A closer look at the pistol and it's use

[YARP 300]

I decided to write this because of all the folks out there that keep saying "my pistol is what I use to get back to my rifle" and "I only need six rounds because if there's more BGs then that, I'm screwed anyway". This thread is what raised the hair on my back. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/68933-shtf-pistol/

I like pistols, that's no secret. I talk about them non-stop and find them to be incredibly useful not just for defense but hunting and fun as well. This thread is started for discussion and thought process, with that said.....here goes.

 

SHTF-Many folks beleive that there going to grab there rifle, bolt out the door and take on the world, this in general is bullshit. Some folks here have trunk rifles or carry a bagged gun, but most don't. I used to try and find a way to carry the biggest weapon I could all the time, I realized it's virtually impossible. To do any activity or act like a normal person in todays society your going to have to set that bag down at some point which means your not going to have that super duper rifle/weapon on you. In short you will have whatever is on you when it "hits the fan". LEARN HOW TO USE IT. I find it infiriating when people say they will never shoot a longer distance then there longest hallway with there pistol. Truth is if a BG had a knife to your wifes throat and you were 40m away, could you make the shot? Or were you so busy practicing with your rifle that you never got around to that? I see alot of guys that want to know how far away they can hit something with there rifle when they first get in to guns/shooting. I see it the other way around, People should be working the close in distances and working there way out. The pistol is what you will have on you if your a CCWer, get to know it.

Magazine size and revolvers-"I only need six rounds, if I need more then that I'm dead anyway" When I hear that, you've already lost the fight due to your attitude. I was raised being taught that you fight until after your last breath or the "never say die" attitude.

If someone draws a pistol on you these days, they are most likely using a semi-auto and have as many if not more rounds then you do. Most rounds in a reactive gun fight don't meet there target unless you've trained REALLY REALLY hard. Therefore if your going to miss, you may want some extra rounds. Magazine changes take time if your not super fast at it, then do a New York reload (this is faster then changing mags, don't beleive what the tactical ninjas tell you.....it's been proven time and time again). If that's not an option then find a gun with more capacity or a magazine that will extend your capacity. More bullets=better, so what if you didn't use them all?.......wouldn't it be worse if you did and didn't have any left?!! I've taken a personal likeing to carrying a semi and revovler, they both have there positive and negative attributes. Squabling over which one is better is like trying to compare a horse race and a dog race. Pointless.

Distance-people don't like to get in to this discussion often and are usually pretty opinionated. Of course it'd be nice to have rifle in your hands when you need to shoot a 100m, but again will you really be carrying it with you? Last week there was a yote in my folks back pasture, they come and go quickly so there wasn't any time to grab a rifle. I stepped outside and nailed it 80m out, it died. Had I gone to get the rifle the folks next door would have yet again another dead sheep. Life or death situation? I think not, but I'd be whole lot more comfortable taking that kind of shot on an active shooter then most would at those distances. Technology has gotten better, seek it out.

Last but not least, it's hard to conceal a long gun. In a Katrina situation if your on the move that long gun will attract alot of attention, don't think your the only one out there or that other people won't come for you because your carrying a boom stick.

 

There is quality training offered all over the country, utilize it.

[Heath_h49008 442]

Amen.

[magsite20 1,664]

[RobRez 1,895]

I remember watching a program "the American Shootist" I believe, and the fellow on that show could hit a balloon @200 yds. with his snub nosed .38 special. I found that to be quite inspiring. I try to practice shooting my pistols at longer distances these days. I have hit the balloon 4 out of 5 times @ 50 yards with the .38 and I am getting to the point of keeping my shots on a man sized torso target @ 100 yds with my .44 magnum.

It feels great seeing the improvement happen.

I think the pistol is underrated for all around hunting and defense.

I may not need to shoot my .44 100 yards, but if I am in the woods and see mean critters, it is nice to know I can hit my mark before I become lunch!

[DogMan 2,343]

There is a place for both and that's why we have both. But I agree that pistols tend to be under-rated. And SHTF is a broad term so who knows what would serve best. As I said in a previous thread, if I could have only one it would be a large caliber pistol.

[rob-cubed 74]

Agreed, the reality of SHTF is probably going to be very different from a battlefield. A CCW pistol is going to be of much more utility in most of the situations I can imagine. Something you can carry with you at all times that won't make you an obvious target for LEO/military or anyone else--and also won't frighten away anyone that you need to conduct business with.

 

However the pistol is primarily a defensive weapon and I don't see a ton of SHTF value in being able to achieve pinpoint accuracy with one unless you are hunting small game. Most shootings happen over very short distances and with no time to aim. It's point and shoot. While there's nothing more satisfying that being able to chew a ragged hole in a target, your ability to draw and fire more than one round into a target rapidly is most important.

