TARE 47 Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 What are your opinions on which one is better for what application, or what are the positives and negatives of each design when compared to each other.? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Hard choice,I think my Saiga will outshoot any of the FALs I have owned but the FALs were setup as MBRs so their handling was excellent and the mags were cheap.Better selection of accessories for the Saiga since it's Kalashnikov based and the Saiga is lighter when compared to a FAL of similar barrel weight(medium-heavy contour). If you don't mind spending more money on the mags the Saiga is a better value for the money and when CSSPECS new generation of stamped steel magazines comes out in the next month or two there will be no comparison. SAIGA 308 FTMFW! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TARE 47 Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Thanks SOPMOD I was assuming what you've just stated, but have no experience with either. Is one any likely to wear out faster or shoot significantly more accurately without drastic modification? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Well if you are going for absolute accuracy you can build a heavy barrel FAL, have it headspaced tight and get a freefloat kit for it but then you are talking about a $1500-$2000 weapon and when a tilting bolt weapon is headspaced that tight it becomes unreliable as well. The Saiga is inexpensive because it's made in a country that cranks out billions of similar weapons and has a vast infrastructure and cheap labor. The same weapon built in the USA would triple what the Saiga rifles cost(but it might have a nicer paintjob). The Saiga is a rugged, fairly accurate rifle but it's not a for real semi auto sniper rifle like an SR25/AR10T and it's not a down and dirty MBR like an FN/FAL Paratrooper but somewhere in between. I think it's more rugged and reliable than the AR10SR25(with it's factory mags) and you can configure it very nicely for about $800 when it's all said and done(not including optics and mags)or you can just do the pistol grip conversion and a basic stock and knock a couple hundred bucks off of that. Now I will make some caveats, some Saigas shoot better than other right out of the box and a Saiga has a loose twist and prefers light bullets. I had one Saiga 308 that after pressing the gas block on and off to put an RPK handguard retainer became a pretty sloppy shooter. I don't know if it was like that from the factory because I didn't accuracy test it first but my last two were "minute of golfball" at 100 yards with the right ammo and that's good enough for the kind of shooting I expect from it(torso sized targets to 600+ yards). As cheap as a Saiga 308 is I would buy one, shoot it and if it was a tack driver call it a day and consider myself blessed but if I got one that was a dog I would go stick it on consignment at the busiest gunshop in town -$50 and go buy another one and see if it was on the money.I would still be $500 ahead compared to any of the alternatives after doing so. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I put them about on par with each other though I prefer the Saiga for many of the reasons above. My main problem with the Saiga is lack of repair parts in particular the bolt and carrier, everything else can be replaced with parts from other AKs with some forethought. If they ever get cheap again..heh..buying a spare is not bad idea. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TARE 47 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks for the info guys, has anyone a clue about how many rounds a .308 Saiga can go before the barrel is shot out or the gun is battered, or do they wear similarly to a 7.62x39 saiga? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 the .308 barrel should be good for tens of thousands of rounds, provided you don't do back to back mag dumps too often. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I had both. The fal has better handling (for me), better sights, more spare parts availability (if that matters to you) cheaper mags. Dis-assembly is simple (opens up like an AR) and just pull the bolt carrier out. Most major parts are blocky, without any curves or small spaces for dirt to build up so cleaning is easy and reliability is high. It works on a short stroke piston like the sks & dragonov so its accurate enough. The gas is adjustable so you can tune it for better accuracy with different ammo. The bad is that even with all the spare parts available there are a lot of variations from country to country and not all parts fit all Fals. You have to know exactly who's country's fal you have. Even then its not 100%. For instance there are a lot of Rhoditian fals however they never actually made their own. All their fals were put together from a combination of other fals such as Brit, Aussie, SA and others. Some fals are a mix of metric (fal) and standard (commonwealth) parts. Like a metric lower and standard upper. So you have to know your fal