docfury 1 Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Ive been having failure to eject problems with my converted Saiga 7.62, and im not sure what the problem is. I get one FTE every 40-60 rounds, with the partially ejected case being pinned between the bolt carrier and the receiver. It never double feeds or loads another round into the chamber, and it easily cleared by pulling the bolt to the rear, allowing the case to fall, and then releasing the bolt and charging another round. I know its hard to diagnose a gun problem over a forum, but I was curious if anyone knew of the most common reasons for failure to eject? (Stovepipe) Is it possible that my FTEs are being caused by magazine angle? When I shaved down the magazine locking tab I feared I took off a little too much, and now I have some wobble side to side with my surplus steel mags. Things I have done to try and fix the situation: Stripped down the bolt completely and gave it a good cleaning, paying extra attention to the extractor (it was filthy, id never taken it down). Cleaned out the gas tube with a shotgun brush, which was also filthy, but I did not try to clean the gas port. I can see some carbon buildup near the gas port, but it is not obstructing it. I wonder if it might be ammo related, because it usually happens when shooting Ulyanovsk. Has anyone known Uly to loaded lightly? If the round was loaded without enough powder, that could cause the bolt carrier not to cycle fully, ejecting the shell casing but coming back forward under spring tension and pinning the round between the carrier and the receiver before it has a chance to fly out. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I want a gun I can depend on, and 1 FTE in 80 rounds might not seem huge, but if that happened when it counted, it could cost me my life. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CPF 80 Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 It may be your batch of ammo. First thing I would do is buy a 20 rd pack of wolf (or whatever) and see if it happens again. If it does, then it isn't the ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stnls1911 55 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Is it possible that my FTEs are being caused by magazine angle? When I shaved down the magazine locking tab I feared I took off a little too much, and now I have some wobble side to side with my surplus steel mags. I wonder if it might be ammo related, because it usually happens when shooting Ulyanovsk. Has anyone known Uly to loaded lightly? If the round was loaded without enough powder, that could cause the bolt carrier not to cycle fully, ejecting the shell casing but coming back forward under spring tension and pinning the round between the carrier and the receiver before it has a chance to fly out. Some of my magazines wobble more than others that I have. I have never had a problem with Ulyanovsk ammo, nor any other ammo I've put downrange with my Saiga. This does seem to be a puzzling problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pjj342 632 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I like 1911, have shot a ton of uly without a single problem. But I have heard of guys who have had some malfunctions, not me though. First take your rifle down. Put your mouth on the opening of your gas block and blow, it shouldnt take much effort and you will hear your breath going into the barrel. If you are straining to blow in there, maybe its partially blocked. Just an idea, Ive blowed in mine before and its not that hard. I was thinking, maybe its your hammer. Has this been happening ever since youdid your conversion? Or has it been done for a while and this problem just popped up after using a couple hund rounds of the uly? I say this because, I put a texas ak trigger group in my conversion. it was a real bitch to file the hammer down to let my carrier move forward easily. I could see that if you did the conversion and the hammer needs some fitting, that that would definately slow down your cycling speed. How hard is it to pull your carrier back, over the hammer? Then does it hang up on it on the way back forward? That could be a problem if its way stiff when being pushed back. Let us know when exactly this happened during the process of your conversion. If it shot well before being converted, you can probably narrow it down to a part you used, probably in the FCG. If it shot fine after the conversion for hundreds of rounds, then you got a bad batch of uly, which Im not sure exists(in my experience) then its probably the ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VladTepes 160 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 does it ALWAYS happen in the same spot in the mag? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 It sounds like the bolt is short stroking. CLEAN that gas system! Do you run a buffer? The thick ones can cause this. Grease the rails with some molly grease and oil the bolt. The round is not fully ejecting before the bolt comes forward,either the bolt is sluggish and not throwing the shell fast and hard enough, or the extractor claw is not releasing cleanly. Check the nub on the rail where the shell hits to knock the shell out of the claw - is it worn / chipped? Have you disassembled and cleaned the bolt? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rob-cubed 74 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 G.O.B. has some excellent suggestions, as does Boomstick. Fuggedabout your mag, feed issues are often mag related but extraction issues are typically not. Rule out bad ammo as a possible cause, but I doubt that's the issue. If the case is making it out of the chamber enough to jam the bolt carrier to the rear, then it's probably short stroking; not enough gas or a carrier hang/bind. It could be a worn or short extractor but that would be unusual on a new gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