[Joseph 141]

pistols are great everyone should have at least one

 

But rifle VS pistol at 35+ yards, pistol loses, so in the brutal hell scape we will all soon face, its a good idea to stay near as possible to your rifle

Edited July 26, 2011 by Joebanks

[YOT 3,743]

I have to hold my Judge 8'-10' high to hit a 3'x3' target at 100 yards with 45colt ammo. Not practical, but very fun.

[Heath_h49008 442]

pistols are great everyone should have at least one

 

But rifle VS pistol at 35+ yards, pistol loses, so in the brutal hell scape we will all soon face, its a good idea to stay near as possible to your rifle

 

...and rifle vs field artillery, the rifle loses. The problem isn't people saying the pistol has more stopping power, or greater accuracy. It's that in 90% of scenarios, a concealed pistol is a better choice for defensive use. In 99% of scenarios, the rifle will not be close at hand to be used, and if it was would, be a liability. Given any option, and the ability to load out KNOWING the "Shit" had hit the proverbial "Fan", you would have a load carrier, pistol, and carbine (or squad related long arm) But unless you live in a declared war zone, you're gonna look mighty odd. Dracos, PLR16s, and AR pistols are fine, and marginally concealable... But are you really gonna lug all of that around everyday? Are you in the black trenchcoat mafia? Laptop and messenger bags work, but are common targets for thieves, so is it another liability you want to risk?

 

If things go to shit in the near future, US$ collapses, riots, gangs, martial law, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria... you are going to be either defending a home/neighborhood,(carbine/shotgun primary) or trying to look as inconspicuous as possible(pistol primary.) Pistols will still be your best tool, when you are most likely to have a defensive need.(away from home)

 

[dashowdy 141]

I have put about 500 rounds through my converted 7.62 so far and have yet to even try out past 50m, I figure getting good at a short distance with it is much better than starting off at a long distance and shooting from a bench. I am working up to being able to put all my rounds through a 2x4 flashcard then I will move up to 100 and go the same route, practice makes perfect. I have yet to get a pistol but I plan on getting a ruger sr9 in the next few months, thinking about the sr9c for carry purposes, the pistol most definitely has the most practical use in a shtf scenario because whether it is your back up or primary weapon at the moment it is always a good idea to have one.

 

I never shoot off of a rest I always shoot standing relying on the steadiness of my hands to hold me on target as in this scenario chances are you are not going to be able to sit down and get comfy to make a shot. practice,practice, practice, there just are not enough hours in the day.

 

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Of course it'd be nice to have rifle in your hands when you need to shoot a 100m, but again will you really be carrying it with you? Last week there was a yote in my folks back pasture, they come and go quickly so there wasn't any time to grab a rifle. I stepped outside and nailed it 80m out, it died...

 

Nice shot. You get it with your G20? What barrel/caliber did you use?

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

I never shoot off of a rest I always shoot standing relying on the steadiness of my hands to hold me on target as in this scenario chances are you are not going to be able to sit down and get comfy to make a shot. practice,practice, practice, there just are not enough hours in the day.

You need to learn how to shoot prone, both supported and unsupported. If people are shooting back at you the only reason to be standing is because you are moving.

[dashowdy 141]

I understand that but I figure if you can shoot standing or crouching then I should be able to shoot prone as well. Chances are in a shtf situation where I live your not going to have much time to shoot prone. You would need to be getting the hell out of dodge. I will probably practice some of this once I get a little farther along

Edited July 27, 2011 by dashowdy

[YARP 300]

Post-apocalyptic=Yes, the shot was taken with my G20 and a 135gr load moving around 1350fps out of a stock Glock barrel. It went down immediately for all you PETA types that are worried. I will admit that having the RMR on there makes shots like this a breeze for the most part. I was standing for the shot with no support.

Joebanks-35yds? Really? Yeah I'd love to have a rifle, but again I'll state.....You will most likely NOT have that rifle at hand, time yourself in a run to your truck where you grab your rifle, load it, run back to said incident, position yourself and then take the shot. I and other slow people like myself will beat you to the incident......Guaranteed, every time. Being at home is one thing, but what about when your at work? On a date? At the park? Some where along the way someone said pistols are only for short range and everyone believed it. Most pistol calibers are cheaper to buy then rifle rounds, buy a few thousand and hit the range. I bet you'll be surprised what you can do with it!

Yeoldetool-What load are you using? How long is the barrel on your judge? Check out some of the lighter faster loads to reduce that bullet drop a little bit.

