Ammo Types (pros/cons)

[irishsandman 17]

so I know there are a lot of people who know more about ammo than me, but I couldn't find this discussed through search.

 

I am going to be buying ammo in bulk in the next few months at some point, but I'm not sure on what to buy. I'm curious what you all think is ideal in type of bullets used in the various rounds out there. I want to know about the major pros of each type, but I know someone will ask what my needs are. I primarily would like my ammo to be ready for SHTF/if I'm in danger. I won't actually be hunting with it (though in SHTF that might have to happen on a long enough timeline). I'm not really considering it for Home Defense, but I would like to know what's suggested for HD (I live in an apartment, but that might not always be the case). so:

 

Soft Point: best for hunting I've heard, is this true? if that's true is it because it causes less soft tissue damage/doesn't destroy meat?

 

Hollow Point: I've heard it may not feed properly? is this especially true on Saigas? a problem on all AKs? not really a problem? I think this might be "best" for using against unarmored people in self-defense. any truth to that?

 

FMJ: pretty much the only type I've shot. I know prices are cheaper. isn't this round mandated in combat by one of the Conventions (Geneva, etc.)? I've read that it tends to go right through people and isn't ideal for soft targets.

 

1.) are my assumptions of each bullet-type close to correct?

 

2.) What round would you want in your mags if you were out in the woods, alone, with bad guys coming down on you?

 

3.) will you notice much difference in how each round shoots? if I need to use hollow points for SHTF, will I be surprised how they shoot if I trained/practiced with FMJ?

 

4.) if you were away from neighbors, what type would you select for HD?

 

once again, I appreciate all the info!

[dashowdy 141]

1. your assumptions are correct as for uses, hollow point I have heard with many brands except for wolf military classic do not expand like they are supposed too, soft points are good for hunting because of the yaw effect created by the soft nose as it enters tissue and probably not destroying as much meet, fmj is just for when you need maximum penetration but on a soft target will generally not yaw unless it is like the boat tail design of the golden tiger fmj. Some of this may be a little off but this is my understanding of each bullet type as far as I know.

 

2. Any round in this situation would be good as long as it goes bang every time which is what ak's are known for so no preference here.

 

3. It does not matter which you train with, just be familiar with your rifle and what each rounds capabilities are. i.e fmj would be much better than soft points for penetrating cover, that sorta thing.

 

4. as far as home defense soft points if you must for home defense less likely to kill your neighbors across the street. However my benelli supernova is my home defense weapon along with my 9 mm, my daughters room is on the opposite side wall near my front door so I use unplated lead buckshot for home defense as it would be less likely to richochet and pass through her wall, granted I would have scooped her up and moved her anyway if time allowed if not I would be engaging at super close range to avoid possible injury to anyone else other than the stupid sob that decided to mess with my house and my family.

 

5. dog is not a bad Idea they are great alarms and can be a first line of defense in case the bad guy/s catch you off guard.

 

synopsis with where you are at I would say a rifle is not exactly your safest means of home defense at least for your neighbors

[fauxknight 30]

FMJ: pretty much the only type I've shot. I know prices are cheaper. isn't this round mandated in combat by one of the Conventions (Geneva, etc.)? I've read that it tends to go right through people and isn't ideal for soft targets.

 

The military can't use rounds designed to cause extra tissue damage like hollow poitns, on the plus side FMJs go through armor better which is usefull on a true military vs military engagement.

 

Generally for civilians though FMJ for range practice and HPs/JHPs for self defense. HPs/JHPs are not only more effective at stopping an unarmored target, they also have significanlty less chance of overpenetration. There can be feed issues with some types of ammo, always use ammo you trust and know will run in your weapon. We don't use rifles for hunting much here in Ohio so I can't comment on your best round for that, normally here you have to use a shotgun with slug or sabot for deer and bird shot for birds.

 

2.) What round would you want in your mags if you were out in the woods, alone, with bad guys coming down on you?

