SHTF pistol

[Heath_h49008 442]

+1 buff

 

Read the descriptions of how it went down in Libya, Egypt, and other places where modern societies have gone into collapse. People behave in predictable patterns,1 riots, 2 lawlessness, 3 martial law, 4 restoration or anarchy of small warlords.

[YARP 300]

I decided to stop replying after he said he was going to walk down the street waving a white flag. To be honest I wouldn't shoot you, but my more redneck then me neighbor would. In his words "I don don like peoles zet I donno".....in short you are not one of the six people that he knows or associates with, there fore your gun is now his by way of gun shot wound.

[sickness 89]

I decided to stop replying after he said he was going to walk down the street waving a white flag. To be honest I wouldn't shoot you, but my more redneck then me neighbor would. In his words "I don don like peoles zet I donno".....in short you are not one of the six people that he knows or associates with, there fore your gun is now his by way of gun shot wound.

 

What I said was if I HAD to walk down the street, I'd have a white flag - to me that projects more of a non-violent sentiment than walking around with a concealed weapon where you don't know what the person's intention is. But really I'm just playing by your hypotheticals, because you wouldn't catch me walking anyhow.

 

And those types of folks like you describe would likely kill someone who appeared unarmed anyway.. Crazy fuckers with rifles are EXACTLY the reason why you need a rifle. Scavenger sorts of people looking to kill others to take their shit will kill you whether you're armed or not, just to see what you have.

 

Anyhow, suffice it to say.. I'm 36 years old and I'm - God willing, just 6 or 7 years out from retirement. I have what I need, and then some. My plan isn't to run around scavenging for anything. I wasn't raised that way. I was raised to work hard, and live lean. Here it is 2011, and I've never owned a real cell phone. I keep a pre-paid in my car for emergencies. Never saw the need to take on the monthly bill.

 

How you live, dictates how you survive. And I like my chances just fine.

[sickness 89]

If you are in a gunfight, and you finish it positively enough to worry about the next one, you will have the losers gear and time to bend down and pick up your mag. The ground is not a black hole. If you have cover, and a bit of time to put a dropped mag in a pocket, (notice I didn't say empty: tac reloading is something you need to learn) great. If not, you have bigger issues than the loss of a mag and a few rounds.

 

If you fight to the death, sure.

 

But have you contemplated that sometimes it makes your survival more assured if you DON'T fight to the death? Maybe fight just enough to grab a bit of food, and then flee?

[dashowdy 141]

Now we are getting into tactics, the ideal situation in shtf is to avoid unneccesary human contact outside of your family, trust absolutely no one. I would not shoot someone just for coming down my street but you can bet I will have a barrel or two pointed in there direction. It kills me how many people invision epic gun battles in these types of scenarios, chances are if you have to kill someone it will not be more than 10 yards away, it will happen quickly, and it will happen with someone that is coming off as friendly. If it is at a point where you need to take on a crowd or there is street to street fighting then it is time to get the fuck out of dodge.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I'm not convinced on the room clearing aspect though. Not in the slightest. In this situation, you're lurking through tight close quarters areas where an enemy may be lurking around any corner. You might surprise each other and "bump" into each other in a very tight space.

In this situation, it is very easy to knock a handgun out of your hands, or grab on to it and get the muzzle pointed back at you. An enemy hurling or dropping a large object can easily make you take a dive and you may instinctively need your hands free and you'll drop your gun.

...

Furthermore, if you're using your pistol properly, it will be at arms length out in front of you while you look down the sights. The muzzle of your gun will be right about where the muzzle of a 16" carbine is in proper position. Similarly, if you point shoot, you'll drop your pistol and the muzzle will be right about where a carbine's muzzle would be when shooting from the hip...

 

I'm not saying that Suarez is the end-all-be-all of combat pistol technique, but you should check this out, sickness:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc

[sickness 89]

A single shot requires no magazine and is the epitome of reliability! Therefore there is no reason to ever need a semi-auto because reliability trumps firepower and there will never be a need to defend against more than one target in SHTF (oops, a Semi without a mag is still a single shot and a functioning weapon that can still lay down firepower, but not at the uninterrupted rate as before).

 

Sorry, but you're being an ass. I never said anything like that. Quite the contrary.

 

What I actually said is that if my primary weapon will be a RIFLE, then I want a revolver as my backup. If it is prudent or necessary to take a handgun as my primary, then I want a semi. Go back and look at the thread..

 

Nobody will ever need to resupply food, clothing, antibiotics/medicine, fuel, ammo or communication devices more than 50 feet away from their impenetrable concrete bunker - so there is no need to ever veer into unknown territory.

 

Never said that either.

 

If there is a police state that arises (maybe similar to post-Katrina, maybe worse), you think you won't be taken out as a threat for openly wearing a rifle with a white t-shirt on it?

 

What I think is, I wouldn't be walking around in all likelihood in the first place. If I HAD to leave my home, I'd have a definite destination in mind, and then I would weigh whether I should be armed at all, and what sort of gun I should have. I don't discount carrying a rifle, because frankly - by the time I need to leave home (my place is very well stocked) if society hasn't righted itself, virtually anyone I see is going to be a threat, and with just a handgun I'll be easy pickings for someone else with a rifle.

