Draco Bullpup progress

[timdp 1]

First of all much thanks to Boba Debt for taking the initiative to contact the ATF and get legal clarification on adding the bullpup kit to a Draco pistol. It was finding his Draco bullpup post that led me to the Saiga 12 forum.

 

Picked up one of the K-Var/Century AK bullpup conversion kits a while back and was considering converting an AK. Standard AK is 25" from barrel tip to the end of the receiver and adding the bullpup stock adds 1 5/8", so I would have to add about four inches to the barrel with a permanently attached extension of some sort to bring it to 30" (CA minimum for centerfire rifle with detachable mags), and I did not want to do that.

Since SBR is not an option in CA, what about putting it on a Draco (without using the stock piece)? For CA folks this is probably as close as we can get to an SBR.

 

Looks possible...

Remove the original pistol grip and replace the lower handguard with the new grip/trigger assembly. Add the new front and rear sight assemblies...mockup done!

 

 

First two photos below show it mocked up with a 10/30 mag and the original trigger photoshopped out. There is no way to attach the stock that comes with the kit to the Draco, so that should eliminate any SBR issues.

 

Legality:

Originally Posted by NSR500

The best CYA is to probably get your own letter. You can follow the progress of another Draco bullpup pistol here: http://forum.saiga-1....ll-pup-pistol/

Evidently there is no letter, only an email. From the link:

 

Here is a copy of the email that explains the ATFs position:

 

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

 

 

Mr. Deyarmin,

 

This email is to confirm what we spoke of yesterday regarding your proposed AK bullpup pistol. As I confirmed with the ATF Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), the weapon as you described would not fall under the NFA. You stated your understanding that you would either need to purchase the Century Arms Draco AK pistol or build up a "virgin" receiver and then install the bullpup kit in order to prevent the gun from becoming an NFA type weapon.

 

This morning I spoke again with the FTB and requested information regarding the issuance of letters stating that a firearm does not fall under the NFA. I was told that such letters are only issued when a firearm was formerly considered to be an NFA firearm and then removed from the NFA list of firearms because of its collectible status. Please feel free to contact me with any future questions.

 

David M Jones- Industry Operations Investigator

 

Mockups

 

 

Update #1

Got this thing to the point where it is ready to test fire and will be test firing it this weekend. Replaced the missing front and rear sight parts (Allen screw, ball bearing and spring).

 

Finally gave up on the trigger to trigger group connecting wire that came with the kit and built my own out of a 12" bicycle spoke. Took a while to get the bends right, but it works pretty well now. Ended up having to relieve the wire holes in the trigger, trigger group and handguard to fit the spoke through.

 

The trigger was relieved on the inside because it was pushing up on the barrel at both ends of its travel. Also curved the corner edges of the very square trigger, but this is not shown in the trigger photos below.

 

Cut a channel with a big ball burr and Dremel in the right side of the handguard to make for better clearance for the connecting wire.

 

The trigger pin is a pretty weak design and adds some slop to the trigger pull. Have not figured out what to replace it with yet, but someday...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The lighter gray area is the clearance channel in the hard guard channel

 

 

Update #2

Finally got to shoot the gun yesterday.

 

Even with a new linkage, the trigger is very bad. You pull fairly hard until it fires, but its very hard to tell WHEN its going to fire so its very exciting! Hold is reasonably stable with the left hand holding the mag, but the relatively light weight (6.6 pounds) and lack of a stock to brace against the shoulder make for a pretty violent action. Most secure way to hold it is tucked inside the elbow, but then you can't use the sights. Laser time...

 

 

Lower handguard at the pistol grip needs some stock removal as the handguard slams down pretty hard against the second joint of the thumb.

 

Update #3

Worked a bit more on the bullpup today. Looks like the hard trigger problem has to do with the trigger to FCG linkage wire was binding between the right side trigger guard rivets and the hammer pin reinforcing plate/rail. The hammer spring also binds the wire a bit.

 

Got into the the receiver with grinding wheels and burrs (not easy because its so deep inside the receiver) and ground down the outside half of the rivets a bit and ground a bit on bottom of the rail/hammer pin reinforcing plate so the wire does not bind. Also bent the hammer spring so it clears the linkage wire. Works much better now!

 

Did some more work on the finger part of the trigger so its more comfortable.

 

Update #4

Last minute update before the July 2 shoot. Got the Tapco gas tube rail on with a cheapo red dot and replaced the AK sling with a single point sling. Added a side rail for a laser, but its not mounted in the photo. You can also see where I reworked the grip for my smaller hands, although there is more work on the other side. Polished the hammer and hooks. Also put on the bipod (cut down Romy RPK bipod).