 

A 7.62x39 hits like a truck compared to your smaller caliber ARs and is far less likely to just make a tiny hole in the target and keep going, so any ammo in your mag that feeds well and shoots well is going to work. Hollow points will have a higher chance of stopping the person in one hit if they aren't wearing armor, but again a 7.62x39 hits pretty hard.

 

3.) will you notice much difference in how each round shoots? if I need to use hollow points for SHTF, will I be surprised how they shoot if I trained/practiced with FMJ?

 

Some rounds will shoot differently. Make sure you've tested each type of round in your weapon to know that it will cycle and if it has any significant ballistic differences you need to know about.

 

4.) if you were away from neighbors, what type would you select for HD?

 

I have other neighbors in my building so I can't say what I would actually do, I keep a .40 with JHPs for HD as is, and if I had my own house I'd keep 00 buck in a shotgun as well. With a 7.62x39 and no neighbors I'd assume your were keeping it ready for medium range problems, over 50 yards but less than 200 yards, that a handgun or shotgun just isn't as well suited for, at that point I would use whatever ammo seemed the most reliable and accurate for you is probably going to be the best.

[stnls1911 55]

For SHTF scenario I recommend the 124 gr. Wolf Military Classic in the camo box. It is loaded with the 8m3 Sapsan bullet, which is known for fragmenting after hitting soft targets. I agree with the above posts, a pistol with quality HP's or a shotgun with buck shot for home defense.

[my762buzz 141]

2.) What round would you want in your mags if you were out in the woods, alone, with bad guys coming down on you?

 

 

I think you can answer that yourself if you watch this video.

Watch the containers very carefully as they are shot.

Shot 1 BEAR HP, SHOT 2 WOLF MILITARY CLASSIC (8M3), SHOT 3 DOUBLE TAP (HORNADY VMAX), SHOT 4 CORBON SP.

 

If you want minimum damage to the target, use a FMJ. If you want maximum tissue disruption, you need something that really tears the target a new one.

 

The cheapest russian import that makes this happen has been the 8m3 bullet previously manufactured in Military Classic 124 gr hollow points.

 

The hornady plastic tip ammo will do the same.

Edited July 11, 2011 by my762buzz

[irishsandman 17]

nice vid, my762buzz.

 

I appreciate all the feedback.

[bdub 6]

Anybody tried DoubleTap 150gr JSP? Pricey, around .80 per round. Is something like this worth it for deer hunting? Or will my Brown Bear 123 gr HP do OK?

[stnls1911 55]

Anybody tried DoubleTap 150gr JSP? Pricey, around .80 per round. Is something like this worth it for deer hunting? Or will my Brown Bear 123 gr HP do OK?

 

I've read that the 150gr has caused several carriers to slam into the back trunnion. Hornady has a 123gr v-max in the 7.62 x 39

Edited July 12, 2011 by stnls1911

[t3mac21 1]

"FMJ: pretty much the only type I've shot. I know prices are cheaper. isn't this round mandated in combat by one of the Conventions (Geneva, etc.)? I've read that it tends to go right through people and isn't ideal for soft targets"

 

 

 

It was the hague convention of 1899 that mandated this, not the geneva conventions.

[Tony Baggadonuts 1]

I have had no problems cycling Silver Bear hollowpoints, though they may not actually expand as they should (like stated above). I have done some basic testing of various rounds through small 20 oz water bottles at the range. All the FMJ rounds I shot passed cleanly through the bottled. So cleanly in fact, many times did not even knock over the bottle as it passed through. The Golden Bear Soft Points and Brown Bear SPs would literally explode the bottle as they exit. All shots were taken with the same gun and at 100 yards. No exactly a scientific experiment, but it was good enough for me.

 

I buy ammo in bulk, and have now switched to buying only Golden/Brown Bear SPs. I have a ton of FMJ on hand as well, but at this point SPs are all I am buying.

[rifleshooter474 2]

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/50-round-box-762x39-sst-hornady-steel-case-ammo

[BpS12 512]

I've got some Winchester FMJ and SP, any reveiws out there? I'll be shooting them and some Wolf FMJ next week.