docfury 1 Posted July 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Ok, Ill try to respond to as many questions as possible. 1) When did you first notice this happening? Probably after I did the conversion. The FCG I put in was a Tapco G2 from Dinzag I believe that had the hammer pre shaved and polished (so no break in period, smooth off the bat). Before doing the conversion the Saiga ran nearly flawless with Surefire magazines or the factory 10 rounder. I would get the occasional hiccup (double feed)from Master Molder mags that I had modified (shaved mag tab). Shot at 2011-07-19 2) Does the bolt carrier slide back easily? Well, there is a some resistance when the hammer is down, but when the hammer is up yeah it takes a good pull to get the hammer flattened out. Its hard to explain resistance in the written word... I could make a quick vid showing the bolt assembly at work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDJQJXo0QXM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAOr3mLnh7g 3) No it doesnt always happen at the same point in the magazine. Sometimes its in the middle of a mag, or at the end. 4)I dont use a buffer. I will try to apply some grease to the rails. I have been using Hoppes #9 Lubricating oil for the rails, or whatever gun oil I have on hand. 5) Is the nub on the rail chipped? It doesnt appear to be: Shot at 2011-07-19 I have probably close to 1k rounds through the gun, and very few hiccups like ive explained. Its just when it happens it bugs the shit outta me because I want the almighty indestructible AK-47 that I dont have to clean or baby (like my AR-15). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rob-cubed 74 Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Based on the fact that it ran fine before, I think you can narrow it down to the FCG itself being the issue. Tapco G2s do ride up a bit higher and put some additional resistance on the bolt. Do you have the original hammer before conversion? Maybe try substituting that and see if the issue persists. And clean your gas port well with some bent wire or one of those little tools, just to make sure that's not a contributing factor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
docfury 1 Posted August 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Here is an update. I cleaned out the gas system as best I could. I got a paper clip and verified that the gas port in the barrel was open, and I could see the paper clip sticking out inside the barrel. I lubed all the rails, bolt, and bolt carrier, with Hoppes lubricating oil. I fired 120 rounds and had 1 FTE on the 81st round. I checked my rails after shooting they were still slightly moist, which means my lubrication had not burned off. I shot Uly white box FMJ 20 rounds, no problems. 80 rounds brown bear FMJ, and 20 rounds Wolf black box HP. The jam occurred with Brown Bear, so I have now ruled out it being ammo related. The cause of the problem might be the FCG, but im squeamish about putting in the Russian hammer due to parts count. Would it be worth a shot to put some gun grease on the hammer to help the bolt carrier glide over it? Or would that cause a build up in the firing pin channel? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pjj342 632 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Here is an update. I cleaned out the gas system as best I could. I got a paper clip and verified that the gas port in the barrel was open, and I could see the paper clip sticking out inside the barrel. I lubed all the rails, bolt, and bolt carrier, with Hoppes lubricating oil. I fired 120 rounds and had 1 FTE on the 81st round. I checked my rails after shooting they were still slightly moist, which means my lubrication had not burned off. I shot Uly white box FMJ 20 rounds, no problems. 80 rounds brown bear FMJ, and 20 rounds Wolf black box HP. The jam occurred with Brown Bear, so I have now ruled out it being ammo related. The cause of the problem might be the FCG, but im squeamish about putting in the Russian hammer due to parts count. Would it be worth a shot to put some gun grease on the hammer to help the bolt carrier glide over it? Or would that cause a build up in the firing pin channel? You might want to try to take a little steel of the rear of your carrier, on the round lower part (not the round point) that contacts your hammer on the way rearward. Round it off with some light filing then polish the whole lower contact surface to a nice shine, 400 then 600 then some finer sand paper. Then hit it with a dremel polishing wheel if you can. It just seems like something is slowing your action. Sand and polish any contact part on the lower end of the carrier. It wont hurt anything and it just may help. Anything to