Siaga Twelve Barrel Length

[v8rx7guy 9]

So i have my saiga at the gunsmith shop right now. Im having the barrel cut down and having the monster brake attached the total length of the barrel will be 18.25 inches long. the monster brake is 5.8 inches long so the barrels length will be between 11-12.5 inches long and then when the brake is attached it will be 18.25 now i know im going to be running into some big issues.

 

It probly wont cycle right i was told to put six ports in the gas tube , but then i further investigated and heard that by doing this you could increase the chances of over gassing or possibly damaging something else in the shotgun. Im just wondering i would prefer to be able to shoot a range of ammo through my gun from 7 1/2 shot to slugs what do they do with the sbs saigas only shoot slugs and buck or something.. So confused. how do they make it work with the sbs versions? crazy to me. I was told it wont cycle light loads but does that mean that it wont cycle heavy loads? what are my options when shortening the barrel to this length?

Edited June 16, 2011 by V8rx7ShotgunGuy

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The gas block is very easy to remove and install IMO. I would start at 4 ports@ .080" and test it on the 2 setting with Federal bulk. Add 1 port at a time and test until it cycles to your liking. It is a lot of leg work and will consume some time, but you will likely wait spend more time waiting for someone else to get to it.

 

The above statement is under the assumption that you have already done friction reduction.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Actually, once that monster brake is on permanently, you can pretty much forget about doing anything substantive with the gas system. As far as the rest of the gun is concerned - EBW is correct about correct profiling and friction reduction work being done on the receiver side. The gun is an entire system - and everything needs to be in balance for the system to function correctly.

 

As for the information you are getting - I never cease to be amazed by the amount of misinformation and nonsense I see posted about this stuff. Unless the person advising you is a licensed gunsmith with a ton of experience in doing exactly this kind of work, they are just blowing smoke - because they simply don't have the experience or background to give you sound advice.

 

Cutting a barrel to ~ 13", and attaching a brake which not only affects back pressure, but recoil characteristics is NOT a DIY project - or an operation that can be legally undertaken by anyone but a 2 SOT, or should be attempted without all of the experience and expertise necessary to correctly configure and tune the gun to effectively function in this configuration.

 

I can count on one hand - with fingers to spare, the number of licensed qualified Saiga gunsmiths I know who can pull this off, and really get it right the first time. This is very important - because with this procedure, there are no do-overs.

 

If you just want the recoil reducing characteristics of the monster brake, it can be screwed on to the end of a standard 19" barrel, on a functioning gun.

 

Beyond that the best advice I can give you is to find someone who is licensed, qualified, will take the time, and has the expertise to get it right, and pay them their going rate to get it done.

 

Respectfully,

 

Mike Rogers

[rs51085 136]

Ok 1st off I am not a gunsmith but I have done exactly what you are doing. My barrel was cut down two 12.75" by a local smith and a moster brake was welded on and it cycles fine with bulk pack. Here is what I did to get it to cycle very reliably. Polished carrier and bolt and profile/ polish hammer. Reshaped the feed ramp and polished. Installed a jte competition hammer spring, md booster puck and plug. I did zero port work but my gun has 3 properly sized and aligned ports from the factory so that probably helped a lot. These guns will cycle pretty good down to about 13 inches from all the reserch that I have done.

 

I will have to say if you haven't done any polish/ reshapeing work and don't want to do a lot of test then work then retest you should probably get you gun from your smith and send it to someone like waffenschmied. Just my expirence and hope it helps.

Edited June 17, 2011 by rogers

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Ok 1st off I am not a gunsmith but I have done exactly what you are doing. My barrel was cut down two 12.75" by a local smith and a moster brake was welded on and it cycles fine with bulk pack. Here is what I did to get it to cycle very reliably. Polished carrier and bolt and profile/ polish hammer. Reshaped the feed ramp and polished. Installed a jte competition hammer spring, md booster puck and plug. I did zero port work but my gun has 3 properly sized and aligned ports from the factory so that probably helped a lot. These guns will cycle pretty good down to about 13 inches from all the reserch that I have done.

