txapacheguy 1 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) I will start with the obligatory gun pron... The last of my parts came in a few days ago from CSS and MississippiAutoArms. Talk about a bunch of good guys and gals!!! Here is the parts list on the gun. Tapco Collapsible Stock Hogue Grip (installed after photo was taken) Tromix DIY Triggerguard Tromix/Tapco modded FCG with Shepherd's Crook V-Plug E-tac Twister Puck UTG 4-rail Handguard (U.S. Made version) Phoenix flash hider/door breach muzzle attachment Promag 20 Round Drum and 10 Round Magazine I have already identified the UTG rail, the E-tac puck, and the Promag 20 round mag as potential problems here... Ammunition: Federal bulk pack 7 1/2 birdshot and a box of Independence #8 Shot Polishing, fitting, and other preparation: NONE Results: I took the weapon up to a local shooting area with a friend this morning, stuck a 20 round drum in it, and was not surprised to find that I have built a really expensive single-shot weapon. The troubleshooting process began. I adjusted the V-Plug to every conceivable setting and some that probably should not be used. The shotgun still failed to eject. I replaced the E-tac piston with the factory piston. Still failed to eject. I emptied the 20 round drum and tried the 10 round magazine. The shotgun ejected almost every round and fed the next round perfectly as long as I did not try to fire the weapon too quickly. This is obviously a step in the right direction!!! The factory four round magazine also performed almost flawlessly. My conclusion: As a complete and total noob to this type of shotgun, I have done a lot of reading on this board and other forums/websites. I have read about guys having problems similar to mine with the UTG rail. I have also read that the E-tac twister puck causes FTE in some weapons. Additionally, I know that the spring tension on a 20 round drum presses the round a bit tighter to the bolt and carrier mechanism than a 4 or 10 round mag would. I do realize that it may take 200-300 rounds to break in the gun, and I have only fired about 100 rounds through it. It was also probably a bit under-lubricated today. The next step: I want this gun to eat cheap ammo from a 20 round drum like its going out of style... The glassbolt conversion on here looks like a good way to go, and if I cannot get things going on my own, I will certainly be going this route. The next few things I am looking at include purchasing a reduced power recoil spring, and a high performance gas piston from one of the usual suppliers. I will probably take a Dremel polishing wheel to some of the normal areas on my bolt and carrier in an attempt to smooth them a bit. If these steps do not correct the issue, I will most likely remove at least the top portion of the UTG rail, and then the entire rail, if necessary. Since the weapon has only had about 100 rounds put through it, the results to this point are not especially discouraging, but I am anxious to get the kinks worked out as soon as possible(never know when a Zombie outbreak might occur). I hope that this account of my experience to this point is useful to anyone trying to to outfit a new shotgun. DO YOUR HOMEWORK BEFORE YOU BUY A BUNCH OF PARTS! I am looking for feedback, constructive criticism, and any wisdom that will help me get this shotgun working better and/or sooner. Thanks in advance!!! Edited July 2, 2011 by txapacheguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fromxtor 20 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 The factory mag is a 5 rounder, so that may be why your tension is alot higher than the 10 round mag. Have your looked to see how many gas ports your have and how big they are? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 I did notice that the factory mag would hold five rounds, but for some reason thought that four was what it was designed for... There are four gas ports on the gun. It appears that a 1/16 drill bit might easily fit in the holes, but a 5/64" drill bit will either be a bit close, or perhaps not fit. Good question!!! I neglected to add that to my list of things to correct if necessary. I am really not looking forward to having to remove that gas block!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Splat 28 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) I'm just curious...did you fire the thing stock out of the box before you started to change parts or did you get the upgrade bug right off the bat and start swapping things out based on readings here? She is very purddy by the way. Edited July 2, 2011 by Splat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) I'm just curious...did you fire the thing stock out of the box before you started to change parts or did you get the upgrade bug right off the bat and start swapping things out based on readings here? She is very purddy by the way. Thanks!!! I did all the modifications before firing it. I questioned the wisdom of said decision, but it came down to lack of time before the parts came in basically. Besides, I figured that with so many modifications in store for it, I would be dealing with a new set of internal parts to break in once complete and potentially a completely different set of engineering challenges. It also allowed me the luxury of a nice clean gun when I was working on it. Edited July 3, 2011 by txapacheguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Get rid of all the extra crap on it until you know how it cycles with the factory parts. