack ammo" to begin with. All of the parts you listed are basically unnecessary, which is kind of obvious since you are still the having issues that you are trying to alleviate with these parts. You can spend your money the way you want, but you'd be way farther ahead doing a polish and port job to get the results you're looking for.

Well stated. I am one to look toward refining what is already there instead of adding or swapping parts.

 

My S12 runs excellent as anyone who has viewed my videos can see. It has 4 ports @ .093" and only runs the garbage ammo reliably on a wide open setting no matter what regulator I use. Some may disagree based solely on the fact that it will run the cheap stuff, but I feel that it is perfectly "gassed". All points of friction have been reprofiled or polished. I'm no genius, but I do all of it myself. Works great and looks nice, I might add.

 

If you are not very mechanically inclined or don't feel comfortable doing it yourself, send it to someone that is comfortable doing it. I can't say from experience, but it sounds like everyone is happy when they send their stuff to Cobra or Pauly. C&S does it too and the pics of the work that I have seen look nicely done, but I can't recall anyone having theirs done by them. I would have to see all three up close and personal to really say who I think does the best work. As many rounds as I fire in one session, if I were firing buck or slugs, I could easily send my internals out for work 4 or more times per trip for the same amount spent. The high brass break-in is a farce IMO. Hand cycle the weapon 1000 times violently and then try running some low brass ammo. It will do just as much gunsmithing as the high brass break in does.... none.

 

 

Yes, mine runs anything I want it to, 100%, with the factory spring, plug and puck. I did the polish and port job myself. Cost? Maybe $15 for dremel supplies.

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I run the CSS performance puc, gun fixer plug and standard spring in mine. Seems to me that she is firing more and more reliably the more I shoot her. Initially she wouldn't cycle anything, but ten last time I took her out she performed very well. I am a firm believer in the performance puc. It increases the contact time between the piston and the puc as well as giving you a consistent puc travel in the gas tube. Increased contact and force on the piston increases the bcg travel and dwell time.

Edited by DLT
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