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Ammo That Will Not Deform


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Is there any ammo that I can load in a mag and keep the mag loaded in my S12 that will not deform after a long length of time?

 

I would like to keep my weapon loaded for a home defense weapon but the top round always flattens out a bit and wont chamber after just a few days.

 

My bolt is not polished and I am not going to polish my bolt either because my weapon runs 100% even on the dreaded Winchester cheap stuff.

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Good slugs or 00buck have longer and stronger "brass" than bird shot, and you don't wantto use low power crap for home defense anyway. I got some Remington bulk 00 from walmart the other day for like $10 for 15 rounds. Would work well.

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I use S&B and have no problems with it. I just have one less round in the mag that is already chambered in the weapon. Less pressure on the rounds and you don't have to dick around with charging the weapon when you need it. Yes, I keep one in the chamber. I think an unloaded weapon is just as good as a baseball bat.

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I have to agree wholeheartedly with storm. An empty gun is absolutely useless, and one with an empty chamber even with a full mag, except using the procedure I do, isn't far behind. ALL of my guns, except my S-12 are "hot", that is, with a full mag and one in the chamber. Keeping a live round in the chamber of an S-12 with the mag downloaded by one, and a slug as first one up provides instant use if surprised by an assailant or intruder. Flipping the safety off can be done while bringing the gun into play, and doesn't cause the delay involved with the fumbling involved in a highly stressful situation cycling the bolt, which delays deploying the gun.

 

That being said, I do it a little different myself, but only with my S-12. I have a notch cut into the safety selector which the charging handle fits into with the bolt back. I keep a full mag in the gun, with the bolt locked back in the notch in the safety selector. It's simple and quick to flip the safety selector down while deploying the gun, which chambers a round and disengages the safety. My top mag rounds don't become deformed this way, and feed reliably, and the gun is quick to deploy and ready for use immediately. Even if the bolt is accidentally released from jarring the gun hard, chambering a live round, the safety is still engaged unless the safety selector is REALLY pushed down hard, not likely if the gun is just dropped or banged into something hard. All of my other guns have full mags with one in the chamber and safety engaged.

 

Boy Scout motto: "BE PREPARED".

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I have always kept Federal Powershock OOO buck in mine. Basically 8 9mm pellets in that one, high brass. Every month or so I will rotate the rounds and make sure they will cycle on a full mag and empty chamber. I have kids in the house so I don't feel comfortable with a loaded chamber and the bolt racked back. I have not noticed any major deformation. the top round will flatten out a bit so just make sure you rack all the way back and let the spring do the work. other than that like I said I just rotate the rounds around in the magazine

 

J

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I would like to keep my weapon loaded for a home defense weapon but the top round always flattens out a bit and wont chamber after just a few days.

 

As you'll note in this thread, the "standard answer" is to use a slug resting against the bolt.

 

I don't like this answer - because if I need a follow up shot, I'm shooting a slug. I don't want to shoot slugs through walls in my home.

 

My solution was to notch the safety lever to act as a bolt stop. I leave the gun unchambered, with the bolt locked into the safety lever (the built in bolt stop is not engaged).

 

If I need it, I grab the gun and throw the safety - the gun chambers itself and I'm ready to go. The only faster procedure would be to leave it chambered, and off safe. Not advisable, even if you're in a trench.. and this way, my ammo choices aren't dictated to me.

 

When you make the notch, plan to err towards the rear of the safety - meaning, start your notch there and grind it out forward until it just catches the charging handle when it is all the way back. This will make sure there is enough spring force to chamber a round.

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I would like to keep my weapon loaded for a home defense weapon but the top round always flattens out a bit and wont chamber after just a few days.

 

As you'll note in this thread, the "standard answer" is to use a slug resting against the bolt.

 

I don't like this answer - because if I need a follow up shot, I'm shooting a slug. I don't want to shoot slugs through walls in my home.

 

My solution was to notch the safety lever to act as a bolt stop. I leave the gun unchambered, with the bolt locked into the safety lever (the built in bolt stop is not engaged).

 

If I need it, I grab the gun and throw the safety - the gun chambers itself and I'm ready to go. The only faster procedure would be to leave it chambered, and off safe. Not advisable, even if you're in a trench.. and this way, my ammo choices aren't dictated to me.

 

When you make the notch, plan to err towards the rear of the safety - meaning, start your notch there and grind it out forward until it just catches the charging handle when it is all the way back. This will make sure there is enough spring force to chamber a round.

 

you made this safety switch notch yourself? seems like a nice DIY project. what tools did you use? a picture would be nice. rolleyes.gif

 

 

My S12 is always loaded with one in the chamber and safety on. no deformation of shells.