make its trip smoother. Most aks run dry just fine, although some oil can hurt either. Now that ammo is ruled out, try to make your action cycle smoother, is really all I know to tell you. Edited August 8, 2011 by Boomsick42 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 (edited) How does the rim of the rounds that are failing to extract look? Does the brass look stretched compared to unfired rounds? Does it look heavily scratched at all? Try cleaning out the chamber with some solvent and a cleaning brush on a drill. Could be caused by a lacquer build up over the thousand rounds you have put through it. Might as well take a look at the extractor while you are in there. Edited August 10, 2011 by Hemi348 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I want a gun I can depend on, and 1 FTE in 80 rounds might not seem huge, but if that happened when it counted, it could cost me my life. When the empties normally eject do they fling out more than 10 ft away before they touch the ground? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pjj342 632 Posted August 11, 2011 Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 (edited) Thats a good question 7.62, I know mine land around 10-20 feet away. If they are landing much closer than that, your action is definately slowed down for some reason. I dont have any more useful suggestions, Im stumped. Edited August 11, 2011 by Boomsick42 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
docfury 1 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Alright, this mystery might be solved... maybe. I took the rifle out this past weekend and put 60 out of 60 down range, no problems. This was in stark contrast to the time I took it out previously, where it failed to eject 3 times in 40 rounds. Im hoping that its fixed now, after a shooting three boxes flawlessly, but only time will tell. Here is what I did: -I lightly sanded then polished the rails in the receiver. I did the same to the bottom of the bolt carrier, as well as the rail slots. -I cleaned out the bullet chamber on the gun (I had never done this before). I used a power drill and a bronze brush, got it sparkling. -I had previously taken the bolt apart and cleaned it thoroughly, paying close attention to the extractor. -I removed a nut and bolt on the underside of the hammer that I had used to install the trigger guard. I discovered that the hammer was making contact with the nut, and it was quite visible as the nut had become misshaped from the hammer hitting it and there were metal shavings on the backside of the hammer. I shaved down the small bolt to make it as small as possible and still fit inside the receiver, and locked in place with loctite. I really think it might have been that trigger guard nut sitting too high and it was making contact with the hammer when the hammer was being slammed down by the carrier. I think this little bit of contact could have thrown the entire rhythm of the gun off. If the bolt carrier was forced slightly more upward than usual, this could create friction along the rails and slow down the carrier, thus the failure to eject. So a word to the wise, if you buy one of these: http://store.carolin...uard-DIY/Detail It might be advisable to shave the nut and bolt down that sit under your trigger (I have a tapco trigger installed, which might make a difference). Edited December 7, 2011 by drfury Quote Link to post Share on other sites
imarangemaster 315 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I think you discovered the cause. Good job working it out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Had the same problem on my first build, when testing before final assembly,I had the trigger guard temporarily held together with screws. Found the problem, replaced screws with rivets and everything worked perfectly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rnemhrd 165 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Good job detective. I used the factory trigger guard and slid it under the mag release drilled and bolted it there leaving a hole where yours is bolted.I thought about a plug or bolt in that hole to plug it but now know to watch the clearance there. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
admbleg 35 Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Glad you figured things out... One thing I noticed when you were firing from the bench was the pressure you were putting on the magazine causing it to angle. This can cause jams, it happens in AR's as well. Food for thought. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
docfury 1 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Fix pretty much confirmed. I went back to the range again this weekend, put another 60 rounds down range, flawless ejection. 120 out of 120, im calling it good. Glad you figured things out... One thing I noticed when you were firing from the bench was the pressure you were putting on the magazine causing it to angle. This can cause jams, it happens in AR's as well. Food for thought. Thats my cousin in the video; i know better Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigtwin 219 Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 Good job on finding the malfunction. Glad to hear! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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