[RobRez 1,895]

I have had the best all around results with a nice soft point bullet. A decent soft-point doesn't "Yaw" or turn on impact, it expands, usually to twice it's diameter, while remaining intact (not fragmenting). Hollow points have been the least accurate for me. I would choose soft point ammo if it were a one ammo for all situations thing. Be sure to test a box of each type before buying bulk if accuracy counts.Similar Rifles of the same caliber can shoot different ammos with much different results in accuracy.

I use bulk Wolf 124gr. FMJ ammo for plinking.

[irishsandman 17]

http://www.sgammo.co...steel-case-ammo

 

. . . and this link means what? context man!

[irishsandman 17]

hmm . . . I see a lot of replies talking about SPs now. any downsides to soft points?

[Tony Baggadonuts 1]

hmm . . . I see a lot of replies talking about SPs now. any downsides to soft points?

 

None that I have seen. Some guns have trouble cycling SPs, but I have not heard of this problem with AK based weapons. There are some SPs in 7.62x39 that have a really rounded nose, and I have heard of people with AKs not being abole to cycle them. This is not an issue for the Bear brands, Wolf, Winchester, MFS, or other SPs I have tried (since the bullet is the same basic shape of an FMJ but with a SP). I have read that the Russian SP bullets (I.e Bear, Wolf, etc) dont actually expand like a true SP should. This is probably the case, but from my experience, the Russian SPs do more damage than an FMJ (shooting objects, as I do not hunt).

 

The accuracy of the SPs I shoot are as good as the same brands FMJ. Like I stated above, I primarily shoot Golden or Brown Bear Ammo (FMJ, SP, and HP). The cost of the SP rounds is marginally more expensive. For example; I buy most ammo from Ammo To Go online, the price of Brown Bear FMJ is like $114 for 500 and Brown Bear SP is like $128 per 500. If you buy 1000 rounds of the SPs, the per round cost is cheaper than the per round cost of 500 Brown Bear FMJ.

 

I know everyone has their own opinions, so take mine as you wish. I suggest buying about 100 rounds each of various brands/types of ammo and see what you think.

 

 

 

[my762buzz 141]

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/50-round-box-762x39-sst-hornady-steel-case-ammo

 

 

The Hornady loaded plastic tip ammo pretty much is the best performing American made 7.62x39 ammo for self defense.

 

It feeds with a FMJ profile and opens up efficiently distributing far more proportional force than most other bullet choices available.

 

I have shot deer with the hornady plastic tip ammo and it caused far more damage than typical american made soft points.

 

 

No energy is wasted. As much as they expand and transfer energy, this means the bullet is less likely to exit and cause unintentional damage to someone standing behind the intended target.

Edited July 17, 2011 by my762buzz

[irishsandman 17]

http://www.sgammo.co...steel-case-ammo

 

 

The Hornady loaded plastic tip ammo pretty much is the best performing American made 7.62x39 ammo for self defense.

 

It feeds with a FMJ profile and opens up efficiently distributing far more proportional force than most other bullet choices available.

 

I have shot deer with the hornady plastic tip ammo and it caused far more damgage than typical american made soft points.

 

 

No energy is wasted. As much as they expand and transfer energy, this means the bullet is less likely to exit and cause unintentional damage to someone standing behind the intended target.

 

I appreciate the explanation! really, thanks!

[irishsandman 17]

http://www.sgammo.co...steel-case-ammo

 

 

The Hornady loaded plastic tip ammo pretty much is the best performing American made 7.62x39 ammo for self defense.

 

It feeds with a FMJ profile and opens up efficiently distributing far more proportional force than most other bullet choices available.

 

I have shot deer with the hornady plastic tip ammo and it caused far more damgage than typical american made soft points.

 

 

No energy is wasted. As much as they expand and transfer energy, this means the bullet is less likely to exit and cause unintentional damage to someone standing behind the intended target.

