Ready to call it all B.S.!

[DLT 1,646]

A friend and I went to the range today. I took my 22 S308 and he took a customized AR10 with free float barrel and a 10 x 42 leupold with custom hand loads made just for his rifle. We both tried shooting clovers from the 100 meter mark to absolutely no avail. I could accept not doing "one hole" with my S308, but when we could not do this with a $3500 + AR setup, it has led me to now call the constant claims of fantastic accuracy as pure B.S.! I am not pointing fingers or telling anyone directly that I think they are full of it. If you and your rifle can really shoot clovers or the amazing single hole, great for you and your claim. So, if you really can do the above, please post indisputable video proof, because I need to see it to believe it.

 

BTY, the best group we managed was about 2.5 inches with the AR and 3 with the S308. All shots were made from a sitting position with bipod support.

Edited June 5, 2011 by DLT

[Nailbomb 10,221]

BTY, the best group we managed was about 2.5 inches with the AR and 3 with the S308. All shots were made from a sitting position with bipod support.

Dude... I've gotten 2 1/4" groups with my x39 saiga standing supported with golden tiger FMJ. when I posted pics the only reaction i got was "so its just as accurate as a SGL".

[Tuck87 1]

 

BTY, the best group we managed was about 2.5 inches with the AR and 3 with the S308. All shots were made from a sitting position with bipod support.

 

The best group I've shot with a AR was 5-shots in a 1.05 inch group using a Bushmaster 308 ORC with match ammo at 100 yds. Another 5-shot group had 3 rounds touching with a group size of 1.77 inches.

[csspecs 1,987]

Lose the bipod.

 

Get sand bags front and back, then you will probably see what the rifle is capable of.. But unless your planing on taking sandbags everywhere, its good to practice as you will use the rifle.

[Cryogaijin 33]

There is a luck component. The last 25 I put through my 16.5" saiga all fell into one ragged hole about 1.5" across. Now I was benched down with sandbags, but that is still damn nice. Doubt I could repeat it.

 

OTOH my hunting rifle will do that at 300 yards in windless conditions.

[paprotective 362]

I used Caldwell Bag in the front with my hand between the HG and 'bag'..

 

smallest with factory ammo was 1 5/8" with Hornady Ammo.. $26/box..

 

that was with 3-9x40 scope set at 7x..

 

of course I had shot over 200 rounds by the time I bought GOOD ammo.. practice will help..

 

for 200 yards I was happy for under 2 1/2" x say 3 3/4" groups..

 

Was your S308 converted/restored back to AK like design??

 

 

Al

[jdtravers 637]

A .308 is a totally different beast. It will amplify every mistake you make 10 fold! I can shoot my .223 all day long at 1/4 MOA, but when I got into shooting the .308, I thought there was something wrong with the ammo, gun, etc. I was shooting 2 inch groups, no fucking way, gotta be the gun!!

 

NO, it was me! Breathing, trigger control, set up, it all matters big time.

 

Do lots of dry fire at the highest magnification to where there is zero movement and work on setting up on the gun where it is absolutely the same every time (eye relief, non firing hand under the back of the stock, consistent firing hand placement on the gun, cheek weld, etc).

 

Been about a year of good practice and learning how to set up on the gun and I can shoot within 3/4 MOA all day even on a bad day.

 

Proper set up on the gun and trigger control is everything!!

 

Forgot; Learn how to find your cheek weld with the scope shadow. This will put you in the same/close to the same setup every time you get on the gun. Very important.

 

Jack

[Unknown Poster 5]

Years ago with my very first saiga in 308win using the surplus south african 308 ball FMJ ammo me and my son were shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100yds benchrested. I realize it could shoot even tighter groups with a better quality ammo too. But were very happy with the 1 1/2" groups with surplus ammo. For a brand new russian izhmash saiga for just $289 with this kind of accuracy along with the dependability this is hard to beat. Off the shelf the saiga is accurate and the accuracy depends on the quality of the ammo were using too. Now i wonder how good it can shoot using the 175gr FMJBT sniper bullets. The sweet spot for the 308 round seems to be between the 165gr/168gr and the 175gr bullets i believe in most cases. Now i wonder if the 1 1/2" groups will tighten up with the heavier bullets. Don't forget were benchresting it down tight and there is no movement at all in the rifle. When i benchrested my new remington 700 in 338win mag this way i put two rounds thru the same hole at 100yds. So my way of benchresting seems to work and hold the rifle much tighter. I'm almost taking the human factor out of it. I use two home made 2"x10" gun rests one for the front and one for the rear. I let the front of the gun just rest in the front rest and use the back rest to adjust the sights on the target at 100yds. It takes time to adjust the rifle then i hold it straight down into the rests when the sights line up its ready to shoot. I also use the proper breathing and then hold and fire. This tells me what the gun is capabile of doing accuracy wise. I use two solid rests. We did the samething with my norinco sks using norinco ammo and she shot 1 1/2" groups at 100yds too. Again with surplus ammo. Now i need to start reloading for my 308 saiga to see what it can really do. I know there are a few guys here who are shooting steel targets at 450yds with there 16" barreled 308 saiga's and well under 1" moa's @ 100yds too. Bill