 

If I'm fleeing a disaster area trying to get to a police headquarters to get a warm blanket and a free hot cup of coffee? Sure. I take a handgun, and as that is my PRIMARY, as I've said in other messages, it would be a semi.

 

Obviously I disagree with your view on the purpose of a side-arm and the advantages of concealed carry.

 

No. Actually we don't disagree all that much. I'd LOVE to have a reliable, concealable weapon with a rifle's power, reach and accuracy. You favor the ability for concealment, I favor range and power.. you compromise one way, I the other. Why you're getting so upset about that is beyond me. Does Glock have a Church or something?

 

In my situation, as I've said, as long as my home is intact, I'm good to sit tight for quite some time. I won't need outside water or food, and as long as one of my two coleman stoves is working, I've enough propane for 2 months without rationing. If the SHTF, and 2 or 3 months later things are WORSE, and I have no definable idea where I need to go to help myself - i.e. there are no cops with blankets and hot coffee for me?

 

Yeah. In that unknown situation, I'm grabbing a rifle and a revolver, because I want to know that come hell or high water .. I can ditch my rifle, pack, and whatever the hell else.. and RUN with a gun that is functional standalone. I'll concede, once again, that there are OTHER situations for which a semi-auto pistol is more appropriate.. like when you're heading out to find the cops for your free blanket and coffee.

 

Also, you keep putting words in my mouth and aren't actually paying attention to what I write. Several places I've agreed that a revolver is a bad choice and a semi-auto is the way to go. But yet you still started with condescension, for no reason. You obviously feel strongly about this. I'm sorry that my choices for my life offend you so.

 

Having a military science background leads me to believe that staying in an urban environment is dangerous and unnecessary in a SHTF scenario or any other combat situation. Keep in mind the decaying dead and lack of water and waste management will start to spread disease rampantly after about 2-6 weeks and the second wave of widespread deaths will start if people are still in close confines. If SHTF lasts longer than that, there will be pockets of survivors in the urban environment that are looking to resupply themselves or defend their cache until it becomes TEOTWAWKI or a police state takes over.

 

I agree 100% here. One of the many reasons I'm happy to own two homes outside of urban areas (one in AZ that I bought from my Uncle for song when he retired, and the house my wife inherited from her parents in NH). Plus we have our winter home in FL, which is in an urban/beach area. My wife is very paranoid about a Katrina type situation in FL, but she loves the beach and the ocean, so we keep the house well stocked even though we don't spend all that much time there.

 

Maybe this is why my perspective is so different than most.. I never have to wander aimlessly.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I guess I am abnormal that when SHTF I can't just move onto one of my other 3 houses with running water, sewer & power and unlimited food supplies after the grid goes out.

 

Keep in mind that a housefire down the street will likely turn into the entire neighborhood burning when the fire department doesn't exist anymore.

 

If the grid goes down, we are less than three days from being back to the stone age. Police and fire departments aren't going to help you if it really hits the fan. If they still do exist, carrying a rifle is going to make you a target in the forementioned police state.

 

Being mobile is necessary when there are people killing each other for a loaf of bread and intentionally and inadvertently burning buildings down because they want to stay warm or cook food when the heater and oven aren't working (most wood pellet stoves that are mandated in lieu of fireplaces in many urban areas require electricity to run the fan and igniter). Thinking that you won't have to go out for supplies and you can carry all the food and water you need for months on your back is ignorant. Fuel is portable energy when there is no electricity and a tank of gas isn't going to last very long. FYI, One large solar panel generates enough electricity to power a lightbulb during the bright part of the day. If you are "off the grid", you better have a fuckload of solar panels and a means to protect them if you are running refrigerators, water pumps, or any other typical consumer electronics.

 

 

I'm not upset, but I do feel that your arguments against magazines (that you will inadvertantly lose them and that they wear out) is a poor reason for giving up firepower they offer. I feel there are flaws in your logic when it comes to being mobile and needing supplies.

 

And yes, the Church of Glock has waged a jihad on the Revolverites whose dedicated philosophy of combat was nullified in the early 1900's by John M. Browning.

[sickness 89]

I guess I am abnormal that when SHTF I can't just move onto one of my other 3 houses with running water, sewer & power and unlimited food supplies after the grid goes out.

 

Well, I am certainly abnormal as far as my resources that way go.. but wandering around scavenging just puts you in competition with WAY too many other people. If I didn't have my set up, I'd plan on getting into a remote forest area and hunting or fishing. Or if I'm within a day's drive of the the coast, I'd buy a sailboat in order to fish.

 

My houses aren't mansions or anything.. hell my place in AZ has no real source of water at all, except what is stored on the property and in the plethora of cacti my uncle cultivated nearby. It is little more than a large shack, with a basement really.. but it is way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, so that is good. It does have a generator, radio, and dry food though. One of these days I have to really overhaul that place. Most of my family was survivalists. My grand dad had an underground nuclear shelter, and my uncle and Dad grew up with those values, which were passed on to me. Unfortunately, my grandmother sold the cabin with the bomb shelter when I was an infant. I sure wish that was still in the family.

 

My wife's family house in NH is well stocked, and its water comes from a well. Food isn't infinite of course.. at least until we get a few animals there. I really hope we get that together before things fall apart. I've been getting even more skitish than usual lately, which is saying something.