 

I will have to say if you haven't done any polish/ reshapeing work and don't want to do a lot of test then work then retest you should probably get you gun from your smith and send it to someone like waffenschmied. Just my expirence and hope it helps.

 

If your local smith actually cut the barrel down to 12.75" as measured from the closed bolt face and then fully and correctly threaded for that brake before it was welded in place, I strongly suggest you check the overall barrel length - because if the facts are as you have presented them - any way I do the math - if that brake was fully threaded onto the barrel - you have an SBS. I sincerely hope that if this is the case, you have applied for and received the appropriate NFA tax stamp,

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Mike,

The gas block can still be moved far enough forward to expose the ports at this length or am I mistaken? Hopefully, the gas block was relieved before all of this was done.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Mike,

The gas block can still be moved far enough forward to expose the ports at this length or am I mistaken? Hopefully, the gas block was relieved before all of this was done.

 

EBW - Trust me on this one. There is almost never a day that goes by that we don't have one or two of these in process on the benches. Once the brake is permanently affixed - for all intents and purposes - it is what it is. If the gunsmith doesn't get the whole build right the first time through - moving the gas block around after the fact and mucking with the ports isn't going to help much.

 

Having read the posts which proceeded this one - I think its worth mentioning again that this is NOT a DIY proposition, and appropriate licensing is required to do the work. While the S12 forum is a great place for information on conversions and Saiga 12 shotguns in general, this subject goes way beyond the scope of work a do it yourself-er, or even a non SOT gunsmith may lawfully perform.

 

I rather suspect at this point that more than one of our forum members may have attempted to do this mod themselves, to find themselves with problems they don't know how to fix, and very possibly legal issues as well.

 

Although I feel for them - once that barrel is cut below 18" - and work has been performed outside the law - there is absolutely nothing I can do for them, and no advice I can offer that will improve their situation.

[v8rx7guy 9]

Thanks for your feedback. Im going to get in contact with my gunsmith im not 100% positive he knows everything about the saigas.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by V8rx7ShotgunGuy

[rs51085 136]

Waffenschmied you are correct the barrel is actualy about an inch longer because the the brake does screw on about an inch so I guess my barrel was cut to about 13.75 because I am positive that the overall length is 18.5". The extra inch probably helps a little with cycling. Trust me if it wasn't legal I wouldn't be puting a pic of it up.

[Bvamp 604]

are you going to put a choke in it? that will fix any gas issues you may have.....adding a full choke to your cut 13" bbl. hell, if the barrel is spun straight, you might even be able to carefully CHANGE chokes in it....go figure....thats asking a lot though....

 

stick a full choke in there, screw drilling it.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Ben Vampatella

[lvjeffro 30]

Actually, once that monster brake is on permanently, you can pretty much forget about doing anything substantive with the gas system. As far as the rest of the gun is concerned - EBW is correct about correct profiling and friction reduction work being done on the receiver side. The gun is an entire system - and everything needs to be in balance for the system to function correctly.

 

As for the information you are getting - I never cease to be amazed by the amount of misinformation and nonsense I see posted about this stuff. Unless the person advising you is a licensed gunsmith with a ton of experience in doing exactly this kind of work, they are just blowing smoke - because they simply don't have the experience or background to give you sound advice.

 

Cutting a barrel to ~ 13", and attaching a brake which not only affects back pressure, but recoil characteristics is NOT a DIY project - or an operation that can be legally undertaken by anyone but a 2 SOT, or should be attempted without all of the experience and expertise necessary to correctly configure and tune the gun to effectively function in this configuration.

 

I can count on one hand - with fingers to spare, the number of licensed qualified Saiga gunsmiths I know who can pull this off, and really get it right the first time. This is very important - because with this procedure, there are no do-overs.

 

If you just want the recoil reducing characteristics of the monster brake, it can be screwed on to the end of a standard 19" barrel, on a functioning gun.

 

Beyond that the best advice I can give you is to find someone who is licensed, qualified, will take the time, and has the expertise to get it right, and pay them their going rate to get it done.