 

BTW; The only mods to my guns are there lubed with moly and on the sears too. The let off is very smooth on the triggers when there lubed with moly. The saiga is very rough at first and when its lubed with moly it feels like a more expensive gun.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Unknown Poster

[Mephis 82]

I still feel that a smaller caliber round will out perform a larger caliber round at such a short distance.

 

It's a lot easier to make a 5.56 sub MOA than it is to make a 308 sub MOA.

 

 

Take a bone stock $900 rock river AR15 out and put it up against that $3500 AR10. You'll see what I mean.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Tombs

[IndyArms 10,186]

Lose the bipod.

 

Get sand bags front and back, then you will probably see what the rifle is capable of.. But unless your planing on taking sandbags everywhere, its good to practice as you will use the rifle.

 

 

THIS ^^^^^^

 

 

 

You wasted your entire range trip the moment you locked a bipod on the rifle.

 

It looks great for snipers in the movies... in reality it does not work that well.

 

Get some sandbags... you want that rifle to be so rock solid you can let go and it will stay right on target still. a Good crisp, light trigger will help too!

 

Try THAT... and see how it works... also ... what exactly were these magic bullet custom loads you had? how do you know they were made for that rifle, if they only shot 2 inch groups?!?! thats insane. If I had a $3500.00 AR10 that when using custom hand loads only shoots 2.5 MOA at 100 yards... I would sell it on gunbroker IMMEDIATELY!!! OR... I would be calling the manufacturer and asking them WHY they sold you a rifle that was DEFECTIVE with a bad barrel... for around $3500 you can get a Les Baer custom that will be GUARANTEED to shoot 1/2 MOA or better!!!!!!

 

 

Tell ya what... send it to me... I will shoot it and send you back the video proof that it will hit 1/2 MOA... Hows that? And I will Guarantee it... or no money back!!!

 

[DLT 1,646]

I agree that the bipod sucked. And I don't doubt that with the appropriate amount of sandbag support both the saiga and the AR would have done better. I am sure that the more I can find a way to remove the human factor From the shots, the better. But how is that a real world scenario? If the shtf tomorrow and you had to use your rifles in a real world way, with no supports and sandbags, what could you expect?

 

I see shows on the military channel where sniper trainees regularly miss shots under 300 meters. Some even inside 100 meters! When I see that, I understand the results at the range. They are shooting in real combat scenarios and it makes you appreciate their accuracy even more. I plan to make it a point to shoot more like that from now on. The other thing to note is that they never shoot at small bulls eyes, but rather human upper body sized pieces of steel. That appears to be more the point of the modern sniper, to hit center mass, rather than threading a needle.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

http://www.snipershide.com/category/snipers-hide-online-training/

 

Practice correctly and you will arrive if your equipment is in good shape. It is the shooter that is most responsible and equipment second for good groups.

1911

[RobRez 1,895]

I would think it was not quite a good load for his rifle. Just because they were hand loaded does not mean they were the best. I had a DPMS AR-10 that could shoot 1" groups easily from a bench with just plain old Federal blue box soft point ammo. Some "Special hunting loads" that cost 3x as much would not shoot as good.

I can never get my Saiga .308 to shoot that well, maybe 2 1/2" @ 100 yds with iron sights and old eyes.

That said, for some reason, I sold my AR-1-0 and kept the Saiga.

I just enjoy the Saiga more.

Nothing special about the AR-10 I had, just factory set up, crappy trigger and all.