 

Being mobile is necessary when there are people killing each other for a loaf of bread and intentionally and inadvertently burning buildings down because they want to stay warm or cook food when the heater and oven aren't working (most wood pellet stoves that are mandated in lieu of fireplaces in many urban areas require electricity to run the fan and igniter). Thinking that you won't have to go out for supplies and you can carry all the food and water you need for months on your back is ignorant. Fuel is portable energy when there is no electricity and a tank of gas isn't going to last very long. FYI, One large solar panel generates enough electricity to power a lightbulb during the bright part of the day. If you are "off the grid", you better have a fuckload of solar panels and a means to protect them if you are running refrigerators, water pumps, or any other typical consumer electronics.

 

Yeah, if you don't have a place to dig in, being mobile is a good idea. I don't know that hoofing it is how I'd plan things out though. A buddy of mine in FL picked up a used 25 ft sailboat for $3000 - sleeps 4 comfortably. Having access to the ocean or a river, this seems like a good fuel-free way to travel, and provides shelter and a certain amount of isolation from other people while you're getting away from problem areas. Depending on your area, and situation, you may be able to successfully fish for food that way.

 

That doesn't help in much of the country, obviously. But even just keeping a good truck or jeep around with plenty of storage treated gasoline gives you a leg up.. and since gas prices will probably hit $16/gallon oh, say right around next Tuesday, it makes sense even just as 'investment speculation.'

 

But really, I think the key thing in any situation is to have an idea where you're going to head to that can provide you with a renewable, or vast food source. Even if you just put together some quality camping gear and head out into a national forest hunting, thats better than waiting around while your stores run out and urban areas degrade into a hellscape and trying to scrape up some left over canned goods at the supermarket.

 

With respect to solar, a good way to deal with that is to buy high efficiency DC appliances and gear meant to operate off of a vehicle. Medicine is the only thing that really MUST be kept cold, and a portable Coleman thermoelectric cooler can easily do that on just a few watts. In fact, Coleman used to make a solar powered cooler which worked really well, especially when coupled with some ice in there too. The Chinese have made some astounding gains with photovoltaic technology in the last 5 to 10 years. Panels are a lot better than they used to be.. I just picked up a portable solar charger the other day. It's about the size of a CD case, and puts out 4W. But you're right, with solar you are going to need a serious energy budget, and you need to be energy conscious at every point.

 

I'm not upset, but I do feel that your arguments against magazines (that you will inadvertantly lose them and that they wear out) is a poor reason for giving up firepower they offer. I feel there are flaws in your logic when it comes to being mobile and needing supplies.

 

Well, I guess the way I'm looking at things is to make sure you have what you need in order to get where you're going. If your plan is to set out on foot to get the supplies you need, I feel you need to rethink that. Figure out how much gasoline you need to get from your home to a national forest if you have no where else to go, and store that much.. plus maybe 20%. As soon as trouble breaks out.. while the cops are still trying to keep shit in order, get out, and get out fast. If things continue to get bad, you'll likely find some other hunters out in that forest with you .. but carrying a rifle in that scenario probably won't be seen as much of a threat as if you're trying to walk one through town or a major urban area.

 

If for whatever reason that isn't possible - like maybe you LIVE in a major urban area, and in the event of crisis you HAVE to walk because of gridlock, then yes I agree absolutely wholeheartedly that you should have a concealed Glock. But I really urge people in cities to rethink that choice.

 

But if you're able to transport a rifle, I think you'd be a fool not to take one. And IF you take one, make it a semi and carry plenty of mags. I take a revolver then because it doesn't need mags, and that allows me to carry more mags for my rifle and of course the aforementioned benefits of being a standalone weapon. Take away the rifle, and its a whole other story.

 

And yes, the Church of Glock has waged a jihad on the Revolverites whose dedicated philosophy of combat was nullified in the early 1900's by John M. Browning.

 

Hmm.. and Browning's middle name was Moses. Shit. Maybe I'm wrong after all

[sickness 89]

 

I'm not saying that Suarez is the end-all-be-all of combat pistol technique, but you should check this out, sickness:

 

Yeah, I've seen a bunch of Gabe's stuff. It is really geared towards the practical fighting that people might typically encounter. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it is needed. But we're not talking about everyday rules here.

 

Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

Why isn't he teaching that? Simple. Because for everyday protection, most folks aren't going to carry a fighting knife that can be easily and quickly drawn in addition to a pistol. On a battlefield, a rifle is the preferred tool. Why isn't he teaching that? Because he isn't concerned with battlefield combat either.

 

The techniques are an EXCELLENT way to use a monkey wrench as a hammer, and sometimes that is exactly what you need to do. But when you have your full toolbox with you, there is no reason to use a wrench as a hammer.

 

Like I said, entry teams use carbines. They are the tool of choice, even for clearing rooms. Are their circumstances when you should transition to a pistol, or even a knife? Of course there are.

 

But it doesn't change the fact that a pistol is really only good for two things: concealment. And getting a rifle.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

If you say so.

 

Personally, I'd much rather have a gun, and I'd still prefer to use that no matter how close my adversary was to me, even if it's just a .22LR. .22LR to the face or other vitals, (perhaps the crotch if I had to fire when still raising the pistol), will ruin your whole day.

 

Ya ever hear that old expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." ?

 

Perhaps if I were a ninja assassin, I'd feel differently.