 

Respectfully,

 

MMike Rogers

 

I dont know mike, but I can think of quite a few gunsmiths that could get this right the first time, they are well known and highly repsected in this arena. So, unless your 1 hand has alot of fingers, that statement, to me, is misleading.

 

tony rumore (tromix)

jack travers (JTE)

robert (R&R)

Mike(lone star)

will (red jacket)

jim fullar (rifle dynamics)

tom cole (CGW)

keith (tac-47)

Matt (C&S)

 

If i missed anyone, I apologize!!!

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Actually, once that monster brake is on permanently, you can pretty much forget about doing anything substantive with the gas system. As far as the rest of the gun is concerned - EBW is correct about correct profiling and friction reduction work being done on the receiver side. The gun is an entire system - and everything needs to be in balance for the system to function correctly.

 

As for the information you are getting - I never cease to be amazed by the amount of misinformation and nonsense I see posted about this stuff. Unless the person advising you is a licensed gunsmith with a ton of experience in doing exactly this kind of work, they are just blowing smoke - because they simply don't have the experience or background to give you sound advice.

 

Cutting a barrel to ~ 13", and attaching a brake which not only affects back pressure, but recoil characteristics is NOT a DIY project - or an operation that can be legally undertaken by anyone but a 2 SOT, or should be attempted without all of the experience and expertise necessary to correctly configure and tune the gun to effectively function in this configuration.

 

I can count on one hand - with fingers to spare, the number of licensed qualified Saiga gunsmiths I know who can pull this off, and really get it right the first time. This is very important - because with this procedure, there are no do-overs.

 

If you just want the recoil reducing characteristics of the monster brake, it can be screwed on to the end of a standard 19" barrel, on a functioning gun.

 

Beyond that the best advice I can give you is to find someone who is licensed, qualified, will take the time, and has the expertise to get it right, and pay them their going rate to get it done.

 

Respectfully,

 

MMike Rogers

 

I dont know mike, but I can think of quite a few gunsmiths that could get this right the first time, they are well known and highly repsected in this arena. So, unless your 1 hand has alot of fingers, that statement, to me, is misleading.

 

tony rumore (tromix)

jack travers (JTE)

robert (R&R)

Mike(lone star)

will (red jacket)

jim fullar (rifle dynamics)

tom cole (CGW)

keith (tac-47)

Matt (C&S)

 

If i missed anyone, I apologize!!!

 

Please let me be absolutely clear. For this particular modification - the number of qualified and licensed Saiga gunsmiths I am certain can put your gun up on the bench, and do all of the required work without initial experimentation, or extensive range work, are no more and no less than I have stated.

 

There is no 2 SOT on your list that I would hesitate to contact about doing the work. Not for a minute. All of the shops on your list are top notch, and I don't believe any of the shops you have listed would bullshit you, or take your money without being completely up front about what they are prepared to do, or not to do.

[lvjeffro 30]

Please let me be absolutely clear. For this particular modification - the number of qualified and licensed Saiga gunsmiths I am certain can put your gun up on the bench, and do all of the required work without initial experimentation, or extensive range work, are no more and no less than I have stated.

 

There is no 2 SOT on your list that I would hesitate to contact about doing the work. Not for a minute. All of the shops on your list are top notch, and I don't believe any of the shops you have listed would bullshit you, or take your money without being completely up front about what they are prepared to do, or not to do.

 

Did you just pull an Obamanation on me Mike...LOL...J/K

 

 

Well, I feel that any of the gunsmiths I listed would be able to accomplish the task without much or any trouble, but I am not a gunsmith so I could be way off base...I will leave it at that...

Edited June 18, 2011 by lvjeffro

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Please let me be absolutely clear. For this particular modification - the number of qualified and licensed Saiga gunsmiths I am certain can put your gun up on the bench, and do all of the required work without initial experimentation, or extensive range work, are no more and no less than I have stated.

 

There is no 2 SOT on your list that I would hesitate to contact about doing the work. Not for a minute. All of the shops on your list are top notch, and I don't believe any of the shops you have listed would bullshit you, or take your money without being completely up front about what they are prepared to do, or not to do.