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you made this safety switch notch yourself? seems like a nice DIY project. what tools did you use? a picture would be nice. rolleyes.gif

 

My S12 is always loaded with one in the chamber and safety on. no deformation of shells.

 

I used a dremel for the major grinding, and a small file to square it up. Pretty easy to do.

 

I'm with family in NYfor the summer and my S12 isn't one of the guns I brought with me since it isn't in a NY-legal configuration anymore, so I can't get you guys a pic but the Krebs notched switch is very similar, if not exactly the same.

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Wouldnt it just be easier to use the Krebs safety lever, or does it not allow for enough room to strip a round off?

2359807.JPG

 

That looks almost exactly like the one I made, except my notch might be a bit further back. I think this safety would work the same though.. I'd wager that it will strip a round fine.. maybe not with the full gusto of the spring though.

 

If you don't mind spending the money and waiting a few days for it to show up at your door, or if you don't have a dremel and file set, this is probably a good way to go. It took me maybe 15 minutes to make mine and re-black it with a sharpie, though.. and I prefer to do things myself when I can.

 

I didn't even remove my safety from the gun when I notched it. I just stripped the gun down, taped over the action to prevent filings from getting inside and went to work. Made it real easy to drop the bolt carrier back in to test function.

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Two slugs on top is good to go if you must leave the mag in the gun. Or try to find some steel cased OO buck Russian ammo. I think some was imported. 13 OO buck at 1000 fps or so. I experimented with some different OO buck loads with plastic cases and they all deformed within a week.

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I just keep a full mag in the gun and the bolt locked back. All I need to bring the gun into action is to pull back and drop the bolt. not sure if that's an acceptable way to do it, but nothing bad seems to have happened so far. dunno.gif

Edited by AtlSaiga
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I just keep a full mag in the gun and the bolt locked back. All I need to bring the gun into action is to pull back and drop the bolt. not sure if that's an acceptable way to do it, but nothing bad seems to have happened so far. dunno.gif

 

There isn't anything "bad" about this method, except that it requires two different techniques to learn the gun.

 

You need to have a chambered weapon, safety on - and practice shouldering it, and working the safety to fire. You also need to practice a drill for shouldering an unchambered weapon and working the bolt.

 

Then, in the middle of the night - when you are groggy and scared as you face an intruder, you need to make sure you perform the correct drill.

 

This is preferrable to my way of thinking, over using slugs or foreign ammo of uncertain quality as a HD round, but it requires more training. The bolt stop safety mod eliminates that by providing one simple way to ready your weapon: take the safety off.

 

If you don't do drills like that.. then it doesn't really matter how you keep your gun.

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Two slugs on top is good to go if you must leave the mag in the gun. Or try to find some steel cased OO buck Russian ammo. I think some was imported. 13 OO buck at 1000 fps or so. I experimented with some different OO buck loads with plastic cases and they all deformed within a week.

 

Slugs don't make good HD rounds. They penetrate intruders and walls with plenty of energy left over that can do much damage. If you have other people in your house with you, or live in an apartment - you are endangering them with slugs.

 

Odd ball steel cased ammo doesn't make a good HD round either.

 

The golden rule for ANY ammo you intend to stake your life on is to shoot a LOT of it through your gun to make sure it is 100% reliable in your individual gun. That means the ammo should be priced normally (not expensive speciality rounds) and readily available so that you can afford to run 1000 rounds through your gun to make sure it works every time.

 

I know a guy that was keeping a mag full of .40 S&W glaser rounds in his handgun for HD. At the $16 for 6 rounds or whatever he was paying for that stuff, he never put more than a few rounds through his gun just to test POI. In time, he picked up a Remington 870 for HD and decided to let the glasers rip into some pumpkins just for fun. First round fired, but FTL the next round. He was staking his life on a single shot pistol and didn't even know it.

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There isn't anything "bad" about this method, except that it requires two different techniques to learn the gun.

 

You need to have a chambered weapon, safety on - and practice shouldering it, and working the safety to fire. You also need to practice a drill for shouldering an unchambered weapon and working the bolt.

 

Then, in the middle of the night - when you are groggy and scared as you face an intruder, you need to make sure you perform the correct drill.

 

This is preferrable to my way of thinking, over using slugs or foreign ammo of uncertain quality as a HD round, but it requires more training. The bolt stop safety mod eliminates that by providing one simple way to ready your weapon: take the safety off.

 

If you don't do drills like that.. then it doesn't really matter how you keep your gun.

 

 

I actually don't keep the safety "on," so the only thing I have to do is pull back on the charging handle to release the stop, and then just let go to drop the bolt. one motion that I practice, so I guess I'm ready for those zombies.