Edited July 29, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I have 4- G19s (2 are OD ), 12- 15 round mags, and 20- 33 round Glock mags. 9mm is cheap and shot placement is key. I vote something Glock in 9mm. Anything but the 26. I had one and there just wasn't enough to hold on to without adding the +2 floorplate.

Edited July 29, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[superA 289]

I never realized that SHTF had such potential for comedy.

[kdbutler 563]

I'd bet Gabe is surprised to know that he isn't teaching defense against knife attacks, or use of blades in CQC. Wonder if our Suarez and Warrior Talk members will weigh in on this? Nah, probably got better things to do like training and training others to stay alive in a fight. *shrugs*

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

A knife requires you to be within arms reach, though. (Unless you're handy with throwing knives) A knife being best tool when within arms reach from your target is debatable. Personally, I'd take a gun over a knife, 10 times out of 10.......unless I'm eating dinner. Even with semi-autos, you can still make 1 contact shot and not really have to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery. You can push on the back of the slide with your thumb, and fire off 1 shot. The pressure from your thumb on the back of the slide keeps it from going out of batter, in the case you make muzzle contact with your target. It might not end the assault, but it should give you time enough to back away and rack a new round and start firing semi-auto again.

 

When I first heard about it, my first thought was "No way, it will break your thumb!". Nope. Seen it done, and it works (it was a Glock 9mm). Check out some YouTube vids.

[kdbutler 563]

Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

Even with semi-autos, you can still make 1 contact shot and not really have to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery. You can push on the back of the slide with your thumb, and fire off 1 shot. The pressure from your thumb on the back of the slide keeps it from going out of batter, in the case you make muzzle contact with your target. It might not end the assault, but it should give you time enough to back away and rack a new round and start firing semi-auto again.

 

When I first heard about it, my first thought was "No way, it will break your thumb!". Nope. Seen it done, and it works (it was a Glock 9mm). Check out some YouTube vids.

 

I'll be dammned. Learn something new every day. Thanks Shooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjOgllV4TQ

[sickness 89]

...Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

If you say so.

 

Personally, I'd much rather have a gun, and I'd still prefer to use that no matter how close my adversary was to me, even if it's just a .22LR. .22LR to the face or other vitals, (perhaps the crotch if I had to fire when still raising the pistol), will ruin your whole day.

 

Ya ever hear that old expression, "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight." ?

 

Perhaps if I were a ninja assassin, I'd feel differently.

 

Heh. Yeah, I was surprised too.. but the statistics don't lie. Even with medical attention, gunshot victims are more likely to live than knife victims by are very large margin. If I recall, it was Ayoob who dug up the numbers on that one.. I'll see if I can find the article.

 

This isn't to say a knife is a better weapon, of course. Because a handgun IS deadly at close range.. just not as deadly as a knife. And at longer ranges out to say 15 or 20 yards, obviously a knife is damn near worthless, unless maybe you can throw it like a ninja. LOL.

[sickness 89]

I'd bet Gabe is surprised to know that he isn't teaching defense against knife attacks, or use of blades in CQC. Wonder if our Suarez and Warrior Talk members will weigh in on this? Nah, probably got better things to do like training and training others to stay alive in a fight. *shrugs*

 

I meant in the video in question.

[sickness 89]

 

A knife requires you to be within arms reach, though. (Unless you're handy with throwing knives) A knife being best tool when within arms reach from your target is debatable.

 

Well, yes.. of COURSE a knife requires you to be within arms reach, and that is the only situation in which I referred to using a knife. I didn't say a knife was better overall. It always amuses me in these threads how people read more, or less than what it actually written.

 

And yes, I suppose there is room for debate based on which sort of weapon your enemy has, and how to leverage your strengths and weaknesses and so forth.

 

That isn't the purpose of this thread, though it is a fascinating topic. I was genuinely surprised to learn how much more deadly a knife is within its range.

[Heath_h49008 442]

A knife on knife fight is, in most cases, a contest to see who bleeds out LAST. Knives are tools first, weapons farther down the line. Unless your opponent is unarmed, or totally inept, you both have a real problem. Grab a buddy and two sharpies and go at each other for 20 seconds. (That's how long each of you would still be fighting even if you stabbed each other in the heart with you first hit) At the end count the lines and where they are, and try to imagine how much damage each of you would have just sustained. Tell me who won, or if you both just lost. (An instructor of mine did this to us once, and I never forgot it.)

 

 

Also...

 

If you fight to the death, sure.

 

But have you contemplated that sometimes it makes your survival more assured if you DON'T fight to the death? Maybe fight just enough to grab a bit of food, and then flee?

 

No, and I never would. If you think you are in the 1980's A-Team universe, where you can have a firefight, run around stealing or whatnot with bullets flying and nobody dies, you are fucking insane. I almost suspected you to be a child... but most children have at least played paintball once or twice and know how firefights work. As fun as it has been to hear you regurgitate crap you read on the internet, you might do yourself a favor and read some history, instead of the geniuses at Glocktalk, Arfcom, or Zombiesquad who are too morbidly obese to know any better either. If you need to use a weapon, you better finish the damn fight, because they will. Flee? Unless you are the one robbing someones home, business, or farm, where are you going to flee to? Your back is bulletproof? People won't follow you to stop you from doing it again, get their stuff back, or to just kill the fuckwad who just robbed and shot at them?