 

Did you just pull an Obamanation on me Mike...LOL...J/K

 

 

Well, I feel that any of the gunsmiths I listed would be able to accomplish the task without much or any trouble, but I am not a gunsmith so I could be way off base...I will leave it at that...

 

Lol!!! Nah, when I say "let me be clear, it just means "let me be clear, so there are no misunderstandings". When the President says "let me be clear", it almost always means "hold on to your ankles".

[lvjeffro 30]

Please let me be absolutely clear. For this particular modification - the number of qualified and licensed Saiga gunsmiths I am certain can put your gun up on the bench, and do all of the required work without initial experimentation, or extensive range work, are no more and no less than I have stated.

 

There is no 2 SOT on your list that I would hesitate to contact about doing the work. Not for a minute. All of the shops on your list are top notch, and I don't believe any of the shops you have listed would bullshit you, or take your money without being completely up front about what they are prepared to do, or not to do.

 

Did you just pull an Obamanation on me Mike...LOL...J/K

 

 

Well, I feel that any of the gunsmiths I listed would be able to accomplish the task without much or any trouble, but I am not a gunsmith so I could be way off base...I will leave it at that...

 

Lol!!! Nah, when I say "let me be clear, it just means "let me be clear, so there are no misunderstandings". When the President says "let me be clear", it almost always means "hold on to your ankles".

 

Too true buddy, too true...

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

"Well, I feel that any of the gunsmiths I listed would be able to accomplish the task without much or any trouble, but I am not a gunsmith so I could be way off base...I will leave it at that..."

 

Jeff,

 

You're right. I should have phrased that statement differently. So lets just get that out of the way. The point was and is, that done correctly this is not an easy, or simple mod, or one that can be lawfully undertaken by anyone other than a 2 SOT, and certainly not any of us pop out of the womb with an inborn ability to throw the gun on the bench and do this mod cold.

 

I was speaking specifically to the work of guys I am personally familiar with, who HAVE done this mod, and especially from my own personal experience.

 

Rogers' fairly extraordinary and positive experience notwithstanding, getting these installations right takes time, direct experience with the part and procedure, and expertise. I am also confident that every gunsmith you have mentioned above is fully capable of taking the project on.

 

I still have the first monster brake I ever installed, not because the installation went so well, but because I fucked up and silver soldered it on (absolutely permanent and irreversible), before I realized that the gas block I had just finished so carefully fitting and aligning - was now sitting on the bench next to me.

 

I had to cut that brake off along with a 3/8" length of barrel, and that gun became an instant SBS build. It turned out to be an awesome gun, the basis for a new model - and was used as my personal shooter and for demos until I sold it a few months later on a gun site. I have done many, many monster brake installations since - and every time I do one, I the keep that first monster brake out where I can see it on my bench to remind me just how permanent that installation is.

 

This is that gun, post SBS modification:

 

 

I'll see if I can find few minutes to take a photo of that first monster brake tomorrow, and post a pic in this thread.

 

Here's the monster brake I keep around as a reminder >>>

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Please let me be absolutely clear. For this particular modification - the number of qualified and licensed Saiga gunsmiths I am certain can put your gun up on the bench, and do all of the required work without initial experimentation, or extensive range work, are no more and no less than I have stated.

 

There is no 2 SOT on your list that I would hesitate to contact about doing the work. Not for a minute. All of the shops on your list are top notch, and I don't believe any of the shops you have listed would bullshit you, or take your money without being completely up front about what they are prepared to do, or not to do.

 

Did you just pull an Obamanation on me Mike...LOL...J/K

 

 

Well, I feel that any of the gunsmiths I listed would be able to accomplish the task without much or any trouble, but I am not a gunsmith so I could be way off base...I will leave it at that...

 

I have seen some truly shitty work come from two of the shops on your list (I will not name them, so do not ask.... not even via email or PM). Having said that, it will be a cold day in hell when I send something else out. Not that they are not capable of good work, or the others are not capable of good work, but I have trust issues now. 2 out of 2 times sending something out I was pissed and wasn't far from a heart attack the second time.... seriously. It was so bad that the wife agreed to my purchasing a lathe, mill, and hydraulic press when I can set aside the money. I will take my chances on my own and if I screw the weapon up, at least I didn't wait forever to find out and have to pay someone else to do it.