 

 

 

 

Shot it at 25 yards with iron sights only today (ran out of time to play with the reflex sight). This is the final target after adjusting the sight a lot. The target below (25 yards) was shot by a number of people. Need to try out the AMD-65 muzzle brake next time out

 

Still need to do more work around the hammer spring and the hammer as the hammer was catching on the disconnector after each shot so we would have to pull the charging handle after each shot to reset the hammer.

 

Edited July 4, 2011 by timdp

[timdp 1]

Found more info from the ATF on AK bullpup design:

 

From: http://www.cbrps.com/Products.html

 

"The Draco pistol in the CBRPS configuration to be fired utilizing a single hand and without a front grip is considered a pistol as the information from a letter from the BATFE, below implies -"

 

"Your new design eliminates the forward handgrip and thus does not facilitate two handed firing as your initial design did. Therefore FTB finds that an AK pistol mounted in your redesigned stock is intended to be fired with one hand and thus constitutes a "pistol" as defined in the Gun Control Act. Accordingly an AK pistol mounted in your newly designed stock would not meet the definition of an "AOW" as noted above and thus would not be regulated under the provisions of the NFA in any way."

 

"All NFA rules apply and the addition of a foreend grip would constitute a Short Barrelled Rifle configuration, requiring proper Federal regulation and registration."

Edited July 5, 2011 by timdp

[BpS12 512]

Nice job Tim,

 

Might I make a suggestion for the trigger connection? I found that a small cable, like that on your tool reel secured with tiny steel clamps(perhpaps the crimp end of an electrical connector), works well with the KVar set up. This is what I used in my old S12 build.

 

Also, another option is to braze an arm off the side of the double hooks so as to reduce bends in your connecting rod/wire. That's what I'm going with on my S12 redeux. Every bend equals one more place for flex thereby "springing" your linkage.

 

Any plans for a forearm brace off the lower rear receiver for one handed fireing?

[Boba Debt 350]

Nice job.

 

I mounted a bull pup kit on my Draco and the trigger wire worked just like a full size AK.

 

What problems did you have?

[bigj480 203]

Wow, pretty cool. Especially without "paperwork". If I ever do an AK bullpup I think I'll go this route. Think you could post a picture of that correspondence, Boba? I alway like to be able to prove that I'm legal. I have a letter for my AR non-rifle/non-pistol for that reason.

[timdp 1]

Nice job Tim,

 

Might I make a suggestion for the trigger connection? I found that a small cable, like that on your tool reel secured with tiny steel clamps(perhpaps the crimp end of an electrical connector), works well with the KVar set up. This is what I used in my old S12 build.

 

Also, another option is to braze an arm off the side of the double hooks so as to reduce bends in your connecting rod/wire. That's what I'm going with on my S12 redeux. Every bend equals one more place for flex thereby "springing" your linkage.

 

Any plans for a forearm brace off the lower rear receiver for one handed fireing?

 

I like the cable idea. How did you get the cable to clear the mag/mag well? Was looking for a thread on your bpS12 build but did not find one. Link?

The new bicycle spoke is not flexing much. Original wire was . 053". The spoke is a double butted high tensile stainless steel (thicker for 1 1/2" ate each end where are the bends are) and is .70" at the ends and .065" in the middle.

 

 

Nice job.

 

I mounted a bull pup kit on my Draco and the trigger wire worked just like a full size AK.

 

What problems did you have?

 

I was binding up tight. Fouled the right side of the handguard and fouled badly under the hammer pivot and hammer spring and did not really fit around the mag. I futzed around with it for a while and finally decide that a new link would be a better idea and it works much better now.

[BpS12 512]

Here's the link to the original post. Oddly, it didn't show up in my "Content"??? Nor are any of my galleries.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/44535-etin-thrasherbullpupped-s12/page__p__407497__hl__%2BEtin+%2BThrasher__fromsearch__1#entry407497

 

The new build, if I ever get time to work on it again, is going to have a near barrel length stock to provide as long a sight radius as I can get. I really do not care for the KVar sight riser/hook(on everything it can) sight. Imagine what you see in the pics, but out to the back of the muzzlebreak.

 

To get the cable to stay up out of the way of the mag I drove a little hard rubber wedge in between the reciever and trunion. Nice smooth pull and no rubbing on the mag. But that shouldn't be a problem for a x39 build. I did find the original linkage rod "spongy" for lack of a better term. If you use the cable, make real sure your claps are strong enough to bite the cable and hold. I used some "tinny" clamps once and they slipped after a few dozen rounds.