Robrez-That guy is sick, I can't remember his name though, do you know it? Was this the same one that turned the pistol upside down and made a 100y shot with ease?

[magsite20 1,664]

Bob Munden is the shooter

[YARP 300]

Bob Munden is the shooter

mine in bold

 

Bob Munden IS A PIMP

[RobRez 1,895]

Last night I broke a couple of ribs on my right side, so I won't be able to really shoot a rifle for a while. That is an unexpected eye opener on how it is good to be proficient with a pistol. What if something happened now? I would be toast without a pistol.

[pony_express1973 183]

Last night I broke a couple of ribs on my right side, so I won't be able to really shoot a rifle for a while. That is an unexpected eye opener on how it is good to be proficient with a pistol. What if something happened now? I would be toast without a pistol.

 

 

I don't feel so bad last night i broke my toe at least that does not affect my shooting........ I agree with OP I carry my pistol everywhere (CCW) the only time i would be able to grab my rifle is if i was at home well what if SHTF when I'm not. That is the OP's point you wont know when if of what will happen when you too far away to get or grab your long gun.

[DogMan 2,343]

Holy crap. This is a bad week for us. Monday night I got slammed into from the rear while sitting at a stoplight. Lots of neck pain and soreness but nothing that would prevent me from shooting anything, however a pistol would be much less punishing.

[SOPMOD 254]

I am twice as likely to go for my pistol as I am a rifle because I can hide it away unobtrusively the second things calm down. I would have no problem running a proper hicap pistol with several extra mags as a primary in an urban environment and have even gone as far as looking at putting a Trijicon RMR dot sight on one of my Glock 17 slides.

 

http://griffinarmament.com/uncategorized/2011/01/13/17/616

 

 

I would not feel "outgunned" running a pistol like in the picture above in UO or structures where shooting distances aren't likely to top 100 yards.

Edited July 28, 2011 by SOPMOD

[ktcm7271 999]

Pistols and long guns are both tools. You need the right tool for the job. A guy down the street shooting at people is best left to the rifle. A burglar in my house is best left to the pistol-I would not want to use my Mosin for all the obvious reasons. Personally, I prefer a large caliber revolver for 3 reasons:

 

1. No brass on the ground, that could matter later.

 

2. One shot from a .357 or .44 will get it done. That matters if the other fellow/fellows sprayed and prayed and it goes to court.

 

3. That one hit from a larger caliber is going to destroy the will of the others when they see one of their own go down in a very gruesome manner.

 

I don't think there is a wrong answer as long as you are very comfortable with your tool of choice.

[Saiga_rom 91]

damn yarp, you should be a motivational speaker. that made me want to take my G19 to the range

 

of course i always want to do that anyway, but i think you know what im trying to say

[YARP 300]

However the pistol is primarily a defensive weapon and I don't see a ton of SHTF value in being able to achieve pinpoint accuracy with one unless you are hunting small game. Most shootings happen over very short distances and with no time to aim. It's point and shoot. While there's nothing more satisfying that being able to chew a ragged hole in a target, your ability to draw and fire more than one round into a target rapidly is most important.

 

We have been pushed to think that the pistol is only a defensive weapon and although I agree that putting multiple rounds on target is extremely important, so is pushing your platform/cartridge to it's limit. The better I do at long range the easier it has become to push the platform at close range.

Kinda like playing HORSE, a half court shot is really hard until you start taking full court shots, then those distances become a breeze.

 

damn yarp, you should be a motivational speaker. that made me want to take my G19 to the range

of course i always want to do that anyway, but i think you know what im trying to say

 

Thanks man!

 

 

Rob, Pony, Dog-You my friends need a safety net to your safety net! Hope you all fix up well and soon.

 

Here's some laughs!

 

 

cause some days are just like that!

[Joseph 141]

Well let me clarify i suppose, " SHTF" is really something that is hard to define for "normal everyday "SHTF" that means your either getting mugged or your house is getting broken into, so Shotgun for the home invasion, or pistol for out on the town but don't like getting robbed.

 

Why call it SHTF if your scenario is just getting mugged in front of the convenience store, in Memphis we just call that friday. But in a real SHTF scenario like total collapse of the US government or hostile takeover of the USA by genocidal police state a la soviet Russia or Nazi Germany, you want your rifle close and ready. sure if your just going to be up against unarmed or minimally armed gang bangers, the pistol will have great profit. but against an effective organized enemy keep the pistol as a side arm, that's what they'll be doing.