Edited June 20, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Well, it sounds like you trusted some 'smiths you shouldn't have, evl. Sucks, but I don't think buying all that shop equipment and doing all the work yourself is truly necessary if you go with the right shop. Of course, if you've got enough other work to do with those machines, it might make more sense.

 

The only guy other than me who's worked on my S-12 is Mike at Lone Star Arms, and I've nothing but praise for his turn-around time, communication and general CS, and craftsmanship.

 

ymmv, (and apparently has).

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Well, it sounds like you trusted some 'smiths you shouldn't have, evl. Sucks, but I don't think buying all that shop equipment and doing all the work yourself is truly necessary if you go with the right shop. Of course, if you've got enough other work to do with those machines, it might make more sense.

 

The only guy other than me who's worked on my S-12 is Mike at Lone Star Arms, and I've nothing but praise for his turn-around time, communication and general CS, and craftsmanship.

 

ymmv, (and apparently has).

LOL! Yes, MMV.

 

There are all sorts of other things that I could do with the equipment as well. I have a few product ideas that I would like to try too. It would be nice to just go to the shop and do whatever I want when I want it done instead of packing it up, getting a MO, sending it out, crossing my fingers, waiting, and hoping for good results only to be pissed when I see what I paid for. My bad experiences have made me realize that just because someone does something and makes a good living, it doesn't make them good at it. I think than many just do whatever and hope that you will not notice, or they don't even notice themselves and think the stuff is fine.

 

On a side note, Mike is absolutely a detail oriented builder and he is on the short list of only 2 builders that I would send something to if I didn't possess the skillset and determination to do it myself. I have had a fairly lengthy conversation with Mike and he has "it". What it takes to be a fine craftsman.

Edited June 20, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[loner42 6]

Having read the posts which proceeded this one - I think its worth mentioning again that this is NOT a DIY proposition, and appropriate licensing is required to do the work. While the S12 forum is a great place for information on conversions and Saiga 12 shotguns in general, this subject goes way beyond the scope of work a do it yourself-er, or even a non SOT gunsmith may lawfully perform

 

Are you saying that no one other than a 2SOT holder can legally perform the above mentioned work , if they are an experienced individual in metal fab / machinework and gunsmithing and are modifying their own personal SBS , doing all the barrel work with the barrel OUT of the receiver, and do not install the barrel back into the receiver for any testing or experimenting until after they have their tax stamp for the SBS ?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Well, there is always more that one way to skin a cat. Generally and theoretically speaking, an individual with a tax stamp for a specific serial number and barrel length can lawfully shorten the barrel to the length specified on the form one or form four application, once the tax stamp is actually in hand.

 

I have never heard of anyone using a tax stamp to go from an SBS to a non NFA length gun >18", but procedurally - I suppose it is well within the realm of possibility.

 

If you are really determined, and want to go either route - I suggest you give ATF NFA branch a call, and speak with one of their technical specialists to make sure you are on solid ground.

 

Best of luck to you!

 

Mike

[loner42 6]

Mike, I guess you misunderstood me. I meant building an SBS only ( 10" ), and on one specific gun with the stipulated specs on the form 1. I would think an individual should be able to do all this while waiting for the stamp as long as the barrel was not in the receiver at any time until the stamp is in hand.

Does that sound kosher ?

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Mike, I guess you misunderstood me. I meant building an SBS only ( 10" ), and on one specific gun with the stipulated specs on the form 1. I would think an individual should be able to do all this while waiting for the stamp as long as the barrel was not in the receiver at any time until the stamp is in hand.

Does that sound kosher ?

 

Man, I wouldn't split hairs with it, and would advise that you don't do this under any circumstances. And this is why... Depending upon how you look at it, a cut barrel separate from a matching receiver without a tax stamp in hand could spell "constructive intent" to an eager beaver looking to put a notch on his/her belt. I will leave it at that.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

http://www.atf.gov/f...s-shotguns.html

 

Q: May a FFL or an individual legally possess the parts to manufacture an SBR or SBS as long as no firearms are actually assembled?

