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7N6 Seems Pretty Dirty...


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I have been shooting 7N6 dated 1976 in my Saiga 5.45...three range trips, about 100 to 150 rounds each time.

In cleaning my rifle, I find that this ammo seems to leave a lot of residue. The gas pistol head has splotches of black that is almost like tar...and does not come off with bore cleaner. When I removed the 74 zig zag muzzle break, the muzzle and crown are black and rough with this residue, and again, it dosn't come off.

Anybody else experience this?

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Yes! It is pretty corrosive as far as surplus ammo goes too. If you are in a humid climate, you should clean fairly soon after shooting...I think the most I have waited was like a week, and :eek: I have noticed some corrosion of the gas tube, and on the carrier. Nothing major, but certainly enough to make one clean sooner... :angel:

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Yes! It is pretty corrosive as far as surplus ammo goes too. If you are in a humid climate, you should clean fairly soon after shooting...I think the most I have waited was like a week, and :eek: I have noticed some corrosion of the gas tube, and on the carrier. Nothing major, but certainly enough to make one clean sooner... :angel:

 

That caked on black stuff is NOT corrosive... The primers are the main culprit. The black tar is carbon residue from the burning of the powder. The powder is non-corrosive. You need to literally scrape those deposits off with a flat head (I use the one issued in the cleaning kit) on the inside of the brake. The piston head is pretty much stained and battered. Think of it like little carbon pellets getting blasted against the head of the piston every time you shoot.

 

As far as proper cleaning to not get you panties in a bunch regarding rust inside of the barrel where you can't see, throw some soapy water (mixed with some ethanol helps to evaporate quicker) down the barrel when it is WARM not hot (it will spit back at you!) and the primer salts which are corrosive will dissolve into the water and wash out. Then clean the rifle with Hopp's and oil and she is fine.

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Yes! It is pretty corrosive as far as surplus ammo goes too. If you are in a humid climate, you should clean fairly soon after shooting...I think the most I have waited was like a week, and :eek: I have noticed some corrosion of the gas tube, and on the carrier. Nothing major, but certainly enough to make one clean sooner... :angel:

 

That caked on black stuff is NOT corrosive... The primers are the main culprit. The black tar is carbon residue from the burning of the powder. The powder is non-corrosive. You need to literally scrape those deposits off with a flat head (I use the one issued in the cleaning kit) on the inside of the brake. The piston head is pretty much stained and battered. Think of it like little carbon pellets getting blasted against the head of the piston every time you shoot.

 

As far as proper cleaning to not get you panties in a bunch regarding rust inside of the barrel where you can't see, throw some soapy water (mixed with some ethanol helps to evaporate quicker) down the barrel when it is WARM not hot (it will spit back at you!) and the primer salts which are corrosive will dissolve into the water and wash out. Then clean the rifle with Hopp's and oil and she is fine.

I did not say the black stuff was corrosive, but that the ammo is. Just about anywhere the carbon goes though, the primer salts can wind up being found.

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I fired about 100 rounds of Corrosive and 100 of silverbear lastnight. Hard, heavy shooting. Run and Gun IDPA style drill night. After I was done, I sprayed some windex on and in it.

 

I let it sit a few hours... maybe 6. I was already getting a little rust on the gas block where the tube meets the block.

 

However, cleaning was a breeze and it wasnt as dirty as I thought it was. I filled the bore and the gas tube with Foaming Bore Cleaner and went to town. Only took 3-4 small patches to get the bore clean. 3 big ones for the gas tube and one for the internals. All in all, it wasn't hard at all to clean it.