 

and actually the house alarm is on 24/7, so a baddie can't get the drop on me. I have a solid 20-30 seconds before they get to the bedroom door - and that's if they sprint at full speed from whatever door/window directly to my room. Since they don't know the layout/floorplan, they wouldn't be able to sprint directly to my room, buying me even more time. All while the siren is blaring.

 

to the OP, sorry for the hijack.

Edited by AtlSaiga
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Two slugs on top is good to go if you must leave the mag in the gun. Or try to find some steel cased OO buck Russian ammo. I think some was imported. 13 OO buck at 1000 fps or so. I experimented with some different OO buck loads with plastic cases and they all deformed within a week.

 

Slugs don't make good HD rounds. They penetrate intruders and walls with plenty of energy left over that can do much damage. If you have other people in your house with you, or live in an apartment - you are endangering them with slugs.

 

Odd ball steel cased ammo doesn't make a good HD round either.

 

The golden rule for ANY ammo you intend to stake your life on is to shoot a LOT of it through your gun to make sure it is 100% reliable in your individual gun. That means the ammo should be priced normally (not expensive speciality rounds) and readily available so that you can afford to run 1000 rounds through your gun to make sure it works every time.

 

I know a guy that was keeping a mag full of .40 S&W glaser rounds in his handgun for HD. At the $16 for 6 rounds or whatever he was paying for that stuff, he never put more than a few rounds through his gun just to test POI. In time, he picked up a Remington 870 for HD and decided to let the glasers rip into some pumpkins just for fun. First round fired, but FTL the next round. He was staking his life on a single shot pistol and didn't even know it.

 

Notice I said if you MUST keep a loaded mag in the gun. As you said concerning the Glaser ammo, the gun must function or it is useless. A shotgun with slugs is a lot better than a shotgun jammed with deformed ammo. My experiments showed badly deformed ammo that would not feed. In fact one load with a roll crimp had the top wad come out with the shot loose in the gun. Jammed right away. I just keep the mag handy, close to the gun and loaded with OO buck. A handgun is first up for home defense, shotgun a backup.

The steel ammo is what the Russians issue their military so I would say it will work for home defense. After all, its being used in a Russian gun.

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Notice I said if you MUST keep a loaded mag in the gun. As you said concerning the Glaser ammo, the gun must function or it is useless. A shotgun with slugs is a lot better than a shotgun jammed with deformed ammo. My experiments showed badly deformed ammo that would not feed. In fact one load with a roll crimp had the top wad come out with the shot loose in the gun. Jammed right away. I just keep the mag handy, close to the gun and loaded with OO buck. A handgun is first up for home defense, shotgun a backup.

The steel ammo is what the Russians issue their military so I would say it will work for home defense. After all, its being used in a Russian gun.

 

Well naturally if the only choice is between deformed buckshot and non-deformed slugs - the only option is the slugs. But that still doesn't make slugs the best choice for HD. And it isn't the only choice.. there are other choices. You can mod the gun in a few different ways - extensively reprofile the bolt, or notch the safety. You can just run it with the bolt locked back and a mag in as another poster here does.

 

The steel ammo may be what the Russian military uses, I don't know. But even still. So what? You still need to TEST it. Are you sure that the Russian steel cased sold to civvies isn't from bad batches that their military rejected? Willing to stake your life on it? That is the point of the glaser story - no matter what ammo you choose, you must put many rounds through the gun. Your gun may have a slight burr that can catch on a hard steel case and make steel ammo less reliable than soft plastic shells that the burr can easily gouge on the way into the chamber.

 

You don't know until you've put a 1000 rounds of it or so though your gun and counted failures. Got a source for a 1000 rounds of Russian steel cased shotshells? I just went looking and couldn't find any for sale. I did find a few forum posts from people who had some of this 'rare stuff' and were inquiring as to its value. It isn't common enough in the states to get a bunch to train with and verify function in your gun though. That means it isn't an HD round.

 

Staking your life on a weapon is a serious affair. There is no room for speculation, hunches or apathy. You must test every aspect of your gun and ammo very well.

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I actually don't keep the safety "on," so the only thing I have to do is pull back on the charging handle to release the stop, and then just let go to drop the bolt. one motion that I practice, so I guess I'm ready for those zombies.

 

and actually the house alarm is on 24/7, so a baddie can't get the drop on me. I have a solid 20-30 seconds before they get to the bedroom door - and that's if they sprint at full speed from whatever door/window directly to my room. Since they don't know the layout/floorplan, they wouldn't be able to sprint directly to my room, buying me even more time. All while the siren is blaring.

 

to the OP, sorry for the hijack.

 

I understand what you need to do to ready your gun. You can't have the safety fully on with the bolt back, actually.. but it will engage. My point was that you now need to train snapping the bolt, shouldering and firing a round to the target quickly, along with whatever other drills you practice.