[Berzerker2 19]

I'm a little puzzled about this whole bullpup concept using a Draco. I have one and I don't see the advantage of that configuration. A standard Draco is a handfull but at least you can steady the pistol with both hands. I just don't get it except for the novelty of the setup. Not sure what Gen Kalashnikov would think about this set up. Might take a shot or two of his favorite brand of Vodka to warm up with it..LOL

That's what I LOVE about this forum though, there's always new ideas from a lot of talented AK shooters and there always interesting ideas shared.

[BpS12 512]

A Bullpupped Draco becomes a single hand pistol when you use a single point/subgun sling on it. Push forward just like you would in a two hand grip, but with just the one/firing hand.

This also puts most all of the weapon behind the fireing hand rather than in front of it making balance(w/sling) better.

I'd like to do a matched set of Minis but with one having left hand ejection,

 

I believe the Russians at the factory helped design the KVar Bullpup and the Russian military has Bullpupped some of their SVDs. It's the going trend for some damn good reasons.

[Berzerker2 19]

A Bullpupped Draco becomes a single hand pistol when you use a single point/subgun sling on it. Push forward just like you would in a two hand grip, but with just the one/firing hand.

This also puts most all of the weapon behind the fireing hand rather than in front of it making balance(w/sling) better.

I'd like to do a matched set of Minis but with one having left hand ejection,

 

I believe the Russians at the factory helped design the KVar Bullpup and the Russian military has Bullpupped some of their SVDs. It's the going trend for some damn good reasons.

 

Well I can see the advantage of a full size battle rifle getting the bullpup treatment like the IDF Tavor vs. the Galil but I guess I just don't see the advantage of it using a Draco. Of course I have never tried one set up like that so it just seems a little strange, ergonomically speaking. Variety is the spice of life they say. Always interesting though. Thanks!

[BpS12 512]

Ya, I think the only real downside to the BP is mag swaps. But I've found that if, like me, you don't have taxpayer money issueing you new mags to replace lost/broken ones, it works well to have a dump pouch on your front, basically right under your mag. With a little practice it can become a fairly smooth circular motion, release-drop-grab-insert, repeat as neccessary, lol.

 

Gotta admit, I'm not a fan of the Tavor. It's just a little TOO Starship Troopers for me, lol. But it works so thumbs up there.

[timdp 1]

I'm a little puzzled about this whole bullpup concept using a Draco. I have one and I don't see the advantage of that configuration. A standard Draco is a handfull but at least you can steady the pistol with both hands. I just don't get it except for the novelty of the setup. Not sure what Gen Kalashnikov would think about this set up. Might take a shot or two of his favorite brand of Vodka to warm up with it..LOL

That's what I LOVE about this forum though, there's always new ideas from a lot of talented AK shooters and there always interesting ideas shared.

 

1. I live in California... Its as close to an SBR as I will ever be able to own unless there is a huge change in CA gun laws.

 

2. ATF says the Draco remains a pistol with addition of the bullpup kit (because it has no stock).

 

3. I have short arms. With the right hand on the grip, left hand gripping the mag, it's possible to tuck it into the shoulder...

 

 

A comparison:

 

H&K MP5 in 9mm (muzzle energy 383 ft.lbs)

Overall length (with stock extended 27.25"

Barrel length: 8.85"

 

Bullpup Draco in 7.62x39 (muzzle energy 1527 ft.lbs)

Overall length 21.5"

Barrel length: 11.5

 

Photo comparison

 

[Scott Kenny 144]

That, sir, is downright evil! Especially since it's NOT an NFA item...

 

Well done!

[Shadoh 16]

I like it! Could you get into trouble if you fire it with it tucked up against your shoulder?

[timdp 1]

I like it! Could you get into trouble if you fire it with it tucked up against your shoulder?

 

 

ATF says its a pistol. There are not any laws about HOW you fire a pistol. It does not suddenly change from a pistol to an SBR. If

ATF had decided that it could be an SBR they would not have issued the opinions I posted earlier

[agp75 0]

What about bullpup RPK? Is it even fiseble?

[timdp 1]

What about bullpup RPK? Is it even fiseble?

 

Going to have to say no on the RPK conversion. Took a look at my RPK and I see problems.

 

The length of the lower hanguard and rear mount is the same as a standard AK, so would work, as would the upper handguard. The front of the RPK lower handguard is larger so the front of the bullpup pistol grip would be floating, but a filler could be made.

 

The big problem is the larger diameter of the RPK barrel which is going to interfere with the actuator arm on the trigger and I don't see an easy solution for that problem. The arm almost touches the Draco barrel (and gets plenty hot). Don't think the RPK barrel will drop into place with the arm in place.

