S12 double stack mag quick sketch

[Nick89 1]

This is a quick sketch I made after thinking about the compactness of a double stack mag on an S12. Its not perfect and needs a lot of refinement but I wanted to know what you guys think about a double stack mag for the S12. Would you buy one? Is it worth the trouble?

 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a market for this and if I should use my time and resources to create them.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Nick89

[csspecs 1,987]

My understanding is that MDarms patented the means to make double stacks.. So odds are you can't make them.

 

So we have to wait either for Mike to make them, or for the patent to expire in 19 more years.

[lunker 7]

My understanding is that MDarms patented the means to make double stacks.. So odds are you can't make them.

 

So we have to wait either for Mike to make them, or for the patent to expire in 19 more years.

 

 

He may have patented his own method of creating a doublestack magazine, but I can't imagine the patent covers ALL doublestack mag designs. That would be like Ford being the only company that could make a convertible because they made the first one. MD Arms makes great stuff, but I hope others try their hand at doublestacks too. Competition is never a bad thing.

Edited July 22, 2011 by lunker

[Rockina 60]

This is a quick sketch I made after thinking about the compactness of a double stack mag on an S12. Its not perfect and needs a lot of refinement but I wanted to know what you guys think about a double stack mag for the S12. Would you buy one? Is it worth the trouble?

 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a market for this and if I should use my time and resources to create them.

 

I'm sure lots of folks here would be interested in this, I know I would, but it must work flawlessly.

[magsite20 1,664]

Without getting in to the part about possibility of any patent infringements, the first thing is this is for a rimmed shell case, that's a whole other ball of wax than for making a double stack mag for a rimless case like a 223 or 9mm.

 

If you can get a good look at a Kel Tec 22 mag PMR-30 magazine it might show you a few of the other details needed for a double stacked rimmed case mag.

 

It might also be good to note unless you have a pretty good tool shop at your disposal even prototyping this type of project runs into some serious money quickly. Lots of things take time to try and rework and retry, 1st time out mag builds are a real learning curve. (made any feed lips with the lead in for a mag before?)

 

Anyway good luck with it however you choose to proceed.

Edited July 22, 2011 by 20-Mags

[KC913 324]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/44279-double-stack-12ga-magazine-for-saiga-12/

 

Don't know how much longer I can hold my breath. I'm getting a little light headed.

[HART1 92]

This is a quick sketch I made after thinking about the compactness of a double stack mag on an S12. Its not perfect and needs a lot of refinement but I wanted to know what you guys think about a double stack mag for the S12. Would you buy one? Is it worth the trouble?

 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a market for this and if I should use my time and resources to create them.

 

I think your follower design might not work 100%? It looks like it will cause the round to ride hard against the walls of your mag.

Edited July 22, 2011 by ARMOR

[Shadoh 16]

If you ask me these patents are bullchit. I thought the whole idea on a patent was so you could protect an original idea and keep someone from stealing it. These days its only about who has the money to pay the lawyers first.

[AtlSaiga 25]

BTT - yeah we all want double stack mags. 12 rounds or something like. I think MDarms said they are gonna work on quad ak mags for now, so no double 12's for a while.

 

as an aside, why are .22 and shotty shells rimmed? I mean all ammo used to be rimmed but then they all went smooth (dont know the term for non-rimmed cartridges). at some point everyone had to convert, why did 22 and 12 get left behind. Can you imaine what kind of sick mags we could have nowadays without those dang rims!?!?

[Nick89 1]

Thanks for the input guys. And yes its just a rough sketch at the moment lots of trial and error to be had.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the patent would be for a double stack 12 gauge mag but rather for the design and process to make it. It would be just like how we have Surefire and AGP mags.

 

 

[HART1 92]

If you ask me these patents are bullchit. I thought the whole idea on a patent was so you could protect an original idea and keep someone from stealing it. These days its only about who has the money to pay the lawyers first.

 

Amen brother!

I lost my ass on my magwell patent that a is being produced by an arms manufacturer. Just didn't have the money to see it through This is an old crappy video of my second prototype. I took a 91 rifle and converted the caliber to 7.62x39 and made it take standard AK mags and drums.

Fuck! I wish I had all that money back.

Oh well, live and learn.

Edited July 22, 2011 by ARMOR

[Jpanzer 1,265]

I'm beginning to worry the MD Arms doublestack is vaporware....

[lbsrdi 1,078]

I believe that what Mike said was, that he has patented the only way to do it right. (That is an opinion) I say that anyone who thinks they can make a different type of S12 mag, go for it. Simply having a patent does not mean that you have completely shut down the market and no one else can make it. There are too many examples to list. If you have the resources and ability to make a double stack, then make it.