 

The house alarm system is fine and all.. but home invasions usually happen when you're awake and the alarm is likely to be off. The common thief isn't going touch your house if your car is in the driveway.

Edited by sickness
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If I lock the bolt back on my shotty and just bump the stock against the floor, the bolt will go forward, loading a shell while I am still grabbing the weapon by the barrel picking it up.

 

Far too dangerous for me.

 

I keep a round in the chamber, and the second shot is a Silver Bear #7 1/2 steel cased bird shot. Will not deform no matter how long the shotty sits.

 

Third shot and after is buck.

 

I use a autoplug so I dont have to worry about what gas setting I am on.

 

Its the best setup I have found personally.

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If I lock the bolt back on my shotty and just bump the stock against the floor, the bolt will go forward, loading a shell while I am still grabbing the weapon by the barrel picking it up.

 

Far too dangerous for me.

 

I keep a round in the chamber, and the second shot is a Silver Bear #7 1/2 steel cased bird shot. Will not deform no matter how long the shotty sits.

 

Third shot and after is buck.

 

I use a autoplug so I dont have to worry about what gas setting I am on.

 

Its the best setup I have found personally.

 

Yeah, that is one nice thing about using the safety as a bolt stop - it is much more difficult for the bolt to slam home by bumping it. It won't say it can't happen, but with the built in bolt stop it doesn't take much at all. Using the safety lever, I need to hit my gun several times before the bolt slams.. and even then, it just pushes the safety down enough for the bolt to come home - but the safety is still engaged so the hammer can't trip.

 

Really, if we are to be brutally honest - all of these things that have been mentioned in this thread so far are the bad points of the S12 and there really are NO solid 100% solutions. Using waster rounds in your HD gun is one kludgy solution, notching the safety lever is another.

 

Maybe the best solution is to reprofile the bolt until it won't deform the rounds - but I have a feeling that will make the bolt too weak.

 

For myself, I refuse to have my ammo choice dictated to me. I refuse to fire birdshot when I should be firing buck and I refuse to fire slugs in my home and endanger my daughter more than she needs to be in that circumstance. I'd buy a pump or even use a handgun than run my S12 that way, personally.

 

Everyone's threat models and circumstances are different though.. if I lived alone and didn't have closed neighbors - I'd rock my S12 with alternating slugs and buckshot and keep it chambered.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wouldnt it just be easier to use the Krebs safety lever, or does it not allow for enough room to strip a round off?

2359807.JPG

 

That looks almost exactly like the one I made, except my notch might be a bit further back. I think this safety would work the same though.. I'd wager that it will strip a round fine.. maybe not with the full gusto of the spring though.

 

If you don't mind spending the money and waiting a few days for it to show up at your door, or if you don't have a dremel and file set, this is probably a good way to go. It took me maybe 15 minutes to make mine and re-black it with a sharpie, though.. and I prefer to do things myself when I can.

 

I didn't even remove my safety from the gun when I notched it. I just stripped the gun down, taped over the action to prevent filings from getting inside and went to work. Made it real easy to drop the bolt carrier back in to test function.

 

 

I put the Krebs safety lever on my S12. It is a very well made item. However, the notch is only for holding the bolt to the rear for loading or inspection it seems. The front of the notch is curved in to a hook like shape. Try as I might, I am unable to close the bolt by simply pressing down on any part of it. You have to pull back on the charging handle while disengaging the safety.

 

I like the part a lot despite this as this was not the reason I bought it. It is designed to be easy to move the safety up and down with your trigger finger and not have to take your hand off the grip or reach over the weapon with your off hand. It works VERY well for this. :super:

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OK thanks for all the input.

 

Winchester Ranger 00 does deform in an AGP mag.

 

I will pick up some 2 3/4 slugs and try a slug for my top round and see how that goes...that seems like a pretty good idea

 

its been my experience that slugs deform even more than buckshot rounds. agp mags tend to really force the front of the round into the bolt, and with the slugs i had there is no material to reinforce the structure of the round.

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OK thanks for all the input.

 

Winchester Ranger 00 does deform in an AGP mag.

 

I will pick up some 2 3/4 slugs and try a slug for my top round and see how that goes...that seems like a pretty good idea

 

its been my experience that slugs deform even more than buckshot rounds. agp mags tend to really force the front of the round into the bolt, and with the slugs i had there is no material to reinforce the structure of the round.

 

 

Would it be possible to "reinforce" a 12GA round? I am not a reloading guy, however, maybe a steel tube could be inserted inside of the 12GA round, and loaded with buck shot or your personal choice. I was thinking a tube that goes all the way into the brass and up to the top of the plastic, maybe I'll start a thread on this topic.

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