 

After reading this and others I think I will be looking at a bear branded SP case. I'd already heard good things, but not in context of a discussion like this.

[t3mac21 1]

I've got some remington soft points, they cycle fine. I intended to use them for hunting but, I never ended up bringing the AK out for that. They're 125 grain pointed soft points.

[BpS12 512]

http://www.sgammo.com/product/hornady/50-round-box-762x39-sst-hornady-steel-case-ammo

 

 

The Hornady loaded plastic tip ammo pretty much is the best performing American made 7.62x39 ammo for self defense.

 

It feeds with a FMJ profile and opens up efficiently distributing far more proportional force than most other bullet choices available.

 

I have shot deer with the hornady plastic tip ammo and it caused far more damgage than typical american made soft points.

 

 

No energy is wasted. As much as they expand and transfer energy, this means the bullet is less likely to exit and cause unintentional damage to someone standing behind the intended target.

 

 

Hey, that's a better deal than what I got my Winchester SPs for. And I recycle LOTS of steel anyway....hmmm.

 

Thanks

[pjj342 632]

As far as plinking goes, I use the 122gr fmj ulyanosk white box stuff or the tula122fmj, I think theyre exactly the same. Its a couple cents over 5bucks for 20rds at walmart. Ive never had a single problem with it. I keep 154gr wolf SP in my mags. I cant spend the money it would take to keep 120 vmax rds in my availale mags. Although they are far superior to what I have in there now. bottom line, if you hit your target in the aweful situation that you need to, any hp or sp will do fine, and if they dont expand they might as well be an fmj, which is fine too. The vmax is great if you can afford it, although I dont see the need unless you are hunting and getting 20 at a time.

[Dudethebagman 222]

 

The cheapest russian import that makes this happen has been the 8m3 bullet previously manufactured in Military Classic 124 gr hollow points.

 

 

Has been? Previously? What's with the past tense?

 

Are they not making the 124 hollow point anymore? I've noticed it's gotten scarce.

[my762buzz 141]

 

The cheapest russian import that makes this happen has been the 8m3 bullet previously manufactured in Military Classic 124 gr hollow points.

 

 

Has been? Previously? What's with the past tense?

 

Are they not making the 124 hollow point anymore? I've noticed it's gotten scarce.

 

I have not seen much of it lately. It might be days away from more arriving by shipload but I see none right now.

 

The other thing is lately I have seen a few reports of a possible change in the bullet type which I have not been able to confirm because I can't seem to find any

 

from the last batch imported. If I do, I might go shoot some wet news print and hopefully recover some test bullets to post some pictures of.

Edited July 17, 2011 by my762buzz

[pjj342 632]

On the sapson bullet, I was told that it has prefail cuts on the sides of the hollow point, and if it doesnt, it isnt a sapson. Is this correct? I passed on couple boxes of wolf 124gr Hp in the camo box because they didnt have the cuts. Was I right in doing so or do the sapsons look just like any other wolf hollow point?

[my762buzz 141]

On the sapson bullet, I was told that it has prefail cuts on the sides of the hollow point, and if it doesnt, it isnt a sapson. Is this correct? I passed on couple boxes of wolf 124gr Hp in the camo box because they didnt have the cuts. Was I right in doing so or do the sapsons look just like any other wolf hollow point?

 

The 8m3 has always been 124 gr hollowpoints. No other recent hollowpoints from Russia are 124 gr that I seen any reports of.

 

The prefail cuts should be easy to feel with a thin wire or staple on the inside of the hollow point.

 

If you saw a new recent batch that was labeled 124gr hollow points in the camo boxes, the prefail cuts should be there.

 

If no cuts, then most probably something is different.