A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms. A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm.

 

Edited June 20, 2011 by KevinInNM

[Paulyski 2,227]

http://www.atf.gov/f...s-shotguns.html

 

Q: May a FFL or an individual legally possess the parts to manufacture an SBR or SBS as long as no firearms are actually assembled?

A FFL (Type-7 or Type-10) who pays the Special Occupational Tax (SOT) may possess parts required to assemble NFA firearms. A non-licensee or FFL who has not paid the SOT is required to register any NFA firearm via an ATF Form 1 (5320.1) prior to acquisition of the parts required to assemble such firearm.

 

Well I guess anybody with a shotgun & a hacksaw's going to jail.

 

Many people have pulled their barrels, added attachments permanately & then re-installed their barrels.

 

Can anybody post examples of anybody going to jail for it?

 

ETA;

If you really want to be ultra-safe, before the barrel's cut, put the receiver at your folks house & don't retrieve it until the brake is attached for 18", or until one has a tax stamp.

 

However on a saiga enlarging the gas block's hole will be hard with the block on the gun.

 

A carbide burr on a pneumatic die grinder & a steady hand will help with that if you have to go bigger once the brake's on there for good.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Well I guess anybody with a shotgun & a hacksaw's going to jail.

 

Many people have pulled their barrels, added attachments permanately & then re-installed their barrels.

 

Can anybody post examples of anybody going to jail for it?

 

Maybe not, but they technically could be charged with some pretty heinous shit. Who wants to be "the example"?

 

To my knowledge, no one's been convicted of violating 922r and jailed for it either, but is it really worth taking the chance?

 

I think not.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Well I guess anybody with a shotgun & a hacksaw's going to jail.

 

Many people have pulled their barrels, added attachments permanately & then re-installed their barrels.

 

Can anybody post examples of anybody going to jail for it?

 

Maybe not, but they technically could be charged with some pretty heinous shit. Who wants to be "the example"?

 

To my knowledge, no one's been convicted of violating 922r and jailed for it either, but is it really worth taking the chance?

 

I think not.

I currently stand with a lathe large enough to fit a gun on to my left, a chop saw behind me, a hack saw to my right, a dewalt angle grinder at my 7-o'clock.

That's not the half of it.

 

I own 3 shotguns & they all occasionally make it into my shop.

 

If you honestly believe that I can go to jail for that, it's about time for you to bury your guns & all patriots to dig theirs up.

 

ETA;

 

And no.

I have no intention of shortening any of their barrels.

I'd lose muzzle velocity & accuracy.

I personally see very little practical use for short shotguns for myself.

 

If I ever need to do close work, I always have a Sig on my hip & I can have it on target & unloading one hell of a lot faster than a bulky SBS.

Edited June 20, 2011 by PauIy

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I guess I should have been more specific and taken your first line "Well I guess anybody with a shotgun & a hacksaw's going to jail" out of what I quoted.

 

This is what I was referring to as technically illegal, (without paying the SOT as a 7/10 FFL): "Many people have pulled their barrels, added attachments permanately & then re-installed their barrels."

 

Do I agree with that law? Hell no. I think the entire NFA, (and the "follow-up" gun control laws), should be repealed as unconstitutional and the BATFE abolished.

 

While the current system exists though, I'm not gonna risk catching a federal case just to save a little time and $.

 

ymmv.

Edited June 21, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[loner42 6]

Thanks Mike and all others who chimed in. Guess I'll contact them and see about getting something in writing before going forward with it.............

[csmw 98]

Guess I'll contact them and see about getting something in writing before going forward with it.............

 

Why?

If you have possession of a shotgun and a matching sawed-off bbl, you are in possession of a sawed-off shotgun.

 

Get caught? Doubtful.

Against Federal law? Yes.

Serious crime w/ havy consequenses? Yes.

Prosecutable? Yes.

 

Why take any chances?

Just my .02