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) Good lookin shotgun! That said, I recommend removing the Etac "Twister Puc" and the Tapco stock. The Etac is a POS that will likely end up getting deformed after a few hundred high-brass shells. I'd reinstall the factory puck or get a US-made copy if 922r compliance is an issue; e.g. a MD Arms or Tromix puck. The Tapco stock is functional, but look at its funky downward angle, (and cheekweld), relative to the receiver. If you want to use a quality adjustable stock on a Saiga; I recommend something like the CAA AK tube with a Magpul MOE stock. Or, for a bit more coin, you could use one of ACE's AK adapter blocks with an Enidine Shot Stock, (and the MOE or several different mil-spec adjustable stocks), and vastly reduce the recoil. I have a Monster Brake on my S-12, so I just use a DPH skeleton stock on her, but I'm putting an Enidine with a Magpul CTR on my S-308. Edited July 3, 2011 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper14.5 84 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Good lookin shotgun! That said, I recommend removing the Etac "Twister Puc" and the Tapco stock. The Etac is a POS that will likely end up getting deformed after a few hundred high-brass shells. I'd reinstall the factory puck or get a US-made copy if 922r compliance is an issue; e.g. a MD Arms or Tromix puck. The Tapco stock is functional, but look at its funky downward angle, (and cheekweld), relative to the receiver. If you want to use a quality adjustable stock on a Saiga; I recommend something like the CAA AK tube with a Magpul MOE stock. Or, for a bit more coin, you could use one of ACE's AK adapter blocks with an Enidine Shot Stock, (and the MOE or several different mil-spec adjustable stocks), and vastly reduce the recoil. I have a Monster Brake on my S-12, so I just use a DPH skeleton stock on her, but I'm putting an Enidine with a Magpul CTR on my S-308. +1 The enidine is amazing. Then if your like me you go and stick a recoil pad on top of it and you can then shoot hundreds of rounds without noticing, whether they be high brass or low brass. And I have a monster brake too......... Somone remind me what recoil feels like lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Splat 28 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Get rid of all the extra crap on it until you know how it cycles with the factory parts. Yeah that is why I asked...lol. I'm farilly new to the SA-12 myself but with all the reading I was doing here while it was enroute to me I knew that I had to shoot it out of the box before I even thought about doing the conversion. I read several horror stories of people buying one and upgrading the hell out of it without shooting a single shell and then it doesn't function right, FTF and FTE and the lot. Hard to troubleshoot when you have a dozen new parts instead of just a factory gun out of the box. Post why you not like the Tapco stock? I just put mine thru the conversion with a T6 adjustable....just curious, if feels great to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Nothing wrong with the T-6 if you like it. The rest of the gun looks good too, I'm just saying it's better to put the original parts back in the gas system before trying to troubleshoot it and find out why it's not cycling. I can pretty much tell you the biggest reason without even looking at it though. The biggest difference you will see in a newly converted gun, (IF using an average US made FCG) is the hammer sits too high and really robs power from your action. Send me the FCG and the bolt and carrier, and you will no longer have that problem. As long as your gas ports are at least mostly clear, the service I provide on the moving parts will make the gun run much better. With 4 ports the gun should be cycling decent ammo.... even Federal 1200 FPS multi purpose loads. I also recommend going back to your original puck and try it with the factory 5 rd mag. If after making that swap, it's still not ejecting, the bolt, carrier, and FCG would be the next course of action. Do that before screwing around with booster pucks, after market gas plugs, and light springs though. It will help a lot, even if your ports are clear. Again though.... my bolt, carrier, and FCG work is guaranteed to remove the unwanted friction that's currently slowing it down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) ^^^ All this makes a lot of sense actually... The ship has already sailed on the fire control group and stock conversion, and there is no way I am putting the factory parts for those areas anytime soon. I already put the factory puck back in while test firing it yesterday. It does fine with the factory magazine, the ten round promag magazine, and either gas piston, although the hammer is definitely causing a lot of drag on the system. The 20 round drum was the only configuration that caused consistent FTE issues. If I get an opportunity tomorrow, I might try to put another hundred rounds or so through it and either remove the front rail or at least loosen the top portion of it (just in case tension on the gas tube is causing more drag). As far as the stock goes, I like the A6 stock OK for now, but eventually it will get the adapter installed on the back end, and then either get a folding stock or one of the nicer and more "high-end" stocks such as those listed by Post-apocalyptic. Cobra 76 two: Can you please PM me your prices and expected turnaround time for your bolt, carrier, and FCG work??? Thanks!!! Edited July 3, 2011 by txapacheguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Will do. It really sounds like you have done your research. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Thanks. And yeah, I am kind of OCD about stuff like this and read the interwebs too much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CFOofEVIL 8 Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Great posts tx. Your definitely headed in the right direction - its awesome to see someone who has really done the research needed for this platform, most folks don't until after the fact. As an aside, I have a T6 stock on my S-12, and its been on there since I converted it. I personally have no problems with it, and thus haven't swapped it out. I actually dislike the look of AR stocks on a AK since it sorts messes up the "lines" on the gun and the way they flow, so the downward angle on the T6 works for me. Definitely not the end all of stocks but it'll be on there for a ways to come. Man I'd really dig a triangle folder. It's easy to get caught up on putting to much on the gun before you know its running perfect, I made that mistake despite conventional wisdom, lol. The good thing is that you can put it back on after you get it working smoothly if the parts aren't causing the issue in the first place. I digress. Hang in there and you'll get it going 110%, as there are so many helpful awesome folks here that know their stuff! Good luck and welcome to the forums! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement!!! I am certainly guilty of buying a few parts for this rig before doing the research, but I am going to get Cobra 76 two to shine all the internal stuff up for me later this week, and continue working on it until it will eat from the 20 round drums like a champ. I guess another thing that kind of discouraged me from test-firing it before the conversion was 922r compliance. I did not have any compliance parts for the gun yet, so I did not want to waste a trip to the range just to shoot from the factory mag. As it turns out, I think it would have worked just fine in that configuration since it does so right now for the most part, even with all the new stuff I put on it. I will update this thread with info regarding the next round of mods to the gun, and the results thereof. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement!!! I am certainly guilty of buying a few parts for this rig before doing the research, but I am going to get Cobra 76 two to shine all the internal stuff up for me later this week, and continue working on it until it will eat from the 20 round drums like a champ. I guess another thing that kind of discouraged me from test-firing it before the conversion was 922r compliance. I did not have any compliance parts for the gun yet, so I did not want to waste a trip to the range just to shoot from the factory mag. As it turns out, I think it would have worked just fine in that configuration since it does so right now for the most part, even with all the new stuff I put on it. I will update this thread with info regarding the next round of mods to the gun, and the results thereof. Wisely you choose, young Jedi.... Cobra is the originator of the friction reduction service. He would be my choice if I didn't do my own. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
OBITUARY 12 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Does the promag drum have spring tension settings? Or a break in procedure? Edited July 4, 2011 by OBITUARY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Does the promag drum have spring tension settings? Or a break in procedure? There does not appear to be on either account. One of the two pieces of paper that comes with the drum covers the fitting procedure that is often required to get the drum to lock in to the gun, The other piece of paper covers ammunition selection, and loading procedures. There do not appear to be any adjustments on the outside of the drum to adjust spring tension. There is already one guy on this board trying to figure out how to get the promag 10 round drum back together after dismantling it for paint. I do not wish to add to that list right now, so it is not likely that I will ever take one of my drums apart so long as they do not give me any trouble. I am pretty sure that the issues with my gun will be better fixed by getting a few of the parts fitted a bit better, and perhaps by removing or adjusting the 4-rail handguard that currently clamped over the gas tube assembly. If I were to dismantle the drum and back off the spring tension a bit, it would probably not be strong enough with only a round or two in the drum to cycle it properly, and I would be right back where I started. This, of course, is just speculation on my part, and I am open to suggestion and would love to hear what experience others have had with this... Edited July 4, 2011 by txapacheguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txapacheguy 1 Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Update on my project... I sent my bolt, carrier, and FCG out to Cobra 76 two to have them machined. The parts arrived a little over a week ago, and I hastily re-assembled the shotgun. Today is the first day I have had off work since the gun went back together, so I went to the mountains and tried it out. Since my last posts, I have removed the twister plug from my gun and replaced it with the MD Arms booster plug. For my trip to the range today, I fired some cheap federal game loads (7 1/2 shot, 1290fps) and the cheap bulk pack Remington sporting loads (7 1/2 shot 1200fps). I noticed no performance difference between the two types of ammunition. Let me just say that Cobra's work was worth every penny!!! The parts looked great, and the gun shoots flawlessly!!! I ran about 200 rounds through the gun with no malfunctions with the V-plug set to the "wide open" setting. It truly fired as fast as I could pull the trigger, as opposed to its dismal performance prior to the machining of the bolt, carrier, and FCG. I noticed no difference in performance between the 20 round drum, 10 round mag, and factory 4 round mag. Obligatory video link below: Edited October 6, 2011 by txapacheguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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