[pedal2alloy 206]

Thanks for the input guys. And yes its just a rough sketch at the moment lots of trial and error to be had.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the patent would be for a double stack 12 gauge mag but rather for the design and process to make it. It would be just like how we have Surefire and AGP mags.

 

To not get discouraged by all of the negativity here, your best bet is to not talk about it much. People with new ideas tend to feel all violated and gang raped up the ass after posting their ideas here.

 

So if you have the time, enthusiasm and resources (like 2 years and 100 G) to see it thru, then I encourage you give it a try.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

My understanding is that MDarms patented the means to make double stacks.. So odds are you can't make them.

 

So we have to wait either for Mike to make them, or for the patent to expire in 19 more years.

 

I'm a little baffled at this post, especially given the fact that you're business is making magazines.

[elvis christ 451]

I'm beginning to worry the MD Arms doublestack is vaporware....

 

+1.

[Caspian 32]

My understanding is that MDarms patented the means to make double stacks.. So odds are you can't make them.

 

So we have to wait either for Mike to make them, or for the patent to expire in 19 more years.

 

LOL, you make and sell double stack mags. Certainly there has been some form of double stack mag patented in the last 19 years. Are you infringing.

 

It's amazing how many patent attorneys we have on this board.

[surfmaster 5]

You cannot patent ideas, only the expression of the ideas. This is why there are many types of titanium firing pins and parts, and not just one. Another double stack magazine design would be welcome, like the way MD Arms and ProMag makes their own Saiga 12 drums. This is great for the consumer.

[Joseph 141]

Well i defiantly agree that, even though the drum is fantastic, he's defiantly bullshiting about have a fully working DS mag, why would you waste tons of time developing a product that will make you tons of money and then when your finished and everything worked perfectly, just decide not to make it and go do something else, seams extremely strange at best to me. maybe he just hates recognition and money? more likely he's got a snag

[yooper14.5 84]

Well i defiantly agree that, even though the drum is fantastic, he's defiantly bullshiting about have a fully working DS mag, why would you waste tons of time developing a product that will make you tons of money and then when your finished and everything worked perfectly, just decide not to make it and go do something else, seams extremely strange at best to me. maybe he just hates recognition and money? more likely he's got a snag

 

 

If I remember right, I read a post where tony rumore testified to them working flawlessly. I really doubt he'd lie.

[Deadeye 325]

Well i defiantly agree that, even though the drum is fantastic, he's defiantly bullshiting about have a fully working DS mag, why would you waste tons of time developing a product that will make you tons of money and then when your finished and everything worked perfectly, just decide not to make it and go do something else, seams extremely strange at best to me. maybe he just hates recognition and money? more likely he's got a snag

 

If i rember mike d is makeing the quads for 7.62 first then s12 doubles

[inzami 36]

So how many rounds will a quad stack AK mag hold? Because Izhmash has had 60-round mag out for some time.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casket_magazine#Casket

[Jpanzer 1,265]

MD Arms strategy is a mystery to me. The S12 doublestacks have been promised to us for well over a year now, and with the low availability of Russian 8 rounders and the great rep of the MD Arms drum he should have struck while the iron was hot.

 

Instead he goes off on a side project for quad stack AK mags (which to my mind is the answer to a question nobody asked)which have still not hit the shelf yet.

 

I'm beginning to doubt we will EVER see a doublestack S12 mag from him, so if anybody else thinks they have a working design, GO FOR IT!

Edited July 24, 2011 by Jpanzer

[FL Thunder Stick 21]

So how many rounds will a quad stack AK mag hold? Because Izhmash has had 60-round mag out for some time.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia....magazine#Casket

 

 

 

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!

 

I want four!!!

 

FTS

[AtlSaiga 25]

Well i defiantly agree that, even though the drum is fantastic, he's defiantly bullshiting about have a fully working DS mag, why would you waste tons of time developing a product that will make you tons of money and then when your finished and everything worked perfectly, just decide not to make it and go do something else, seams extremely strange at best to me. maybe he just hates recognition and money? more likely he's got a snag

 

If i rember mike d is makeing the quads for 7.62 first then s12 doubles

 

 

this.

 

MD can make MORE money with AK mags since WAY more people have AK's. The Saiga market is a niche one, AK's aren't. so the fact that he made the S12 doubles a back-burner project to then focus on the AK quads shows that he is a crafty businessman and does indeed want money. sure, it sucks for us, but whatcha' gonna do. I'm gonna prolly buy an AK quad when they're out - my beloved VEPR is a hungry beast.