 

Yes, it was a good idea to hold back for the real 8m3 if it can't be identified.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way a few pictures (not my pigs but good references for this) of pigs shot with 8m3:

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2021077/1

Edited July 17, 2011 by my762buzz

[pjj342 632]

Fuckin devastating, thats one hell of an exit wound. I wanna hunt pigs with my ak, but I live in PA where there are no pigs , and noone can hunt with a semiauto rifle here, although the rest of our gun laws are pretty decent, I guess I cant have everything, thank goodness no bullet buttons or ammo restrictions .

sorry for the ramble, Thanks buzz, thats was just what I wanted to know. I didnt know if prefail cuts were on the outside as to look distinctive or on the inside, which would look like any other wolf hollow point. Now I know, and I think I may have passed up the good ones, oh well It was only two boxes anyways. Ill be ready for next time.

Do you know if these bullets are still being manufactured? Im not under the impression that they are a rarity, but I do think they will get grabbed up if at the right price, by those who know the difference.

Also, what do you think of the 154gr wolf SP? I figure most deadly situations happen at less than 25yds anyways, and these will get out to 200 before really losing steam. I like throwing the biggest chunk of lead down range as possible, with a rifle anyways. Im not sure how much it matters.

[my762buzz 141]

Fuckin devastating, thats one hell of an exit wound. I wanna hunt pigs with my ak, but I live in PA where there are no pigs , and noone can hunt with a semiauto rifle here, although the rest of our gun laws are pretty decent, I guess I cant have everything, thank goodness no bullet buttons or ammo restrictions .

sorry for the ramble, Thanks buzz, thats was just what I wanted to know. I didnt know if prefail cuts were on the outside as to look distinctive or on the inside, which would look like any other wolf hollow point. Now I know, and I think I may have passed up the good ones, oh well It was only two boxes anyways. Ill be ready for next time.

Do you know if these bullets are still being manufactured? Im not under the impression that they are a rarity, but I do think they will get grabbed up if at the right price, by those who know the difference.

Also, what do you think of the 154gr wolf SP? I figure most deadly situations happen at less than 25yds anyways, and these will get out to 200 before really losing steam. I like throwing the biggest chunk of lead down range as possible, with a rifle anyways. Im not sure how much it matters.

 

I hope they continue to ship them to the USA but there is not much of them around for sale right now.

 

I have not tried the 154gr but the seem to open up a bit in ballistic gel.

Definitely better than FMJ but not as much concentrated destruction as 8m3.

 

http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x39mm%20Wolf%20154gr%20Soft%20Point.html

 

Wolf 154gr sp

Edited July 18, 2011 by my762buzz

[pjj342 632]

Now thats an answer. thanks for the link. I was wondering if anyone had any info on what the sapson does against car doors, masonry walls and other hard cover. Against those you may rather have a SP or FMJ, but im quite sure it would do just fine against body armor. Has anyone done tests specific to the sapson?

[my762buzz 141]

Now thats an answer. thanks for the link. I was wondering if anyone had any info on what the sapson does against car doors, masonry walls and other hard cover. Against those you may rather have a SP or FMJ, but im quite sure it would do just fine against body armor. Has anyone done tests specific to the sapson?

 

The open tip is suppose to react with water hydraulically to strip away the jacket and allow the lead core to quickly expand or fragment within the wet media like for instance living tissue.

Hitting a car door should not have the same expansion effect and I would seriously doubt that lead core FMJ would have any significant advantage in hard barrier penetration but I can't remember seeing anyone's testing of hp versus sp vs fmj through wood or some other measurable material distance wise. Because bullets are only stabilized by the twist rate to remain stable through air, impacting anything denser than air will cause a degree of instability in the path which means no more perfect straight arc but tumbling sooner than later.

Watch how soon you can see a bullet tumble through an impacted object in this video.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4526819805867391097#

 

If the car door were to cause fmj, soft point, or hp to tumble the same upon impact, the soft point or hollow point probably would not work as they should when the bullet finally impacts an intended target inside the car sideways.

 

Basic cinder blocks are fairly tough to pass through with even a 30-06.

This guy that posted a video on you tube did basic masonry tests with various calibers.

You can see a bullet that barely passed through the block then key hole into the immediate wood board behind it.