Saiga .410 for Home Defense

[abyssdncr 4]

So, my new Saiga .410 should arrive at my FFL on Tuesday and I've been doing a lot of reading in the last few days on various topics. One topic that really piqued my curiosity was buckshot loads for the little gun. So in reading several posts here and other places, the consensus is pretty much, ".410 for home/self defense? Why bother - get at least a 20 ga..." That said, it's a Mossy 500 full of buckshot by one end of the bed and my Saiga 12 with 10 rounds of #4 on the other, but I digress...

 

I wanted to take an objective look at the .410's potential, so I made a few tables in Excel that ranged from 000 buck down to #4 buck, the weight per pellet of each in grains, the number of balls that would fit in a given payload (1/2 oz. for 2.5" shells, and 5/8, 11/16, & 3/4 oz. for 3" shells, assumed a safe max velocity per Hodgdon's load data, and calculated the combined muzzle energy for the total load. The last column is just the total payload in grains.

 

This wasn't a how does .410 compare to 20 ga. or 12 ga. exercise, but rather how does .410 fare in it's own rite. I have to say that what I came up with was rather impressive, all things considered. As you can imagine, with the varying payload weights, the optimal buck size varied for each load. This did assume a fixed velocity, which would not hold true in reality, and it assumed a velocity which may not be actually realized in the Saiga's 19" barrel, but the exercise yielded the following optimized loads:

 

2.5" 1/2oz 1300 fps: 4 balls 00 @ 807.5 FPE

3" 3/4oz 1100 fps: 14 balls #3 @ 880.1 FPE

3" 11/16oz 1175 fps: 6 balls 0 @ 901.2 FPE or 10 balls #2 @ 901.2 FPE

3" 5/8oz 1250 fps: 5 balls 00 @ 933.4 FPE or 13 balls #4 @ 933.6 FPE

 

Considering that I usually chase things that go bump in the night with 15 rounds 124 gr. Gold dots with 364 FPE, the thought of 15 rounds of 933 FPE really doesn't sound so depressing... So, am I missing something major here, or are the Nay-sayers really just that hung up on saying "Nay"?

Edited August 7, 2011 by abyssdncr

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

I think it's more of a "if your going to use a shot gun for home defense then why not just go as big a you can?" Mentality. That being said plenty if people find the judge to be more than adequate personal defense. My wife head a saiga .410 and if for some reason I couldn't get to my s12 I'd have no reservations grabbing her 410. Plenty of deer have befallen the 410 slug. So yes your going to always have your nay sayers, doesn't mean they're right.

[Koljec 37]

Here's some 410 data, from 10' I think:

http://www.brassfetc...410%20bore.html

 

Note the bit about "Curiously, the temporary cavity on this round never seemed to collapse from its approximately 1.5 ± 0.031" diameter magnitude, for the entire length of the 16.0 ± 0.031" block. All rifle and pistol projectiles seem to create a temporary cavity at the initial inches of penetration and then collapse to the size of the permanent cavity. This load produced an approximate 16"x1.5" diameter temporary cavity."

 

A 1.5" cavity for 16" that doesn't close is nothing to sneeze at. That's the five 000 pellets boring through. Handguns can't do that, and many people usehandguns for HD. The 410 with 000 buck also surpasses the FBI's 12" penetration requirement.

 

Here's another test that uses the same Federal 000 3" handgun load I use in mine:

http://www.theboxotr...ocs/bot53_4.htm

 

Of course a 12 gauge will do more damage, but I'm comfortable with my 410, and its nominal recoil allows me to remain smooth and steady with follow-up shots.

 

Lastly, here are some quotes from Alucard0822 on the MDShooters forum. I think he has a pretty reasonable opinion:

 

"I posted a few other things in this thread explaining, but 410 can be a viable defensive tool, and 12ga isn't the only effective shotgun round there is, and there are several strengths and weaknesses between the two that have to be considered in the choice. It's more like a 9mm vs 45 comparison, or revolvers vs autoloaders argument than a "12ga works, 410 doesn't".

 

A 410 long gun, loaded appropriately has a lot of power compared to handguns, and more powerful than several calibers that would be deemed good for defense, and while not as powerful as 12 and 20 ga, it is no slouch, especially with 3" 000 5 pellet magnum buck or brenneke slugs. 12GA is normally loaded with 8 pellets of 000, so in essence you get 3 more pellets from a 12ga 000 load, and about double the recoil, not exactly a worthless pop gun vs the hammer of thor, they both are adequate for most situations. In a handgun length barrel, the 3" 410 buck load loses so much velocity, it generally loses the ability to penetrate well. There are other loads, and some new ones, one is 3 "defensive disks" over bbs (basically flattened pellets designed to stack better, and eliminate the problem with pellets getting crushed from the shot getting rammed into the forcing cone). The BBs are likely worthless, and the effectiveness of the disk shaped pellets remains to be seen.