 

You have a resource here in people that HAVE trained, some who have actual combat experience, with shotguns, SMGs, carbines, rifles, and pistols. This site attracts people so into firearms we build them ourselves. Instead of telling these guys how silly they are, take a class, get a perspective beyond fantasy, movies, or what you see SWAT teams and SEALs use. Honestly, this isn't a pissing match of opinions, it's good people trying to help other people make decisions that can save their lives.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Heath_h49008

[sickness 89]

 

If you fight to the death, sure.

 

But have you contemplated that sometimes it makes your survival more assured if you DON'T fight to the death? Maybe fight just enough to grab a bit of food, and then flee?

 

No, and I never would. If you think you are in the 1980's A-Team universe, where you can have a firefight, run around stealing or whatnot with bullets flying and nobody dies, you are fucking insane.

 

And that says it all. You can go ahead with your "kill or be killed" attitude ready to fight the entire world. Rational people will flee if their main goal is survival and they have the opportunity.

 

I'm not talking about A-team bullshit with no one dying.. I'm talking about something like you and yours show up looking to scavenge somewhere for food, and a larger gang of better armed people do the same. Go ahead and fight to the death to make sure you can pick up your Glock mags. That's really fucken brilliant.

 

If you need to use a weapon, you better finish the damn fight, because they will. Flee? Unless you are the one robbing someones home, business, or farm, where are you going to flee to? Your back is bulletproof? People won't follow you to stop you from doing it again, get their stuff back, or to just kill the fuckwad who just robbed and shot at them?

 

I think this whole response makes it is clear that you are only capable of looking at tactics in a SHTF scenario in an confrontational way.

That is pretty disturbing.

 

You need to STOP thinking in terms of intentional combat (cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, good guys and bad guys) and start thinking of it in terms of groups of people who would RATHER NOT FIGHT, but will damn sure ante up for it if they have too, and are generally scared shitless. As you compete for resources against such "foes", you have to realize that most folks are NOT looking to kill you, they are are looking to give themselves the opportunity to live. If letting you and yours run off with a few cans of beans lets a larger group waste less ammo and take less risks, so that they can now occupy that supermarket for more time, that is their best option.

 

And your best option is to fucking run.

 

The horror of a SHTF scenario is NOT that it becomes all out war and good guys vs. bad guys. Its that it becomes GOOD guys vs. GOOD guys, and everyone against the psychos.

 

And news flash .. if you're telling me that you'd willingly engage a larger, better armed group without TRYING to retreat.. that makes YOU one of the psychos.

 

 

Honestly, this isn't a pissing match of opinions, it's good people trying to help other people make decisions that can save their lives.

 

Hey man, I didn't want a pissing match. I gave my opinion of what I'd take. I'd have left it at that. Other folks started the pissing match. You just happen to agree with them, so you're calling me out. But don't think for a second I don't see through that shit.

 

You can assume whatever you like, but the truth is I have had training. The difference between you and I, apparently, is that I recognize the limits of the doctrines that I have been taught. I recognize that those doctrines are created and apply with certain situations and realities, and not others. Doctrines are not realities.. they are tools to deal with reality. The doctrines taught for battlefield combat are much different than the doctrines taught to for riot control, for example, because the realities, enemies, and goals are different.

 

Not that this point is even particularly relevant, because none of my instructors ever indicated that fighting to the death is absolutely necessary to SURVIVE. That is not a survival strategy, it is a military doctrine taught to people whose job is to accomplish a MISSION.. a mission that has more importance than an individual life, against a similarly trained force with the MISSION to stop them. It is a doctrine taught to victims of violent crimes against aggressors who very well may be psychotic and cannot be stopped with anything less than death.

 

On the other hand, food rioters, by DOCTRINE would not be met with lethal force, for example.. because such rioters are looking for food, not necessarily someone to kill.

 

See the difference?

 

Retreat is a viable way to survive. Even in military circles. It happens all the fucking time. It isn't me whose invoking A-Team bullshit.

[Heath_h49008 442]

Well, if you are in a running retreat, I doubt you're going to be dropping many mags reloading in a fight. You seem to imagine a scavenging party meeting another.

 

A: That's a group vs a group. Welcome to gang combat, and do you control that territory? What the fuck are you doing there? You aren't talking about rational defense of self in 3rd world shitholes, you're imagining a scene from a fucking movie. Nothing in the world is ever unclaimed or unowned. It doesn't really matter if its a corner to sell on, or that boarded up building, someone thinks it is "Theirs". The worst SHTF scenario would be what happens in major wars, invasions, or disasters. No infrastructure, no communication, limited resources. That can last a few days to weeks before one group or the other walks in to take control. Time to pick a side, or get the fuck out of Dodge. People with waving guns who are not in the right uniform, be it gang or military, get shot or disarmed. (See: Katrina, WWII, LA riots, or any other conflict in human history.) If you think it's a good time to loot, and run into a bunch of other morons doing the same thing, you might have the scenario you describe. Congratulations, you are an idiot for doing it in the first place. Dropping a mag is the least of your problems. I guess you should have been able to control the area you were in, or not been there.