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Use a wire brush on the top of the piston head, it comes off for me when I do that. The muzzle brake you're just going to have to pick and scrape at unless there's some magic solvent I don't know about. Hoppes doesn't do it and neither does Ballistol. Ether and brake fluid kinda do but the paint comes off with it :ded:

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Yes! It is pretty corrosive as far as surplus ammo goes too. If you are in a humid climate, you should clean fairly soon after shooting...I think the most I have waited was like a week, and :eek: I have noticed some corrosion of the gas tube, and on the carrier. Nothing major, but certainly enough to make one clean sooner... :angel:

 

That caked on black stuff is NOT corrosive... The primers are the main culprit. The black tar is carbon residue from the burning of the powder. The powder is non-corrosive. You need to literally scrape those deposits off with a flat head (I use the one issued in the cleaning kit) on the inside of the brake. The piston head is pretty much stained and battered. Think of it like little carbon pellets getting blasted against the head of the piston every time you shoot.

 

As far as proper cleaning to not get you panties in a bunch regarding rust inside of the barrel where you can't see, throw some soapy water (mixed with some ethanol helps to evaporate quicker) down the barrel when it is WARM not hot (it will spit back at you!) and the primer salts which are corrosive will dissolve into the water and wash out. Then clean the rifle with Hopp's and oil and she is fine.

I did not say the black stuff was corrosive, but that the ammo is. Just about anywhere the carbon goes though, the primer salts can wind up being found.

 

 

I know. More specifically, its the primer that is corrosive. So take note where most of the primer blasting happens and you have a higher probability of where rust can form.

Edited by WhoDat504
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I fired about 100 rounds of Corrosive and 100 of silverbear lastnight. Hard, heavy shooting. Run and Gun IDPA style drill night. After I was done, I sprayed some windex on and in it.

 

I let it sit a few hours... maybe 6. I was already getting a little rust on the gas block where the tube meets the block.

 

People...STOP SPRAYING THE GUN WITH WINDEX! The rust you got has nothing to do with the ammo. If you just left it alone, you wouldn't have had any rust whatsoever. The Windex is actually what's causing the rust. You're adding moisture to the gun and then letting it sit. Any gun would do this with any kind of ammo. The Windex is 100% useless. It's literally doing much more harm than good. Leave the gun alone until you're actually ready to clean it properly.

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I fired about 100 rounds of Corrosive and 100 of silverbear lastnight. Hard, heavy shooting. Run and Gun IDPA style drill night. After I was done, I sprayed some windex on and in it.

 

I let it sit a few hours... maybe 6. I was already getting a little rust on the gas block where the tube meets the block.

 

People...STOP SPRAYING THE GUN WITH WINDEX! The rust you got has nothing to do with the ammo. If you just left it alone, you wouldn't have had any rust whatsoever. The Windex is actually what's causing the rust. You're adding moisture to the gun and then letting it sit. Any gun would do this with any kind of ammo. The Windex is 100% useless. It's literally doing much more harm than good. Leave the gun alone until you're actually ready to clean it properly.

 

Funny, you are the only person that has ever said this.

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I have multiple guns that say your wrong (jeep45238 & W8lifter). You shoot some coorosive ammo through your gun and let it sit in a normal environment and you'll see rust. I've runwater through my barrel sprayed simple green and windex through barrels multiple times and never has a spot of rust because you clean first, then dry and oil. most people are smart enough to grasp the concept. Salt = bad, water = bad, but water removes the salt, pretty much anything else is not effective or cheap enough to flush a gun with , so water is what we use. Guns get wet, but as long as they are serviced regularly.

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Leaving it to sit for hours after spraying Windex is the problem. If he wants to use Windex - unnecessary, as water is as effective and also less potentially damaging to the gun - fine, but get it off/out of the gun right after spraying it down, and then oil up the gun.

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I have multiple guns that say your wrong (jeep45238 & W8lifter). You shoot some coorosive ammo through your gun and let it sit in a normal environment and you'll see rust. I've runwater through my barrel sprayed simple green and windex through barrels multiple times and never has a spot of rust because you clean first, then dry and oil. most people are smart enough to grasp the concept. Salt = bad, water = bad, but water removes the salt, pretty much anything else is not effective or cheap enough to flush a gun with , so water is what we use. Guns get wet, but as long as they are serviced regularly.

