Jump to content

Front or Rear mount Rail, and which one?


Recommended Posts

I am a new Saiga 12 owner as of last week. Im pretty anxious to get a sight so I started looking into rails... I saw the chaos and the UTG front mount Quad rails that seem to be of decent (read: solid for a good amount of rounds). /then I saw the rear mount top rail or optional side and top rail. (listed below)

Then I read about how the UTG and Chaos (or utg only at least...? idk) could over time distort the barrel by solidly connecting the gas chamber to the barrel. ( yes I am aware that there is a connecting peice at the end of the gas chamber already...

So the pro/con to me seems to favor the rear mounts (please correct me if i am blatantly wrong, I could be.

 

 

Front mount w/ top extension:

Pro: Tons of options, Flashlight/laser mount etc... front vertical grip solid...

Con: Expensive, Potential barrel damage, heavy, kinda mall ninja excessive (would prefer a top/bottom only rail option) Russia doesnt make them, must be a reason... mounts to the "shaky-est" part of the gun which could be bad for calibrated scopes/dots etc...

 

Rear mount, with possibly side rail, and further possibly a bolt on the bottom of factory front grip rail (picatinny) :

Pro: Cheaper (~50-70 opposed to ~100+) russia makes some and there is a mount for it... seems solid, mont damage anything, mounts to a less shaky part

con: no top front mount? oh well. Could be too far back for red dot maybe? (i wouldn't know)

 

I found some here... any other solid/better recommendations?http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-147/AK47-SIDE-LOW-PROFILE/Detail

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1075/AK47-Saiga-Scope-Mount/Detail

 

I also have a few questions about compatibility...

Will the rear mount interfere or make a conversion uncomfortable/awkward or impossible?

Will it block the dust cover removal? (a non issue with the quick release models)

Is it too far back for a decent scope or red dot?

Will the chaos/UTG really damage my barrel?

Is the rear mount really straight and mount straight each time if removed (I read about one on amazon that is so far off that one cannot zero some scopes correctly.)

Would bolting something like a Picatinny to the front grip be solid enough for a front grip, flashlight, laser, all 3?

 

Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I did some more searching... I guess I missed the part where most quality sights have a mount built in... and they are all quick disconnect. that solves a lot.

 

So now the question is... Which one should I get?

I have a saiga 12. Its gotta take the recoil.

I will be using it for target/fun/plinking, and probably "hunting" whatever I can find on friends/relatives private large lands (be it deer rabbit duck whatever)

My budget is around $150. If decent quality is found at $70 ill take it. If there is significant utility to push to 200 or 250 please justify it with reviews.

 

Sorry about the long winded original post. Im pretty sure Im going rear-mounted sight by now, thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mount wise it depends on what you are mounting. You'll want a rail mounted way back like if you are using a scope, this is what the side rail is designed to do where as a quad rail will be to far forward (there are exceptions like the Titan). If using a red dot, forward is usually better, but you can get away with it mounted just about anywhere. A side mount rail attachment or a some other basic top rail system is going to be simpler and less likely to affect the performance of your weapon, and simpler is usually better...but not always as awesome looking.

 

Optic wise most scopes or red dots specifically made for shotguns should work, otherwise top high end quality optics like EOTech and Aimpoint are proven to work well with Saiga 12s. None of those are really Russian style side mount optics though, you'd have to buy the mount separately. As to which of the AK style ones built onto the sidemount style attachment work, I'll leave that for others here as I'm working with an EOTech myself...expensive, but I had no doubts about whether it would work or not.

Edited by fauxknight
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

so a red dot could be mounted anywhere? even at the front of a front top rail? but a scope has to be mounted closer to where the eye will be, correct?

Also, has anyone actually damaged a barrel or anything by putting 1000's of rounds through a S12 with the chaos or UTG front quad rail?

 

Im not too interested in anything beyond some sort of sight.

Maybe a flashlight for HD when the sight is off,

Maybe a bottom mount laser for kicks.

Maybe a fleshlight attachment to tell zombies to eat pu55y! 027.gif

 

Main focus is a sight/mount or sight with built in mount.

 

I assume the russian sights built on top of mounts are probably higher quality and more expensive than even my budget (250 tops) correct?

And I imagine a $150 shotgun sight would do just fine on a $50 rear mount.

 

Is there a superior rear mount sight in the 30-60 range?

Is there a superior scope/red dot value at around $80-$150?