inside and out. Or have a gun smith who really knows and specializes in fals. Even the gas setting that allows you to squeeze more accuracy out of the fal can be a negative. This was a military rifle and militaries issue one type of bulle. So its fairly easy to just set your rifle to run that ammo and forget about it. On the other hand we have to buy our ammo and a lot of us try to split cost and performance. So if you have ammo "A" and then use ammo "B" you'll likely have to readjust your gas settings. And if youre a lefty like me the fal is les then ideal. Especially the commonwealth types. For me the biggest problem was how the standard L1 had the safely set up. The lever hung past the receiver and I would ingage it while shooting. Again this is a specifically a lefty problem. Edited July 13, 2011 by Arik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) By the way a Saiga 308 has a cold hammer forged barrel and most FALs do not have that(except for late model STG58s and late model Belgian FAL-O models). Edited July 15, 2011 by SOPMOD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bagels 10 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 What are your opinions on which one is better for what application, or what are the positives and negatives of each design when compared to each other.? My two cents: Saiga Pro Far fewer separate parts FAL ~143 Saiga ~75 and more reliable (not that the FAL is not reliable - it is just not as reliable) FAL Pro Ergonomics - particularly for pulling the bolt back and more rapid mag changes. Saiga Con Parts availability - particularly the .308 Saiga barrel and bolts FAL Con More Expensive, though mags are cheaper. Get both, Cheers! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sickness 89 Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 the .308 barrel should be good for tens of thousands of rounds, provided you don't do back to back mag dumps too often. Uhm, well I guess it has to do with what you expect your gun to shoot, but no. If you have a match quality 308, 5000 - 7000 rounds is about what you'll be able to shoot before your groups start opening up. For battle rifles, 10,000 rounds is a good estimate. I went with a FAL for my 308. If I could do it over again, I'd give the M14/M1A design a closer look. I skipped the M1A at the time because USGI parts were drying up and getting expensive. Now there are lots of quality M14 parts out there from a few different makers. Maybe one day.. I love my FAL though. Parts are easy to find, and cheap.. shoots great. Stay away from the Century crap, but you probably already knew that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Most shooters have stated that between 8-9K for a stainless match grade barrel in a similar .308 semi auto. The reason being that groups open up a little. Since the Saiga and Vepr rifles have not only chrome lined, but cold hammered chrome lined. And Russian Chrome lining is not hamstrung by the EPA, the barrels should last significantly longer. If anyone wants to send me a pallet of ammo, I'm happy to find out how many it actually takes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Stay away from the Century crap, but you probably already knew that. Not exactly true. A lot of earlier Century fals were just imported by Century not built by. My L1 was built an a Imbel receiver that was imported by Century. Also there are semi auto Canadian built L1's that were only imported by Century. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evildog 20 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Just my 2 cents, but how many saigas have you seen carried worldwide as a MBR? FAL's have seen action all over the world with less than highly trained troops carrying them, so they had to be built tough and reliable. Yes the saiga is based roughly on an AK platform so it should take the same abuse. But no real world time put in as a saiga though. I've got 2 FAL's, one that was done by DSA and i wouldn't trade them for the world. Parts are in plenty and mags are plentiful and cheap. Yes you do need to know which FAL you have but DSA can help with this and make it easy. I'd suggest before you buy either is to find a person who has one of each and take them out to shoot and decide for yourself.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) I like FALs. But.. Being carried as an MBR in a military is hardly much concern given some of the utter crap I have seen toted by troops. First five years of the Stoner Rifle anyone? (some will say why stop at five years) Egyptian AKs in much demand as a quality MBR? FAL can be a fine rifle if its of good manufacture. Saigas are of known and proven quality, not based loosely but very faithfully on the AK design caliber withstanding. Neither is perfect but I wouldn't use the military of corrupt governments as a benchmark. Otherwise ours would still issue the M-14. Edited July 17, 2011 by Rhodes1968 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) I think the russian izhmash saiga is way under rated and over looked because it has