 

That has nothing to do with what I said. The difference is that you cleaned and oiled it promptly, and didn't let it sit. I'm referencing the fact that people are using Windex as some sort of corrosion inhibitor when in fact letting it sit in a gun for hours on end will cause excessive corrosion. They are still better off leaving the gun alone without adding moisture until you're ready to clean it properly. Of coarse Windex isn't going to harm your weapon if you clean it out and then oil it (regardless of the fact that Windex is still completely unnecessary and is no better than plain water). Nothing will do harm that fast, but letting it sit there will. Here's a good example on the exact same subject:

 

http://forum.saiga-1...post__p__672955

Edited by W8lifter
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I fired about 100 rounds of Corrosive and 100 of silverbear lastnight. Hard, heavy shooting. Run and Gun IDPA style drill night. After I was done, I sprayed some windex on and in it.

 

I let it sit a few hours... maybe 6. I was already getting a little rust on the gas block where the tube meets the block.

 

People...STOP SPRAYING THE GUN WITH WINDEX! The rust you got has nothing to do with the ammo. If you just left it alone, you wouldn't have had any rust whatsoever. The Windex is actually what's causing the rust. You're adding moisture to the gun and then letting it sit. Any gun would do this with any kind of ammo. The Windex is 100% useless. It's literally doing much more harm than good. Leave the gun alone until you're actually ready to clean it properly.

 

I can only say that water mixed with 20% ethanol is a better option than windex alone. The high alcohol content evaporates easier and doesn't allow the water to sit on any parts for long. Water is a necessity for cleaning corrosive ammo, but also as a double edge sword as well. You need to properly clean afterwards to get the full benefits.

Edited by WhoDat504
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Funny, you are the only person that has ever said this.

 

I was a chemistry minor in college. I had to spend some time with galvanic cells and basic corrosion study. Steel can corrode in the presence of water and oxygen.

Water becomes the media or solvent of the reaction. Oxygen is a very electronegative atom that wants to take electrons from where ever it can. Iron in steel is vulnerable to this

violent electron transfer reaction, but water is needed whether from the air as humidity (water vapor) or the condensed form of water vapor being water. The presence of salt ions in the water accelerate that process. Charged particles (ions) from metal-nonmetal compounds or from acid or base dissociation act to speed up the process. Salt compounds can also draw moisture from the air and concentrate water right where they are. When they do this, you have the initial ions, water, and oxygen to begin corrosion.

Ammonia in water forms ammonium and hydroxide {NH3 + H2O ↔ (NH4+) + (OH-)} which are also able to help in assisting oxygen present react with iron to form iron oxide better known as rust.

Chrome like other metals can also corrode into chrome oxide which is greenish in color.

To bring this into proper perspective, water and oxygen alone can work to corrode your rifle, water with oxygen and primer salt ions will work even faster, water with oxygen with corrosive primer salt ions and ammonium and possibly hydroxide will work even faster. Therefore, squirting windex which has water and ammonium into a barrel with primer salts and letting it sit is really a bad idea. Also, Ammonium ions do not neutralize the salt ions. That is horse shit.

Bad ideas have been present for a long time in mans history whether someone comes along to question them. The first emperor of China was prescribed mercury pills because one of his alchemists got the idea that this would make him live forever. The mercury killed him. The Romans built aquaducts to carry fresh water into Rome. Good idea except for the fact that they were lined with lead piping. So there you have it. Don't believe the witch doctor alchemists that swear by using windex as a prevention.

Edited by my762buzz
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The benefit of the windex is that it contains ammonia which helps remove fouling other than salts. Pure ammonia would harm the chrome, but as it is in common cleaners its a little better at removing crap than hot water. Mostly I just use hot water mixed with dishwashing liquid, then clean with a regular gun cleaner or CLP.

