Am I the only one here who hates the concept of "Less than lethal&

[Cryogaijin 33]

In recent conversations with my co-minions at work, several people have expressed interest in heading out to the gun range and getting the basics of gun safety and marksmanship from me. They've also expressed an interest in getting a defensive weapon, but only "less than lethal" defensive weapons.

 

Now I'm fairly knowledgeable about the subject, and I pointed out that some "less than lethal" weapons are actually more likely to kill your target than popping 'em with a handgun (Tranq guns are notorious for this.) I further explain that in a defensive situation where a civil suit crops up against the defensive shooter, they are generally in for MUCH larger liability if the person survives than if they are killed in the commission of their crime.

 

Generally the people that get this far in the conversation suddenly have a kneejerk "he must not know WTF he is talking about" at about this point. Is the concept so hard? I mean this is up here in Alaska, not California or soviet nauJerzistan.

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

Maybe you should point out that dead men don't get to tell their side of the story.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If i was in one of the remote parts up there I doubt I would be even calling to report it.

[RobRez 1,895]

I don't agree with the "less than Lethal" idea. If you feel the need to get the gun, you need to be prepared to use it! There has always been a less than lethal option, and they call it "Fighting"

Man the F**k up and punch the bastard!

Oh yeah, the other "Less than Lethal" option.....Good running shoes!!!

Edited June 16, 2011 by RobRez

[pony_express1973 183]

I'm friends with a few state police men here in Pa and they told me if you are going to pull your gun be prepared to shoot and if you are going to shoot then SHOOT TO KILL and that's the motto I live by

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

cryo, you are right. their thinking is flawed. as we know it's all about the response / force necessary to control the situation. in ones favor .

i work in some really bad neighborhoods . i carried even before it was legal in my state.

at times i carry high quality pepper spray. it's a good option against idiot juveniles and for places where i cannot carry firearms. over the years iv'e used spray twice. on one occasion it was wasn't even necessary to use it. just showing it changed their mind.

[zenman223 460]

Ive been thinking about getting a taser for awhile now, just as an option to add to my vehicle along with my handgun. I carry almost everywhere and If I ever have to pull my weapon I will shoot to KILL, without question.

That said.... Theres been a time or 2 i sure wish I'd had a tazer on me b/c I didnt need to kill the person but sure would have tazed the shit out of em!!!!

[CJS3 3]

Ive been thinking about getting a taser for awhile now, just as an option to add to my vehicle along with my handgun. I carry almost everywhere and If I ever have to pull my weapon I will shoot to KILL, without question.

That said.... Theres been a time or 2 i sure wish I'd had a tazer on me b/c I didnt need to kill the person but sure would have tazed the shit out of em!!!!

 

I've seen too many videos of cops tazering a suspect, just to have him fight off the effects and require several police officers to subdue him. The tazer only works as long as the current is on. How long before the assailant is on your ass, beating the crap out of you for tazing him? He won't stop until your head is a bloody pulp. Shoot to kill, and your first, and only words, when giving your statement is "I was in fear for my life".

[Arik 565]

I knew a guy in philly who used the "less then lethal" approach when 2 local armed thugs stormed into his apartment. It was a 4ft long crobar. In court the 2 thugs had broken arms, legs and ribs. Judge laughed and dismissed all charges against the guy. But I guess it might depand on what you did and the judge.

[Koljec 37]

In recent conversations with my co-minions at work, several people have expressed interest in heading out to the gun range and getting the basics of gun safety and marksmanship from me. They've also expressed an interest in getting a defensive weapon, but only "less than lethal" defensive weapons.

 

Now I'm fairly knowledgeable about the subject, and I pointed out that some "less than lethal" weapons are actually more likely to kill your target than popping 'em with a handgun (Tranq guns are notorious for this.) I further explain that in a defensive situation where a civil suit crops up against the defensive shooter, they are generally in for MUCH larger liability if the person survives than if they are killed in the commission of their crime.

 

Generally the people that get this far in the conversation suddenly have a kneejerk "he must not know WTF he is talking about" at about this point. Is the concept so hard? I mean this is up here in Alaska, not California or soviet nauJerzistan.

 

I looked into less than lethal options for the home defense gun. Why? Because I don't really want to have a kill on my sleeve when its time to cross the pearly gates. But after reading up on less than lethal options, I dismissed them. If a motherFer is breaking into my house, I want him dead, not beanbagged.