that "ak/akm" label on it. But if we take a closer look its not your normal "ak" or "akm". The russians at izhmash focused on making a very accurate, more accurate than any other ak/akm style semi auto and they did it. With the saiga in 308 shooting 1 1/2" groups using surplus ammo and 1/2" moa's with a better quality ammo would i call it fairly accurate i don't think so. Years ago when the first saiga's were offered in 308win some shooters were ringing gongs at 450yds with the 16" barreled 308's. I'd like to see someone shoot the 16" and 21" barreled saiga's in 308 out at farther distances to see how really far they can shoot accurately. I think the saiga's are tigers waiting to be unleashed. The saiga's are one of the best quality ak/akm's out there in a sporter wrapper its the best quality the russians can offer us too. I can only benchrest out to 100yds, i wish i had a longer range here to play with it out to 1,000yds. Barrel life and wear?? With the 308win round it depends on what load and bullet weight were using. I think the hotter loads will cause problems with wear in the throat area first. Using the lighter loads the chrome lined bore should last for many rounds more. Then there is a difference with new ammo and brass and steel cased ammo. The chrome lined bore and chamber should hold up with the brass cases but i'm not sure how the many rounds of steel cased ammo will. My point is barrel and chamber life will vary on what were shooting out of it. We can't really perdict it because there are too many variables. If we look at the 7,62x39 round in the ak/akm's were getting 100,000rds + in barrel life. But being its a more powerful 308win round the life will be much less. If we use only the 308win ammo loaded on the low side with the brass case only with the industrial chrome lined bore and chamber of the saiga i would estimate the barrel life to be at least 25,000rds. max with a 12,000 minimum this is my gut feeling. I would check the throat wear and the accuracy, thinking the accuracy would fall off first. The only thing i did to my 6 new saiga's was to lube them with moly. It lessens the trigger pull and smooths it out too. The saiga's action is way smoother too and it cycles faster too. Other wise there bone stock and accurate. UNKN Edited July 22, 2011 by Unknown Poster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I think the only draw back in the saiga is the scope mounting optons for long range shooting. none are that great or as solid as a bolt gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guncats 4 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 I think the only draw back in the saiga is the scope mounting optons for long range shooting. none are that great or as solid as a bolt gun saiga's scope mounting is arguably its strong point against the FAL, at least the saiga rail is on the receiver, not some bolt on dust cover. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Unknown Poster 5 Posted July 23, 2011 Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) When the import first stopped here i grabbed every saiga i could get my hands on for the fear of ever not seeing them offered here again. I picked up a like new hardley shot if shot at all used saiga in 308win with the kalinka scope and rail mount (one piece). Not being familair with this one piece scope/mount i tried to mount it and get it to lock up and it took me forever to adjust the cam tightness so it was mounted and locked up correctly on the saiga. I think thats why the PO traded it in he couldn't get the scope / mount to lock in place correctly. It makes me wonder how many get it right if its that finiky to get locked in place? I took my time to go slow and do it right but i like it now that i understand how it works. UNKN Edited July 23, 2011 by Unknown Poster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Deadeye 325 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) I still think the side rail is not that great for long range shooting past 300 yds. some may work but just 3 rivets is into reciver thicknes metal is not a very solid set up in my opinion. On mine locked down tight I could still flex the scope side to side almost 1/8" by hand. but I dont know mutch about the set up on the fal Edited July 24, 2011 by deadeye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffian72 548 Posted July 24, 2011 Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 Well, a DSA tactical with many custom added features. $2100. Will at Red Jacket did a custom build. $1400. Now remember these were built 6 and 3 years ago. Believe prices now would be 30 to 50% higher. Used as duty weapon and "Hogan's Alley competition. 2 years ago went from being a contestant to a top 2 contender with the Red Jacket Saiga in the 30 caliber class. Was twice the age of most in competition. Lighter and quicker shot placement. Weapon was the difference. Retired after due to MS complications. Used FBMG mags at time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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