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The benefit of the windex is that it contains ammonia which helps remove fouling other than salts. Pure ammonia would harm the chrome, but as it is in common cleaners its a little better at removing crap than hot water. Mostly I just use hot water mixed with dishwashing liquid, then clean with a regular gun cleaner or CLP.

 

The thing is that usually people sell ammonia into this process as a "salt neutralizer" which it does not do. Neutralization reactions are acid and bases and not salts.

Keeping windex sitting in a barrel for hours is allowing it to work its corrosion on steel or chrome. Boiling hot water for a quick flush is a much better salt removal treatment.

Carbon residue is much easier cleaned with non-water bearing cleaners. In chemistry it is taught that like dissolves like, carbon and water and not alike. Carbon based solvents like nonpolar

oil based ones dissolve carbon properly. Windex does more harm in keeping it sitting in a bore than it would do good.

I kept some windex on a stainless steel knife for a few hours and got some nice corrosive etching. No thanks.

 

jf9j81.jpg

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The benefit of the windex is that it contains ammonia which helps remove fouling other than salts. Pure ammonia would harm the chrome, but as it is in common cleaners its a little better at removing crap than hot water. Mostly I just use hot water mixed with dishwashing liquid, then clean with a regular gun cleaner or CLP.

 

The thing is that usually people sell ammonia into this process as a "salt neutralizer" which it does not do. Neutralization reactions are acid and bases and not salts.

Keeping windex sitting in a barrel for hours is allowing it to work its corrosion on steel or chrome. Boiling hot water for a quick flush is a much better salt removal treatment.

Carbon residue is much easier cleaned with non-water bearing cleaners. In chemistry it is taught that like dissolves like, carbon and water and not alike. Carbon based solvents like nonpolar

oil based ones dissolve carbon properly. Windex does more harm in keeping it sitting in a bore than it would do good.

I kept some windex on a stainless steel knife for a few hours and got some nice corrosive etching. No thanks.

 

jf9j81.jpg

 

Like dissolves like is the best argument for a % solution of water and alcohol. Water part takes care of + charged salts for the primers, alcohol dissolves the organics like carbon (although not too effectively at all... need the kerosene of Hoppe's for sure), and all able to evaporate quicker especially down a warmed barrel.

 

Windex is a bust. Get rubbing alcohol and water.

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I have been been using ww2 bore cleaner for years, it is actually formulated to dissolve the corrosive salts and leave an oily protective residue on the parts until you shoot it next time, it is getting harder to find but a little goes a long way, it smells terrible and it is poison so keep it away from the little ones. I have seen it in several types of containers. big and small, this stuff is the best thing to use on corrosive ammo.

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Edited by KRINK_N_STEIN
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Funny, you are the only person that has ever said this.

 

I was a chemistry minor in college. I had to spend some time with galvanic cells and basic corrosion study. Steel can corrode in the presence of water and oxygen.

Water becomes the media or solvent of the reaction. Oxygen is a very electronegative atom that wants to take electrons from where ever it can. Iron in steel is vulnerable to this

violent electron transfer reaction, but water is needed whether from the air as humidity (water vapor) or the condensed form of water vapor being water. The presence of salt ions in the water accelerate that process. Charged particles (ions) from metal-nonmetal compounds or from acid or base dissociation act to speed up the process. Salt compounds can also draw moisture from the air and concentrate water right where they are. When they do this, you have the initial ions, water, and oxygen to begin corrosion.

Ammonia in water forms ammonium and hydroxide {NH3 + H2O ↔ (NH4+) + (OH-)} which are also able to help in assisting oxygen present react with iron to form iron oxide better known as rust.

Chrome like other metals can also corrode into chrome oxide which is greenish in color.

To bring this into proper perspective, water and oxygen alone can work to corrode your rifle, water with oxygen and primer salt ions will work even faster, water with oxygen with corrosive primer salt ions and ammonium and possibly hydroxide will work even faster. Therefore, squirting windex which has water and ammonium into a barrel with primer salts and letting it sit is really a bad idea. Also, Ammonium ions do not neutralize the salt ions. That is horse shit.