 

Somalia and sub Saharan African revolutions never even had the type of situation you describe. As those nations collapsed, people rioted in groups, looted as a mobs, and the areas were taken over by gangs/locals who eventually became warlords defending their areas... but it IS common to the TV/Movies like "Survivors", "The Walking Dead" and most other post-apocalyptic drama. (Read that as "Unrealistic bullshit")

 

Get real. Thugs don't change, there will just be more of them, with more motivation, and less to lose. Authorities will also be there, they will still think they are in charge, they will have an even lower opinion of anyone who disputes that fact (or can), and will have less ability or desire to handle the thugs outside of their immediate area of control. Movies are not reality. You will not be Mad Max, Ash Williams, George Romero mixed with Chuck Norris, or Tank Girl.

[Black3 16]

A handgun simply isn't a SHTF weapon. Yeah, if you find yourself in SHTF situation you need a pistol, but it is for last ditch personal protection; that's really all a pistol is good for in any but the most expert hands.

 

 

Respectfully disagree.

 

In a SHTF situation, the handgun will become very important. If you have to go somewhere, you wouldn't want to broadcast to everyone that you have a gun as it is a good way to get shot.

 

Imagine having to walk down to pick up supplies with a rifle or a shotgun strapped to your back. You would be arrested immediately and have your guns confiscated or be shot and your guns removed from your cold dead hands.

 

Not to say that rifles/shotguns won't be used but they will primarily be used to protect the home.

 

 

 

I just wasn't making myself clear. I almost never go anywhere without a pistol, albeit a small, strictly personal protection, very concealable .380 PPK/S. In a SHTF situation, I would always have it with me, but if I had to go somewhere that I expected armed opposition or if I had to defend me and mine, my rifles and shotguns, mostly my shotguns are my weapons of choice.

 

I agree with you that you're just asking for trouble with a big, black Saiga or similar slung on your back as you go striding into town, so unless you're walking in to clean up the street, a nice concealed pistol is the way to quietly and uneventfully go to town.

[sickness 89]

Congratulations, you are an idiot for doing it in the first place. Dropping a mag is the least of your problems. I guess you should have been able to control the area you were in, or not been there.

 

Wtf. That is kinda what I've been saying here dude. Wandering around trying to scavenge is absolutely last resort.. and if you get to that last resort, you fucked up. Have you're own shit and protect it: with a rifle..figure out how to get to a RENEWABLE food source.. and bug the hell out rickey fucken tick. What you don't do is TRY to be Mad Max and scavenge.. which is what all you fucken guys are ultimately saying is the good plan.

 

But I'm wrong there, because apparently loads of people who think they want to survive spend all their money on guns, ammo, tactical training classes, drop bags, molle packs and who the fuck knows what else, instead of stockpiling food and water and trying to REALLY provide for themselves.. and obviously amongst these would-be commandos, the preferred way to survive is to run around with a Glock scavenging, BUT only areas you can control and know pose no threat, mind you. Because that thar is strategery.

 

You can't have it both ways: you can't say that you NEED to walk around in unfamiliar, uncontrolled territory looking for food, and simultaneously say that if you can't control it you shouldn't be there. You won't KNOW what the hell you're getting into until you're in it.. and if there is an area with food resources, and you need food.. you're going to take a risk. When your belly is empty, it tells you what to do.

 

You are GOING to be in situations you can't control. You better get used to that hard fact right quick. No matter how smart you think you're playing your hand, sooner or later someone is going to get one up on you. You are going to lose and abandon gear. You might even abandon food. If you get yourself into a situation where you are low on ammo, or food, or whatever and you can't bear the thought of abandoning shit like that? Well, then you're going to fight to the death for a fucken fig newton. That is just stupid.

 

Movies are not reality. You will not be Mad Max, Ash Williams, George Romero mixed with Chuck Norris, or Tank Girl.

 

LOL. Coming from you that is fucking hilarious. Mr. Fight to the Death and scavenge with a Glock.

 

I don't intend to be a hero, or a bad ass. Quite the contrary. I intend to run, hide, kill if I have to, or whatever the hell else gets me and mine to our destination far the hell away from everyone else. In all likelyhood, it will be a reasonably uneventful drive while we listen to the radio commentators get increasingly worried about the potential for civil unrest. When that gets tireseme, we'll sing along to some songs and snack on dried fruit and peanuts.

 

I'll fight to the death to protect my family, and the RENEWABLE food sources that sustain us. But I'm not going to get into a shoot out over a month's worth of food, or a fucken few cold beers down at the local quickie mart. That is short term thinking.. or to say it another way: it is no kind of plan.

Edited July 29, 2011 by sickness

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Did you know that knife wounds are FAR more deadly than gunshot wounds from a handgun? They also incapacitate far easier if you know what you're doing. If you are within arms reach like that, your best tool is a knife, hands down..

 

Even with semi-autos, you can still make 1 contact shot and not really have to worry about the slide being pushed out of battery. You can push on the back of the slide with your thumb, and fire off 1 shot. The pressure from your thumb on the back of the slide keeps it from going out of batter, in the case you make muzzle contact with your target. It might not end the assault, but it should give you time enough to back away and rack a new round and start firing semi-auto again.

 

When I first heard about it, my first thought was "No way, it will break your thumb!". Nope. Seen it done, and it works (it was a Glock 9mm). Check out some YouTube vids.

