mikey1 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 (edited) I shot?? the Saiga 20 in competion this weekend. The 10 round(see DINZAG post.) mag was not immune. I had nothing but massive jams with the low velocity 2 3/4" ammo. (gas port on #2) All mags are 20x70. (GOT LOTS of ribbing about Russian "junk" from the 12 gauge 1100 Rem. boys, They said I should "oil" the gun and I replyed that I had done that BUT maybe I should toss some "dirt" into the gun and it would work!!! HA, HA. ) Most were 90 degree stovepipes w/spent shell wedged into the bolt. The 20 is a recent purchase and completly stock, in like new condition with about 250 rounds thru it. I will be cutting the barrel to 19" most likely. Even if I do not, what gas port size have you found to give the best reliability? BTW, NO PROBLEMS with the 20 gauge knocking down the "steel". (I would have shot my 12 guage but lack enough mags) I have looked in the fourm and some/most? people are using .86" gas port size?. I'm not having any feeding problems (70mm) mags, and feel the problem is the port size w/ the low vel. ammo? I have "polished the bolt", polished the feed ramps, etc. After the "match" I shot 2 boxes thru the gun..same problems. Thanks,in advance... mikey1 Edited July 10, 2005 by mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 mine will shoot most of the super cheap low velocity shells but i still use the winchester aa super sport shells. they are low brass but hi velocity. run about $4.50 a box. they have always worked in my 20 with zero problems. black box, says 1300 fps on the top. 7 1/2 or 8 shot. great, thats all we need is some more remington lovin pricks talkin trash about our "better russian made" stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I have about others having jamming issues when using other than three inch shells and/or trying to fully load a ten round mag. Most comment with three inch shells and nine rounds the shotties are very reliable. I have a new Saiga .410 and several new ten rounders with the counters but have not tried it out yet. For that matter I haven't bought ammo yet. When i do it will be the longer shells and nine rounds to start. if she runs flawless then I try the other variations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 Wolverine, In this case it is not the mags. The 20x70 mags are made to take only the 2 3/4" shells. The rounds are getting into the gun...they just arn't coming out. TWGLADF, I have some of those. I was hoping to get the gun to function 100% with the low velocity rounds. I had little if any suggnificant muzzle rise with the low velocity ammo...I was able to keep the sight on the next "plate" very nicely. The 20 guage could be the "cat's meow" for these speed shoots? Thanks, mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 UPDATE..... FYI, I used my AK 47 barrel removal set-up on the Saiga 20 (12 ton press & trunion holder).I removed the gas block. The 3 gas ports were about .072 and angled to the rear about 45 degrees. I drilled them to .086. BUT I WONDER if I found PART of the original source of the ejection problem when I decided to clean the gas piston?? It did not move front to rear very freely but WAS NOT stuck and had a little amount of "crud" inbetween the piston grooves.( I remembered that I can always hear the piston move in my 12 guage when tilting the gun back and forth) I never heard the piston move in the 20??? Well nothing lost as I was probably going to shorten the barrel anyhow and would have to enlarge the ports then. (I will repost if anyone wants to know the outcome? ) A quick tip, I removed the brass front sight and put a 6x48 tapped, small red fiber optic tube on the 20 ("Truglo"#TG954AR) ($4). Drill the brass sight out with a #33 bit and tap it 6x48. (use some red locktite on the threads) MUCH improvement!!! mikey 1 P.S. IF the gun works better ?? I'll slip the red dot scope and mount on ...I can hear the REM boys now!!! It was kind of funny...their guns had some problems too.(not as bad as mine) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 (edited) mikey1, I'd think cleaning the piston and opening the port sizes would fix the problem. Let us know... Yeah, the piston should just fall right out. My gas port size is stock. I stripped and cleaned my S-20 when I got it. It was pretty clean though. Mine will shoot the low velocity stuff on #2 all day. Mine's a 19" by the way. I've got close to 400 rounds through it now...slugs and low velocity. Can you post a pic of the front sight mounted? Sounds pretty cool, but you cannot talk of such things without the required porn. Haha! Edited July 11, 2005 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 (edited) "pics" are a problem. I'm not much with the computer. I think the pics are too large and/or I do not know what I'm doing ???. I've got the compress box marked , "zipped"?? the the folder but when I tried to post the pic of the 12 ga. mag I modified for the Saiga and a pistol buttstock it was still too big, it said and would not accept it??? BUT I can e-mail pics...???? SO, I am lost. I don't know what it takes to post a pic on this site??. The sight is about a 10 min. job(if you have the tap).File the brass one flat,center punch, drill & tap.(Take the selector plug out) mikey1 Edited July 11, 2005 by mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 (edited) This is what I do... Click browse and pick the file (.jpg) Click Add This Attachment Click Add into Post It will add something like attachmentid=xxxx in brackets. You are allowed 500kb (1/2 meg) per post. I tried to post .bmp files before and they didn't work. I do know .jpg files will work though. (Probably .gif too) Give it a shot - maybe it's something else... Also let us know how it shoots! *Edit - did some research & seen you used .jpeg...maybe drop the "e"??? also one may have been too big and killed the whole post... Edited July 11, 2005 by dinzag Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MadDog 3 Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Sure here is the fix: Get a polishing wheel and compond for your dremmel. Take the top cover off the gun and cycle the action. Note the area where the bolt hits the hammer face when you pull back the bolt. This is the area that needs to be polished. After you polish the hammer face and the bottom of the bolt to a mirror smooth finish the gun will take less force to work the action. This will cure the problem of the bolt not traveling far enough to the rear to eject the empty case. I have cured a Saiga-12 and a Saiga-20 that both had stove-pipe jams with this fix...MadDog Please let us know how this "fix" works for you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