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Well i defiantly agree that, even though the drum is fantastic, he's defiantly bullshiting about have a fully working DS mag, why would you waste tons of time developing a product that will make you tons of money and then when your finished and everything worked perfectly, just decide not to make it and go do something else, seams extremely strange at best to me. maybe he just hates recognition and money? more likely he's got a snag

 

If i rember mike d is makeing the quads for 7.62 first then s12 doubles

 

 

this.

 

MD can make MORE money with AK mags since WAY more people have AK's.

 

 

And you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche market? Ok...how many people want or need a quad stack AK mag? My 30 round mags work just fine, and if I want more capacity RPK mags are easy to find.

 

The S12 market is exploding, I don't see the quad stack project as doing anything other than diverting resources and time from what his main focus has always been...the S12.

 

But hey, it's his business, not mine....

[Joseph 141]

i said a snag, not it does work, i mean i'm sure it works but be may have needed to modify the gun or perhaps it doesn't work 100% under adverse conditions or something along that line, but im sure rue moor isn' telling lies, i dont doubt that with a certent shotgun with certant ammo on range conditions a couple mags ran fine.

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Have other historical guns had success with double stack mags using a rimmed round? The British SMLE comes to mind..also the Russian Nosin Nagant. (speelled wrong?) How about the various double stacked .22rf Ruger 10-22 high cap mags?

 

Sounds like a fun project to me. Seems like all you would need to show is a propriatory (sp---again) widget that allows/keeps the rimmed 12 gage rounds from double feeding or from rim over rim stopages and stuff. Or..how about a double drum single feed Saiga 12 drum?

 

Of course one would reach a point when a Saiga 12 50 round drum mag would be way over the top and almost useless because of the bulk and weight if nothing else, but then agin, when confronted with zillions of Zombies...what is one to do? HB of CJ (old coot)

[sickness 89]

MD Arms strategy is a mystery to me. The S12 doublestacks have been promised to us for well over a year now, and with the low availability of Russian 8 rounders and the great rep of the MD Arms drum he should have struck while the iron was hot.

 

Instead he goes off on a side project for quad stack AK mags (which to my mind is the answer to a question nobody asked)which have still not hit the shelf yet.

 

I'm beginning to doubt we will EVER see a doublestack S12 mag from him, so if anybody else thinks they have a working design, GO FOR IT!

 

It is a mystery to me how so many people around here talk shit about MD and his business.

 

He didn't PROMISE anyone anything in regards to the doublestacks. He didn't take anyone's money - THAT is the only promise that counts in business. Any forum comments or otherwise are irrelevant to that basic fact.

 

The AK quad-stacks are NOT just a "side-project" --- it is called diversifying. His only income stream now appears to mainly be S12 related projects. The general AK rifle market is MUCH bigger than the S12 market. Getting new products out and getting a bigger customer base is important for his business. He can make back the cost of development much faster by selling to the larger AK crowd.

 

Maybe - and this is just me talking out of my ass here - but maybe seeing his drum in that ATF import study thing spooked him. Maybe he is hedging against a hi-cap mag ban -- and THAT is why he is tapping the biggest market first. If there is a ban, his income is frozen. The drum is gone. The doublestacks would be gone. His quad-stacks will be gone.

 

He can make the money back and show profit sooner with the AK market. So that is what he is doing.

 

That is good business sense even if some psychos didn't go apeshit with hi-cap mags. That is good business sense even if the S12's future importability is a certain.

 

So.. let me ask you... is it STILL such a mystery?

Edited July 24, 2011 by sickness

[sickness 89]

And you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche market? Ok...how many people want or need a quad stack AK mag? My 30 round mags work just fine, and if I want more capacity RPK mags are easy to find.

 

The S12 market is exploding, I don't see the quad stack project as doing anything other than diverting resources and time from what his main focus has always been...the S12.

 

But hey, it's his business, not mine....

 

How many people want or need a big ass 20rd drum? Apparently EVERYONE.

 

Why the fuck would I want a long ass 45rd RPK mag when I could get a 60rd quad stack? FOR THE SAME REASON YOU WANT A DOUBLESTACK .. it shortens the mag and gives higher capacity.

 

And yes.. the S12 market has always been his core focus -- and THAT is PRECISELY why he needs to diversify: to have revenue streams apart from one single shotgun. A shotgun that now has competition from the MK1919.

 

Its pretty freakin clear dude.. he is making the right choice for his business. If folks don't like that, well.. pound sand. Because you're right .. it ISN'T your business.

Edited July 24, 2011 by sickness