 

I'll be dammned. Learn something new every day. Thanks Shooter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjOgllV4TQ

 

No problem, brother.

[Heath_h49008 442]

You can't have it both ways: you can't say that you NEED to walk around in unfamiliar, uncontrolled territory looking for food, and simultaneously say that if you can't control it you shouldn't be there. You won't KNOW what the hell you're getting into until you're in it.. and if there is an area with food resources, and you need food.. you're going to take a risk. When your belly is empty, it tells you what to do.

 

You are GOING to be in situations you can't control. You better get used to that hard fact right quick. No matter how smart you think you're playing your hand, sooner or later someone is going to get one up on you. You are going to lose and abandon gear. You might even abandon food. If you get yourself into a situation where you are low on ammo, or food, or whatever and you can't bear the thought of abandoning shit like that? Well, then you're going to fight to the death for a fucken fig newton. That is just stupid.

 

 

Find the quote where I ever suggested anyone scavenge/loot, or said I even own a Glock.

 

You started talking shit about running a revolver. Fine, to each his own. But proceeded to follow it up with the craziest line of empty-gun, weak hand incapacitated, fantasy scenario I have ever heard trying to tell the OP, Buff' and YARP they didn't know what they were talking about. These are good guys trying to answer the OPs question from their experience and training.

 

Revolvers have both a weaknesses in capacity, and in the rather delicate mechanism that rotates the cylinder. They are NOT infallible. Modern mags are not failure prone, or very rare. There is a reason revolvers are no longer used as front-line police or military sidearms. You are not the only guy in the world who has thought about a gunfight, or even one of the people who practices practical defensive shooting at a local club. If you were, the points you are trying to dismiss would be self evident when you looked at your scores and realized it took you 2-3 times as long to finish a stage.

 

The knife stuff wass just as weird, but anyway...

 

You need to listen to people like YARP, Shooter, Buffet destroyer and the others, instead of trying to imagine a fanciful scenario where your internet sourced ideas would work. You will have to go out at night sometime, have to come and go from your secure home or work. You will have to defend yourself, or make smart choices so you can avoid the conflict.

 

And for gods sake stop using the word "Scavenge" like it was a reality. You have never, and will never, be an armed scavenger protecting his family "out in the country" after you "Bug out", when the "SHTF". But, you might be a guy with a family, trying to live like a human in a nation that has gone to shit where the cops aren't paid, privately owned guns are banned, criminals are a whole lot more aggressive and numerous, and your money doesn't buy shit. If you own land "in the country", you might have a shot at subsistence farming... you DO own cleared land, equipment, and have experience farming, right?

[sickness 89]

 

Find the quote where I ever suggested anyone scavenge/loot, or said I even own a Glock.

 

You're right. I apologize. I was confusing your post with someone else's.

 

You started talking shit about running a revolver. Fine, to each his own.

 

Correction. I started 'talking shit' about running a semi-auto rifle, with a the handgun seen as backup; and I argued for a revolver in that situation. Further, I conceded that w/o a rifle, a semi pistol is the way to go.

 

Folks proceeded to tell me that a carbine is not good for indoors use, yet no one bothers to answer my query why pros use it as an entry weapon... but that is fine because it is a rhetorical question, and we all already know the answers. I understand the risks of walking around town with a rifle and broadcasting that you have a weapon, but I don't appreciate people blowing smoke about how a carbine is a handicap indoors. I wasn't born yesterday. If I was FORCED to go out and about during serious violent activity or some shit like that, I'd consider carrying a carbine, and I stand by that.. it all depends on what it is like outside, or more precisely, what I think it is like when I make the decision.

 

Revolvers have both a weaknesses in capacity, and in the rather delicate mechanism that rotates the cylinder. They are NOT infallible. Modern mags are not failure prone, or very rare. There is a reason revolvers are no longer used as front-line police or military sidearms.

 

I never said revolvers were the greatest handguns in the world, nor did I say they were infallible. I said they are standalone - as long as you have the gun, and ammo - thats all you need. I like this property of revolvers when I have another semi firearm. Carry a primary, and carry mags for it. I don't like the idea of carrying a secondary and more mags. The "more mags" should just be mags for my primary.

 

It really seems like you guys are projecting some rabid pro-revolver stance on me that you may have heard elsewhere.

 

Are modern mags failure prone? No, I wouldn't say they are PRONE to failure, any more than the cylinder on a revolver is prone to fail.. but the feed lips of every mag I've ever seen are pretty delicate. The main saving grace, in as much as it is one, is that it isn't terribly difficult to fix bent up feed lips most of the time, whereas it is much more difficult to fix a busted revolver. The flip side, is that you can still load up a mag that won't feed right and end up trusting your life to a weapon that will jam without realizing it.. but you'll know pretty instantly when your revolver is broke and can't be trusted.

 

I was taught that if you inadvertently drop a mag, you shouldn't put it in your gun unless you absolutely have to, not just for this reason, but that was part of it.

 

The knife stuff wass just as weird, but anyway...

 

I guess. It is a truth (or well, at least the article I read seemed reasonably substantiated) that knife wounds are more deadly than gunshot wounds though, which is all I ever said. It sort of makes sense, if you think about how much a clean slice can bleed, compared to a puncture wound. But I guess long slices are more likely to cut nerve and tendon and incapacitate than bullet holes do.