 

I know its sort of a "point and shoot" but i'd really like to work on some sort of range.

 

and thanks for the input, seriously anything at this point will help. I hardly know jack sh!t about guns, except paintball rolleyes.gif. I kinda just added this to my hobbies.

Link to post
Share on other sites

BP02 is an excellent side rail mount that you can add a red dot to. It can be found at Kalinka, just google them and look in the AK side mount section. Primary Arms makes a great Aimpoint style red dot for around $100, the two together will make a great combo and run you less than $200.

 

This is an Aimpoint but you get the idea of what it will look like.

 

Tac47ZenS12Aimpoint02.JPG

 

 

Yes technically you can mount a red dot anywhere because they don't have eye relief like a magnified optic. Many people run red dots on AK's and mount them over the gas tube way forward, they work fine this way or closer to your eye like the BP02. It comes down to preference more than technical reasons IMO.

 

 

 

For Russian built optics about the cheapest you'll find is the PK-A for $179ish. They are fine optics but not the best you can get, IMO Rakurs is probably the highest quality non magnified optic the Russians make but they are pricey (about $400) at Kalinka. Check the optics thread, I've put a few pics up of various Russian stuff and you can see Rakurs and PK-A there. I've got my Rakurs zeroed for slugs at 100 yards and it works very well against mansize targets while still letting me shoot clays. Once you get them dialed in red dot's work great on S12's.

 

 

 

Z

Link to post
Share on other sites

That Kalinka side rail mount looks a lot nicer than the UTG I had.

 

Scopes get mounted toward the back due to eye relief, which is how close you need your eye to be to the scope to use it properly. Because of 12g recoil you don't want to be too close to the scope, fortunalely because its a 12g you don't need a high magnification either, so low magnification long eye relief scopes might have an eye relief around 5" which should be more than enough.

 

I always thought red dots were preferred forward due to parallax. Basically low magnification optics like red dots, and particulalry those in the lower price ranges, allow the dot or reticle to appear to move as you change viewing angles, which makes it very hard to line up a precise shot. Since zero magnification red dots tend to have unlimited eye relief (you can be as far away as you want) keeping it farther forward gives you a more consistent viewing angle and improves accuracy in the same manner as a longer sight radius does. The more expensive models are less prone to this effect and can be mounted further back without negatively impacting accuracy. By personal experiance I know I had a cheap Sig mini red dot that came free with a gun and the dot was all over the place, where as the reticle on the EOTech I bought for my Saiga 12 doesn't wander at all.

Edited by fauxknight
Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't seen parallax as a factor in the red dot's I've used, T-1, Konus Atomic Pro and a bunch of Russian red dot's. I agree it can be a problem but for whatever reason I haven't noticed it, the dots I've used over the years all seem to stay on target even though head position changes. I figured that most modern red dots are parallax free but I don't have a lot of experience with low end models, or really that many Western versions either.

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Link to post
Share on other sites

Im pretty much sold on the BP-02, in the low profile flavor... I assume that TZ-ZEN is using the low profile variant and not the original "high rise". Also, does a folding stock clear/fold flush to the side or does it fold the other way? (It look like it folds towards the bp-02 mount) I will be doing the conversion eventually, but for now I have a stock s12 and I want to proceed without any regrets/setbacks later.

 

thanks for the Primary Arms red dot recommendation. Until that I thought I was stuck spending 300+ for EOtech or Aimpoint...

 

And is a red dot good enough for hunting or somewhat long distance aiming like 100-300 yards tops? If it will work (since this is a 12gauge...) at those distances accurately, It might just be worth it for the aimpoint (youtube vids def make the aimpoint look worth the price). Or am i better off with a 1x-7x ish scope for the longer distances?

 

I guess russian optics are out of the question for now.

 

Again, Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes my BP02 is a low rise mount, I definitely prefer that over the high rise. Side folders generally close on the left and with an optic mounted they can't latch or stay secure...so it's either fold or have an optic but not both. Not really a disadvantage if you think about it, side rail optics generally return to zero when mounted and dismounted, plus if you are using the optic the stock will be open anyway.

 

 

My Rakurs is zeroed at 100 yards for slugs and it works great...but 300 yards for a shotgun is not going to happen, it's not a rifle. I probably wouldn't shoot 100 yards with slugs when hunting either, it will be pretty hard to score a clean kill IMO because they just aren't that accurate.

 

 

Z

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...