well2160 42 Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I've been haveing the stovepipe problem and I'll be giving this remedy a try soon. I've tried 1oz loads and that didn't help so I'll let ya all know how this does for me. Nothing more frustrating than a jaming gun especially one as fun as the S20. Thanks for the idea I'll post when I get it done and tested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Well, I'll try the polishing idea. Enlarging the gas ports did absolutely nothing, same jams???. I've bought some Hi-velocity rounds, will try that as well. The spent rounds are stuck at 90 degrees in the gun and another new round is trying to make it's way into the chamber.... this may point out why the polishing works? I'm wondering about the recoil springs...maybe too much for the 20?? The springs look the same for the 12 and the 20..I will do do some checking. Thanks for the input. mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
well2160 42 Posted July 22, 2005 Report Share Posted July 22, 2005 (edited) I polished the hammer and two places on the bolt where it rubs on the hammer. I would say it's about 40% better. I made it through a whole 5rnd mag with out a single FTE. The test wasn't that great as I only ran 25 rnds through it. I came home and cleaned the heck out of it and worked the action over and over to hopefully help with the "break in". Hopefully with some more heavier ammo through it I'll get more improvement. I looked at my dad's 410 and the recoil spring looks the same on it too. Some where on the forum I think I read about a guy taking a few turns off his spring and it solved the jaming prob. I'm a little leary about doing that at this point for fear of it being too soft after break in. I do leave the bolt locked open when storing it for what ever miniscule amount of good that does. Anyone else have thoughts on triming the spring? Edited July 22, 2005 by well2160 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 FYI... I'm following up the original "post" on "jamming" w/low vel. loads. I have polished the hammer and other related parts,as suggested...BUT.. I believe the MAIN problem lies with the recoil spring system, ie... by polishing the hammer etc. lots of friction is reduced, I agree. I am shooting only in competion and do not use the Saiga 20 for anyother purpose than that. The weapon must function 100%. On 7/19/05 I shot several boxs of these Hi Vel. shells with NO MALFUNCTIONS as fast as I could pull the trigger(both 5 rd. and 10 rd. mags) WIN."Super Speed" WHS207(7 1/2 shot x 1275 FPS) & WIN. AAS207 (7 1/2 shot x 1300 FPS.). I inserted several low vel rounds (WIN or FED 1200FPS x 71/2 shot) and had the exact same "jams" as before. I'm going to play with a spare AK 47 spring and see if I can make the 20 reliaible?("tune" the gun for low vel. rounds.) I know ,....why not just shoot the HI-VEL loads?????, if the gun works? Well it's the "competion" thing, if my compeditors are shooting 12 guage guns and the 20 will get the job done I should have an advantage?? + I am somewhat curious by nature?. mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
well2160 42 Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Mikey 1, Please let me know how your spring experiment works out. I might have to follow suit and buy an extra spring. Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted July 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 (edited) MOE info.. "tuning" any of the recoil springs for any of the Saiga guns (2 piece springs) should be pretty easy. Simply, pull the front spring off and substitute a COLT .45 spring. I went digging in my Colt auto spring box and found they are the same i.d. The stock Saiga spring is .047 wire, I substituted a Wolff 12# progressive (.045 wire) which is also about 2 coils shorter. While I have not shot the 20 guage since I discovered this...one of these Colt springs will WORK! Most gunsmith's have these springs. I will not post till after I have shot again. Low Velocity,ejection perfection is the goal!. mikey1 Edited July 27, 2005 by mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted August 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 (edited) GOOD NEWS, I went to the range today with a few different "Colt" .45 auto recoil springs... and 2 boxs of LOW vel. shells. NOT ONE jam(20x70) mags!, I used all of these on the Saiga front spring location (Saiga,removed,relaced by Colt,rear Saiga spring in place) 8#,9#,10#,11#,12#(Springs are rated in pounds). (I did not see any difference in regular /or/varible spring style)I feel the 11#/12# worked the best. I THINK I was correct.... too much Saiga spring pressure = jams on low vel. ammo. If you know anyone who shoots/works on Colt autos, they will have some of these springs. Even though I DID open the gas ports to .086, I don't think that it even made a difference/improvement with my jamming problems.. Try it, you should have the same success I did for about $5. You will still have your Saiga front spring if you don't get the same results that I did.mikey1 Edited August 9, 2005 by mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Good idea mikey1 - if it works out it would save removal of gas block and opening up the gas ports. That's cool - I may give something like that a shot with my 410. Every once in a while it doesn't have enough juice to get the round all the way out. Only does it with 2 1/2" winchesters - all my barnaul (2 3/4"?) and plastic 3" work fine. Maybe 1 in every 10 rounds or so. I haven't had any problems with my S-20 though. Are the #'s you listed poundages of springs or just #'s? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikey1 0 Posted August 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Good idea mikey1 - if it works out it would save removal of gas block and opening up the gas ports. That's cool - I may give something like that a shot with my 410. Every once in a while it doesn't have enough juice to get the round all the way out. Only does it with 2 1/2" winchesters - all my barnaul (2 3/4"?) and plastic 3" work fine. Maybe 1 in every 10 rounds or so. I haven't had any problems with my S-20 though. Are the #'s you listed poundages of springs or just #'s? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> See modified post.mikey1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
well2160 42 Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Mikey, Thanks for testing and passing on the info. I'll have to get my hands on one of those springs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dezertdweller 0 Posted September 2, 2005 Report Share Posted September 2, 2005 For the Jamming issues I had when I first bought my 20 I switched to 1 oz shot and havent jammed since the only feed problems I ever had was when the spent shell got stuck on the way out Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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