 

You will have to go out at night sometime, have to come and go from your secure home or work. You will have to defend yourself, or make smart choices so you can avoid the conflict.

 

Heh. This makes me smile, because I rarely go out NOW.. I can't imagine how you'd get me out of the house when the town is on fire. I work from home, and so does my wife. We leave daily for recreation, and to buy food.. but both of these are really optional. We leave because it sucks to sit at home all the time, and because it sucks to eat pasta and other dry food all the time. But it would suck more to leave and face gunmen. But when I leave, even today, I carry a handgun. And it isn't a revolver. Once again, I like a revolver as backup. I don't know what is so hard to grasp about that.

 

And for gods sake stop using the word "Scavenge" like it was a reality. You have never, and will never, be an armed scavenger protecting his family "out in the country" after you "Bug out", when the "SHTF".

 

We finally agree on something. I won't ever have to scavenge. But if I did, I like to think I'd be man enough to eat a bullet before taking advantage of others.

 

But, you might be a guy with a family, trying to live like a human in a nation that has gone to shit where the cops aren't paid, privately owned guns are banned, criminals are a whole lot more aggressive and numerous, and your money doesn't buy shit.

 

Uhm. Other than the fact that the cops still get paychecks, I'm pretty sure we're almost there already.. but I get your meaning.

 

If you own land "in the country", you might have a shot at subsistence farming... you DO own cleared land, equipment, and have experience farming, right?

 

Uhm, yes, of course. The spread was a dairy farm, until rather recently, actually. They raised cattle and grew feed. I don't have experience with real farming.. most I've done is raise some chickens when I was a boy and get eggs for my Mom. But my wife does. It is her family home, and she helped out on the farm for a number of years as an adult. The other thing I've got going for me is that I am friends with a brilliant young girl in college right now for farming technology specializing in small scale sustainable farms. I've been best friends with her older brother since high school. She's kind of a hippie, but I don't hold that against her because she is sweet, and something of a rebel. Anyhow, when she finishes her whole program in a few years, she wants to move to our place and set something up with the school for internships, so we'd get free labor to boot. I'd love to do that, obviously, but I'm not sure of the logistics just yet.. but even if that doesn't work out, she's going to help us go over everything to figure out what new crop varieties will grow well in our area, work out reasonable capacities that we could manage, rotation, and plan out all sorts of shit.

 

So, I mean, regardless of SHTF, we want to get that set up anyhow.. to need "nothing from no one" has always been one of our goals, not that it is ever truly attainable, of course.. but I figure that is why its a valuable goal. If you can reach it, you haven't set the bar high enough.

 

I realize I'm fortunate and that I have luxuries most do not.. but if you're going to survive long term, you really need to figure out a renewable food source for yourself.. and that doesn't have to be a farm. That can be fishing, or hunting too.. the advantage of all of them isn't just the food.. by their nature, they tend to put you out of contact with lots of other people.

[Heath_h49008 442]

I'll give you what I'm doing. Go for hay if you are here in the north. Square bale it and keep the alfalfa down to "Horse" levels. The horse people will pay $6 a bale all day long, and it requires the least amount of care/seed/fertilizer for the cash you can make. (Even if it does take more physical labor for 3 cuts a year even if you have a kicker baler) It's about the closest thing to plant it and forget about except for a few weekends a summer. It also keeps the barns warm in the winter if you have at least a few hundred bales. It's a whole lot easier to disk up and plow a hayfield for a garden or subsistance crop, than it is to put IN hay for livestock and wait a year for it to get a good hold. Rich people will always keep their horses, and the vast majority won't start working to get feed beyond calling and writing a check. Just a thought.

 

I have 70 acres that was my grandfathers... it's been fallow for 10 years and run into the ground before that. I'm just trying to get everything running and keep the barns from falling/burning down, or being looted by the local methheads and curious teenagers. Fun stuff while trying to finish my degree.

 

The reason the knife stats are what they are makes sense. Its a knife vs an unarmed person 99.9% of the time. Multiple strikes, on what is most likely a weaker opponent... who may well bleed out before anyone knows anything happened. Gunshots in urban areas bring cops, ambulances, etc and would raise survival rates. Just a guess, but it would explain the stats and jibe with most of the stabbings I have known. Muggings, brawls, or domestic attacks... Do they include suicide by knife like they do suicide by gun for gun violence statistics? Could be another reason, if they do. But knife vs knife is an ugly image in any case. Knives are why I carry a firearm. Crackheads will sell or trade a gun for a fix, and aren't likely to buy ammo or learn how to shoot... but any jackass can buy a 6" razor sharp blade at any dollar store and they don't lock them up at the stores, so to a thief they are free.

 

Cheers,

[Cryogaijin 33]

Depending on the scenerio, either my .22 matchking (accurate little bugger) for taking game, a doublestack tokarev that doesn't exist, for being, well, silly ballistics wise, or my 10mm for stopping big game.

[Kyredneck 1]

GLOCK FOR SURE!!! But I like my Glock 31, 32 or the 33 all 357 Sig caliber but can also with a barrel change be a .40cal because they use the same mags or a 9mm with a barrel and mag change so you actually have 3 handguns in one and the 357 Sig is a bottleneck cartridge and IS the most reliable of all, or at least that's what the experts say.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Kyredneck