Bad ideas have been present for a long time in mans history whether someone comes along to question them. The first emperor of China was prescribed mercury pills because one of his alchemists got the idea that this would make him live forever. The mercury killed him. The Romans built aquaducts to carry fresh water into Rome. Good idea except for the fact that they were lined with lead piping. So there you have it. Don't believe the witch doctor alchemists that swear by using windex as a prevention.

This is a good response because it is true. The primer salt is mercuric and an ammonia compound will not neutralize a mercuric based compound. It is like using H2O to dissolve grease. Tell you what it will do, corrode your chrome bore and chamber. Chemistry, as noted above. Salts contain sodium (hygroscopic), NH3 + H20 yeilds ammonium hydroxide, mixed with a salt = sodium hydroxide. The other name for that is LYE. NAOH generally will not attack steel but the accelerated process above will corrode steel. Ammonia will after prolonged exposure attack the chrome. Use hot soapy water (Dawn dish soap), hairdryer or compressed air and lube. This is all that is needed. Period! It will take a long long time for corrosive ammmo to corrode a chrome lining, that is why they use it.....so why go to all this trouble? This is a bad idea that has been around for a long time.

Edited by U.S Praetorian
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While a chrome-lined bore may resist corrosive ammo for a while, deposits will also end up in your gas block and tube, brake, and front part of the receiver around the bore. Not all the areas are chrome lined and in a humid area they will flash rust pretty quickly.

 

The best advice has already been given; use very hot water (so it evaporates faster) with or without a little soap as a surfactant. Or add some Ballistol/water mix, which also acts as a surfactant and will leave a thin coating of oil after the water evaporates.

 

Blow it out or clean immediately. Don't leave moisture of any sort in the bore!

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The best advice has already been given; use very hot water

 

This and the fact that the hotter the water gets it dissolves salts at a faster rate.

 

This thread has really been fun. The concept of leaving windex sitting in a barrel for hours with corrosive primers in the attempt to neutralize the salts

 

may one day cease to exist as gun forums expose the truth about this.

Edited by my762buzz
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So, in short, Boiling water down the barrel and gas tube, dry it, then clean as normal?

 

I can speak from experience on this. You really need to pay close attention to the gas tube, gas block, and muzzle brake. I have found that these areas are the dirties parts after shooting, and harbor the most corrosive salts. You need to pull off you gas tube, and unscrew your muzzle brake. Then I would wash it with water (spray bottle, I use a water hose) and then reapply some oil, ballistol or whatever you like to use. If you live in a particularly humid area, like I do, you have to really stay on top of it.

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So, in short, Boiling water down the barrel and gas tube, dry it, then clean as normal?

 

Boiling water on anything that has the salts. Removing the muzzle brake and gas tube is a good idea as stated.

 

If it were me, I would do an initial flush through the barrel, gas tube, gas block, muzzle device, breach face area near the bolt, and then allow the removeable parts to soak briefly in a tub of hot water. Dry and then clean the carbon deposits as usual. Make sure the firing pin channel in the bolt is clean and dry. Water or oil in the channel is bad.

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So, in short, Boiling water down the barrel and gas tube, dry it, then clean as normal?

 

Boiling water on anything that has the salts. Removing the muzzle brake and gas tube is a good idea as stated.

 

If it were me, I would do an initial flush through the barrel, gas tube, gas block, muzzle device, breach face area near the bolt, and then allow the removeable parts to soak briefly in a tub of hot water. Dry and then clean the carbon deposits as usual. Make sure the firing pin channel in the bolt is clean and dry. Water or oil in the channel is bad.

Boiling water is the best just do not burn yourself. On detonation, those salts are blasted down the bore and everywhere else. As mentioned, the parts that are not chromed will suffer if not dealt with. I just use really hot soapy water, light scrub with a big brush then real hot flush out, blowdry and lube..done.

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