[dmac27 17]

Back when I actually had disposable income (Good Lord I do miss those days) I had a Savage FXP10LE Rifle with a Leupold Scope that I could consistently make 5 shot groups with that you could cover with a quarter of sandbags. I am sure someone that is a better shooter than me could have had far better results. And I know its not apples to apples because mine was a .308 bolt gun...but man was it accurate.

[josephcapps 0]

Ok i'm no expert but i have shot alot of guns in my life, from .22 to .50, and its been my finding that most guns will shoot better than i can. Just because u have a gun that can shoot 1 moa or less does not mean that you can. There are many factors that come in to play when shooting for tight groups. Do you have a solid rest that removes you from being a factor, shooting off hand and other less than ideal positions can tell you how good of a shot you are but not how good the rifile is. What kind of ammo do you have, good factory stuff, your own made with love hand loads or some mil surp that you have now idea where it comes from, how it was stored, or who was in charge of quality control. So before you say the gun is bad you need to look at how and what you are shooting.

[meauxcg 0]

 

Red Jacket Firearms custom Saiga .308, Special Design by none other than MOJO himself.

 

Saiga .308 conversion with MOJO secret trigger job, railed fore-grip, surefire G2, Aimpoint comp M2, Ergo Grip and standard fixed stock.

 

Accuracy is as good as my AR, notice the 4, yes, 4 shot group.

[Mephis 82]

If that was 100 yards with an M2, godly eyes you have sir!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

What I have found with the 308 vs the 223 is simple flinch.

Anticipating the recoil is not a myth its a real issue in high power shooting.

Unless you are actively working to reduce flinch it WILL affect you, just the way our brains are wired.

[RobRez 1,895]

What I have found with the 308 vs the 223 is simple flinch.

Anticipating the recoil is not a myth its a real issue in high power shooting.

Unless you are actively working to reduce flinch it WILL affect you, just the way our brains are wired.

 

I agree 100% with that! I find the best path to improved shooting is attention to detail and repetition. Shooting 100 or more rounds every once in a while is not going to do as much for you as shooting 20 rounds 3 times a week.

When I lived on the family ranch I would shoot 18 rounds through my .44mag pistol every day, and the results were great! I became very familiar with the noise, recoil and blast of the gun until shooting it was second nature. I have applied that method to other firearms I have and it makes a world of difference in accuracy!

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Anticipating the recoil is not a myth its a real issue in high power shooting.

It gets really hard when your shooting some of IndyArms "hot" .50 BMG rounds.

 

I shoot 3" 12ga pretty regularly without issue, and 6 rounds from that left a bruise.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

For the record though, His benevolence holding out on letting me shoot his ammo, I will do it again.

[SOPMOD 254]

A friend and I went to the range today. I took my 22 S308 and he took a customized AR10 with free float barrel and a 10 x 42 leupold with custom hand loads made just for his rifle. We both tried shooting clovers from the 100 meter mark to absolutely no avail. I could accept not doing "one hole" with my S308, but when we could not do this with a $3500 + AR setup, it has led me to now call the constant claims of fantastic accuracy as pure B.S.! I am not pointing fingers or telling anyone directly that I think they are full of it. If you and your rifle can really shoot clovers or the amazing single hole, great for you and your claim. So, if you really can do the above, please post indisputable video proof, because I need to see it to believe it.

 

BTY, the best group we managed was about 2.5 inches with the AR and 3 with the S308. All shots were made from a sitting position with bipod support.

 

It's all about trigger time my man. You need to sight in and pull that trigger about 40,000 times if you want to be anywhere close to a crack shot.Even dry firing while sighting in on distant targets and being aware of what you are doing that is causing your sight to shift even on a barely perceptible level can be helpful.Like Nailbomb I too can pull off 2-3" groups standing and slung tight with either my 7.62 or 308 Saigas. Maybe you should start with some basic marksmanship training, find an appleseed shoot near you and get some trigger time with somebody who knows what they are doing right beside you coaching you and helping you eliminate bad habits.Also those 308s are expensive to shoot, you should invest in a 22lr with good sights that approximate the optics or sights you plan to use on your primary centerfire rifle and get your trigger time that way on the cheap.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Yes anyone not been to at least one appleseed (two or more is better) should go !

If you have a 22LR semi-auto you can use that just as well to save on the 308 costs.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

.22LR is certainly the cheapest option for basic marksmanship practice, but I do most of my shooting with 7.62x39; a lot more similar to .308, (so's the rifle), and it's still cheap enough... helluva lot more fun, too.