 

Your going to get seriously out guned with a pistol, Pistols are completely defeated by almost any type of serious body army and most helmets defeat pistol rounds unless at point blank ranges. it also be defeated by a most types of soft cover. And don't forget in a real SHTF you wont be in a solely defensive role. you will be an offensive force. when staging ambushes do you really want to open up with your glock? i should wouldn't.

 

Pistols are fairly inaccurate ( Compared to the rifle) past 35 yards are and almost worthless past 75 unless its a 12 inch 357 revolver or larger, but at the point why not just get a Draco or AR pistol because you've lost most concealment potential. maybe you can trick shot with your Glock or whatever but the guy with the rifle will have a much faster aim, more effective rounds, greater mag capacity, far superior effective accuracy and deeper penetration. even past 35 yards the advantage of the rifle speed of aim is going to start taking effect but 60+ and your best bet is to run away quickly.

 

I guess it depends on what your definition of SHTF is. if it's you walking around town with a pistol and you don't want people to know your armed then yeah, but what the hell kind of SHTF is that? when your picking your load out based on what people think about your load out, that's basically the number one way to tell your not in a SHTF scenario. but your biggest concern in real SHTF will probably be food, getting out of the city, Establishing a rural AO are trying to get an agrarian lifestyle up and running before you starve to death. oh and fighting off hordes of zombies or bandits or Nazis or whatever the hell your SHTF consist of.

 

The above being said, For current day problems "Non- SHTF". in cities, Pistols are defiantly king.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Joebanks

[20nickels 21]

Perhaps YARP is describing more of a WROL , world without rule of law, situation than SHTF. Like somebody said, it is a broad subject. I agree that the pistol rules WROL.

[20nickels 21]

Great article.

This is a first hand account from Fernando Aguirre of his life after the Argentina Economic Collapse of 2001

Life in Post-Collapse Argentina, Oct. 2005

 

 

What Will WROL Look Like?

 

http://www.mrlockandload.com/What_Will_WROL_Look_Like

[rob-cubed 74]

Completely agree that a pistol is capable of more than defense, and at longer ranges! The point I was trying to make is that someone needs to master both.

 

In most non-battleground scenarios shooting distances are measured in yards if not feet. My pistol training is mostly 25-75' target shooting but in the few force-on-force scenarios I've participated in, it's shocking how all that slow-fire training becomes negligible at close distances. The tendency is to shoot much lower by reflex, and accuracy goes out the window. It's a different mindset and technique vs accurate, placed shots.

 

However the pistol is primarily a defensive weapon and I don't see a ton of SHTF value in being able to achieve pinpoint accuracy with one unless you are hunting small game. Most shootings happen over very short distances and with no time to aim. It's point and shoot. While there's nothing more satisfying that being able to chew a ragged hole in a target, your ability to draw and fire more than one round into a target rapidly is most important.

 

We have been pushed to think that the pistol is only a defensive weapon and although I agree that putting multiple rounds on target is extremely important, so is pushing your platform/cartridge to it's limit. The better I do at long range the easier it has become to push the platform at close range.

Kinda like playing HORSE, a half court shot is really hard until you start taking full court shots, then those distances become a breeze.

[BpS12 512]

Very nice Yarp,

 

I agree, pistols are very under rated, but there is reason to have and be proficient with both handgun and rifle. Situations tend to be fluid. A pistol may be the tool of choice in the offset, but the rifle may quickly be needed until the situation calms/narrows a bit.

 

MOST of us will be carrying a CCL weapon when/if SHTF and IT is what we will need in the get go. For me, my side arms are still there to get me to my long arms. Then I have the choice of either.

 

As for shooting from a rest, I was taught, as an MP, to shoot both supported(ie, off hand palm against a wall, thumb out, wrist of firing hand on thumb) and unsupported(ie, while moving, etc.)

 

It's best to be proficient in both and as varied as possible. If you can think of the situation, it can happen.

[theorangeplanet 968]

I guess I've got to be the traditionalist here and say there is no point I would choose a handgun over a rifle... of course given the choice. The pistol is there when you don't have the choice, as generally, it should always be there when the long gun is not. Like I said to my mom one day before we took a trip somewhere... she remarked at me putting my pistol in my bag and said 'Oh, you won't need that.' I told her that if I ever thought I needed a gun for wherever I might be going... I simply wouldn't go. If I ever feel like I'm going to need a gun, I'll be taking one I can do the most with... and as long as both my arms and hands work its never going to be a pistol, first.

[20nickels 21]

^^ I don't think anybody is saying "pistol 1st". The pistol is just much sneakier and underappreciated for it's abilities. Sure fight your way back to your long gun but what if you can't make it? You will have make do with what you have.