[ktcm7271 999]

I bought some rubber buck shot at a gun show, and a retired cop came over and asked why I bought them, I told him for home defense, the first 2 would be rubber, then the next 3 would be double ought. He said the 3rd pull of that trigger would constitute intent to kill to a liberal lawyer or judge and to throw out the rubber and make one shot count with lead. I gave the rubber to a co-worker.

[MCurtis762 10]

+1 to RobRez.

 

Tasers aren't appropriate for self defense. They are intended for subduing a non-compliant offender.

 

IF you manage to get both prongs in the guy, be careful that you don't get tangled up in the wires if he is coming at you. And you better have a way of restraining him after the Taser is turned off.

 

Pepper spray is also a no-go for self defense.

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

mcurtis762 have you ever been sprayed?

[DogMan 2,343]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could measure out a precise and predictable amount of force needed to stop a threat and not kill. You can't. That's a fallacy. "Lethal force" will many times be non-lethal, and "non-lethal" force will many times be ineffective. When your life is on the line you can't afford to dink around trying to find just the right balance.

[corbin 621]

So long as person sees fit to receive training in the various options out there, I feel the more options they have, the better. They need to understand what things will and will not do, however. In my younger days, I got to play around with various LTL while in the Army. As a person that's not only been shot with beanbags, tasered, hit with CS and pepper spray, as well as having being shot with lead from a 12 ga at point blank range, I can tell you.....there are so many variables out there that you can't say 100% if one thing will work, or won't. Yeah, a dozen slugs to the brain will pretty much do the trick, but that's assuming you can get it done without getting killed yourself.

 

A person can still hurt or kill you, even if they're blinded by pepper spray. If they have a knife, using pepper spray is a piss poor response, unless you follow it up with a more lethal option, if needed. If they're unarmed, then perhaps it might help distract them long enough for you to get away. Don't count on it though. Will a taser put you down? It did me each of the 3 times I was hit. I've seen a couple folks (one of whom was a badass lady from Israel) NOT go down though. They weren't unaffected, but they weren't down. They DID stop what they were doing however.

 

So, would I recommend a LTL round for home defense? Not generally, but if a person doesn't have a weapon, you probably shouldn't shoot them with a lethal load. If they're stupid (or drugged up) enough to try and fight you unarmed when you have a firearm, maybe a LTL round would dissuade them. They'd likely believe the round was a lethal one, at least for a moment. Being able to switch out rounds quickly would have to be a skill set that you have before trying to use LTL rounds, IMO.

 

Ultimately, like Dogman said.... it's your life on the line. Choose wisely.

 

Just the view from this particular soapbox. Your view my vary.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Corbin

[D.C.MORRISON 494]

corbin . i agree, there is no 100% solution. poor judgment and a taser cost these two men their lives. http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?rid=23920382&cat=3951354e01311858

 

as with firearms, accuracy is key with spray. in my limited experience with it . it worked beyond my expectations. everything has it's limitations. i never go in a tavern or to a festival without it.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

So long as person sees fit to receive training in the various options out there, I feel the more options they have, the better. They need to understand what things will and will not do, however. In my younger days, I got to play around with various LTL while in the Army. As a person that's not only been shot with beanbags, tasered, hit with CS and pepper spray, as well as having being shot with lead from a 12 ga at point blank range, I can tell you.....there are so many variables out there that you can't say 100% if one thing will work, or won't. Yeah, a dozen slugs to the brain will pretty much do the trick, but that's assuming you can get it done without getting killed yourself.

 

A person can still hurt or kill you, even if they're blinded by pepper spray. If they have a knife, using pepper spray is a piss poor response, unless you follow it up with a more lethal option, if needed. If they're unarmed, then perhaps it might help distract them long enough for you to get away. Don't count on it though. Will a taser put you down? It did me each of the 3 times I was hit. I've seen a couple folks (one of whom was a badass lady from Israel) NOT go down though. They weren't unaffected, but they weren't down. They DID stop what they were doing however.

 

So, would I recommend a LTL round for home defense? Not generally, but if a person doesn't have a weapon, you probably shouldn't shoot them with a lethal load. If they're stupid (or drugged up) enough to try and fight you unarmed when you have a firearm, maybe a LTL round would dissuade them. They'd likely believe the round was a lethal one, at least for a moment. Being able to switch out rounds quickly would have to be a skill set that you have before trying to use LTL rounds, IMO.

 

Ultimately, like Dogman said.... it's your life on the line. Choose wisely.