 

Tim

[BpS12 512]

Lots of us have done it with S12s, an RPK would be a cake walk comparatively speaking, lol. FOr the trigger assembly, you just cut off and move the side plate out and solder/weld it. I used a big gob of an epoxy stick and then dremeled down to what was needed. Works great.

 

For my new S12 build I'm using aluminum tubing for the stock itself. Still trying to figure out how to make the trigger though. I don't want to use the KVar's because they wont give up their supplier and thus it would cost the price of their kit to get the trigger. Once I figure out the simpliest way to manufacture my triggers, the rest of the kit will be easy.

 

As for my RPK, I think I've already got an adapter figured out so the same kit will work for regular AKs.

[Berzerker2 19]

I'm a little puzzled about this whole bullpup concept using a Draco. I have one and I don't see the advantage of that configuration. A standard Draco is a handfull but at least you can steady the pistol with both hands. I just don't get it except for the novelty of the setup. Not sure what Gen Kalashnikov would think about this set up. Might take a shot or two of his favorite brand of Vodka to warm up with it..LOL

That's what I LOVE about this forum though, there's always new ideas from a lot of talented AK shooters and there always interesting ideas shared.

 

1. I live in California... Its as close to an SBR as I will ever be able to own unless there is a huge change in CA gun laws.

 

2. ATF says the Draco remains a pistol with addition of the bullpup kit (because it has no stock).

 

3. I have short arms. With the right hand on the grip, left hand gripping the mag, it's possible to tuck it into the shoulder...

 

 

A comparison:

 

H&K MP5 in 9mm (muzzle energy 383 ft.lbs)

Overall length (with stock extended 27.25"

Barrel length: 8.85"

 

Bullpup Draco in 7.62x39 (muzzle energy 1527 ft.lbs)

Overall length 21.5"

Barrel length: 11.5

 

Photo comparison

 

I saw that Solar Maglock on there and kinda thought you might be in the PRK. It's kinda nice to see it's all been blessed by the Calif DOJ. Quite unusual considering the Draconian (how fitting!) gun laws here behind the "Rainbow Curtain" in Commiefornia.

Pretty wild looking beast! Have fun with that!

Edited October 3, 2011 by Berzerker2

[timdp 1]

I saw that Solar Maglock on there and kinda thought you might be in the PRK. It's kinda nice to see it's all been blessed by the Calif DOJ. Quite unusual considering the Draconian (how fitting!) gun laws here behind the "Rainbow Curtain" in Commiefornia.

Pretty wild looking beast! Have fun with that!

B

 

Blessed by the DOJ? Not likely. Since Calguns.net got rolling with the original bullet buttons in 2005-2006, the DOJ will no longer answer questions regarding the legality of a gun. Calguns turned a number of their responses around on them, so that they are now scared to answer questions.

 

In a recent court case they admitted that AR15 bullet buttons are actually legal, six YEARS after people started putting on rifles, and they were not happy to be forced into that admission...

Lots of us have done it with S12s, an RPK would be a cake walk comparatively speaking, lol. For the trigger assembly, you just cut off and move the side plate out and solder/weld it.

 

 

Took a look at the trigger piece in my post above and it looks like you could grind down the boss/spacer on the right side of the trigger piece to move the trigger to the right and then add a spacer on the other side to take up the extra space.

 

This would move the trigger to the right, which would be a good thing for those of us with a short reach. Might need to hog out the right side of the handguard for clearance though.

 

This might also cut down on heat transfer from the barrel to the trigger. I seem to be talking myself into moving the trigger to the right on my own gun...

 

Tim

[BpS12 512]

That's an idea, but it might cause an issue if you were forced to shoot left handed, or in selling it for that matter.

If you have a dremel and a propane solder kit(or epoxy stick), its not hard to remove the side plate and move it out on the axle tube. Just takes some time.

[timdp 1]

That's an idea, but it might cause an issue if you were forced to shoot left handed, or in selling it for that matter.

If you have a dremel and a propane solder kit(or epoxy stick), its not hard to remove the side plate and move it out on the axle tube. Just takes some time.

 

Will take a look at that side plate.

 

A bullpup Draco is not something you even want to think about firing left handed, especially when tucked into the shoulder. Charging handle will take out teeth...

[whitetrashrn 74]

I took out my Bullpup out to shoot over the weekend gave the one hand a try and It's not for me. After 5 shots even with the sling didn't feel right.

Just my .2

[BpS12 512]

I took out my Bullpup out to shoot over the weekend gave the one hand a try and It's not for me. After 5 shots even with the sling didn't feel right.

Just my .2

 

I was wondering about that. without the weight of the barrel out there, it might be a bit much to handle. This gets back to making a rear side plate to sit over the forarm to help with muzzle climb, etc. Just a thought. I think I've seen that some where.