 

Just the view from this particular soapbox. Your view my vary.

 

I agree 100%. +1

 

I'm not against the concept of LTL weapons. There's numerous scenarios where it outweighs lethal force. But home defense is not one of those situations, IMO. I had a class in highschool; P.i.G. (Participation in Government). It was taught by the mayor. He told us, with no hesitation, "If someone breaks into your house, you're better off killing them. Less legal problems afterwards. If you "have" to kill them on your door's threshold....drag their body all the way inside before the cops get there". I always thought it was funny hearing that from a teacher, let alone, the mayor. But hey, it's true.

[MCurtis762 10]

mcurtis762 have you ever been sprayed?

 

By virtue of their genetics or previous exposure, some people aren't affected as much as others by pepper spray. I wouldn't feel secure knowing that my "less than lethal" defense was not 100% effective on 100% of people that may come through the door or that I might encounter on the street. It works wonders with most people but it only annoys others, especially if they are high on something. That being said, if you aren't able to carry a gun, spray is the next best alternative.

[Marrok857 51]

Iam all for less than lethal, only for police use in riots. If someone has the balls to bust into my home, and wake me from my beauty sleep hes gettin plugged. I dont care if I get tagged as a murderer by anyone, I would be protecting my home and its inhabitants. Iam sure I would have some form of guilt on my conscious, but who wouldnt?

 

I keep my Mosin Nagant loaded (bolt is always open and back) and my ruger 10/22 loaded.

 

Like Pool said, Dead men tell no tales.

[Marrok857 51]

mcurtis762 have you ever been sprayed?

 

By virtue of their genetics or previous exposure, some people aren't affected as much as others by pepper spray. I wouldn't feel secure knowing that my "less than lethal" defense was not 100% effective on 100% of people that may come through the door or that I might encounter on the street. It works wonders with most people but it only annoys others, especially if they are high on something. That being said, if you aren't able to carry a gun, spray is the next best alternative.

 

Sorry for double post, but that doesnt answer his question. Ive been hit with spray that drifted in the wind, that alone was enough for me to stop what I was doing (I was watching a friend get sprayed, the things teens do lol).

[magsite20 1,664]

In the simplest form less than lethal is called

 

a miss.

 

 

[MT Predator 2,294]

We had two Deputies shot and killed after the shooter was tased. The effects of it passed, he drew and killed them both. Later was rammed off the highway at the county line and met a hail of gunfire killing him. LTL may have its place with certain law enforcement situations but for home or self defense, I'll pass and stick with the stuff that puts them down for good.

[saltydecimator 482]

Ya, nothing is more annoying than hearing the stun gun noise at gunshows. Chaps me it do....

 

Never had a reason to use force against anyone. But I wouldn't totally discount them, another tool in the ole arsenal.

 

Black talons and buckshot for me thanks!

[SouthernOne 203]

Last year here in Georgia, a Superior court judge woke up in the middle of the night hearing voices in the house. He lives alone. He got up and met a guy coming down the stairs. One Castle Law shot to the chest took the burgular home. The judge was not using LTL .45 ACP. He and his fellow judges practice at the range on a regular basis. Welcome to Georgia.

[storm6490 2,768]

you work with hippies? teach them how to shoot and when the time comes, your unprepared neighbor now knows how to shoot.

[t3mac21 1]

Knowledgable on the subject eh? lol, who the fuck uses "tranq guns" for defense?

[Cryogaijin 33]

Knowledgable on the subject eh? lol, who the fuck uses "tranq guns" for defense?

No one, for the reasons I stated. My coworkers watched too many wildlife videos.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

"Mr. armed robber, what is your approximate weight in kilograms?"

[t3mac21 1]

Knowledgable on the subject eh? lol, who the fuck uses "tranq guns" for defense?

No one, for the reasons I stated. My coworkers watched too many wildlife videos.

 

 

Can you cite me an example of a "tranq gun" accidently killing an intruder? I mean, they're notorious for this.

[Cryogaijin 33]

Look at the post above yours. That is (one of) the reasons they AREN'T used. Next up would be that anesthesia takes longer to go into effect than a Hot Lead Injection. Finally the subjectivity of any "chemical." Consider that not everyone reacts the same.

 

So no, I can't give you an example of a tranquilizer gun killing an intruder, but I can provide you with a metric shitton of examples of professional, certified anesthesiologists doing so in perfectly controlled situations.