The downside is that most shotguns are tube fed, and there is no gain in capacity with a skinny 3" shell vs a fat 2 3/4" shell, so even though an effective gauge, you are limited in capacity, and reload speed as with most other shotguns. with box mag 410 though, they get a huge boost in capacity, like the Saiga 410 with 10 and 15rd box mags, it could be superior to a tube fed 12 ga in some uses where capacity is an issue, and fast followup shots are needed. In a pump or break action though, a larger 12 or 20 gauge would probably be a better choice, due to the high price of 410 shells, and no real gains other than greatly reduced recoil...

 

If she can handle 20ga or reduced 12 ga, it would be a much better choice, not because 410 isn't effective, but because of ammo cost, parts availability, and ammo versatility. 12ga or 20 ga bird shot target loads costs about 1/2 of what 410 does, buck and slug loads are only a little more costly, but hard to find locally, where 20ga slugs and 12ga slug and buck are everywhere. there are also a lot more guns to choose from. The downside is that 20ga shells can't stack the large and effective 00 and 000 buck used in 12 and 410, so for defense you are best armed with slugs, and have the option of #3 buck shot if overpenetration is of critical importance, being it may not penetrate sufficiently. As far as reducing recoil, a 12ga 9X00 buck load generates about 24ft/lb of recoil from a 7lb gun, a 20ga 20 pellet #3 buck load generates about 18ft/lb from the same gun, a 410 5 pellet 000 buck has about 10ft/lbs from the same 7lb gun. These are all pretty much the most practical buck shot loads in each gauge, with the 12ga and 20ga being 2 3/4" shells, and 3" 410, you can see how recoil compares, the 20 ga has most of the power of a 12ga, but about 25% less recoil, the 410 has less than half of the recoil of the 12ga, and just a little more than 1/2 of the recoil from the 20ga. The problem is with weight, 410s and even 20ga guns tend to be smaller and lighter than 12ga guns, so instead of having 2 guns where one has a lot less recoil, yoe pretty much get a big gun, and a small light gun with about the same recoil, if the 20ga in the example weighs 5.5lbs instead of 7, then it's recoil matches that of the 12ga. "

Edited August 8, 2011 by Koljec

[WhiskeyMinion 300]

With a 15rd mag you can have 75 30cal projectiles down range in a matter of seconds. If you can't stop the threat with that you're in trouble regardless.

 

410 3" 000 = 5 pellets, 12g 2-3/4" =9 pellets. You're not giving up much for stopping power and follow up shots are better with the .410.

 

 

 

 

[abyssdncr 4]

[Koljec 37]

 

Thanks for posting this. Good reading and it's nice to see I'm not standing alone to think that the .410 certainly has it's place in the defensive role.

 

 

No problem. Maybe it's that a lot of guys are first introduced to 410s in their childhood, and they don't really perceive it as an adult gun. Also, some guys seem to avoid 410s because of bad experiences target shooting. The best you'll hear from them is, "The 410 is an expert's gun." Anyway, gun opinions are hard to change.

[ThirtyAughtSix 101]

I think the negativity of using a 410 for HD comes from people spouting off that they use #4 or whatever BIRDSHOT because it has more pellets, more spread and such and then there is the whole camp that they are just trying to stop the intruder, not shoot to kill as you should because if somebody is trying to kill you, they ain't gonna stop till they are killed themselves most likely.

 

Yes birdshot can kill, but its meant for knocking a bird out of the sky. Think of it this way, if a 00 Buck load has 5 pellets and has the same "energy" as #4 birdshot, you have to divide the energy by the amount of pellets. So you can either have 5 high energy wound tracts, or a shitload of tiny ones that have really low energy. That is why you NEVER EVER use birdshot for HD.

 

Slugs are fine too for HD, a 410 slug has plenty of power.

[garandman 11]

Yes birdshot can kill, but its meant for knocking a bird out of the sky.

 

 

I get SOOOO tired of hearing this, spoken like its sage wisdom / the magic answer to the question. In fact, its a completely irrelevant concept. Yes 410 birdhot is meant for knocking birds outta the sky - at 30+ yards. Meaning 1-2 pellets will hit the bird and kill it instantly. That scenario has NOTHING to do with a HD scenario.

 

Think of it this way, if a 00 Buck load has 5 pellets and has the same "energy" as #4 birdshot, you have to divide the energy by the amount of pellets.

 

 

Think of it THIS way....

 

410 birdshot at TYPICAL HOME DEFENSE RANGES (7 yards and closer) is gonna dump ALL those pellets into the torso / face of the attacker. NOT one or two pellets. If the total weight of the birdshot = the total weight of the buckshot, then the birdshot HAS EXACTLY THE SAME KINETIC ENERGY OF THE BUCKSHOT. NO difference. Patterning will be almost identical at 7 yards and less. 410 buckshot is NOT IN ANY WAY better than 410 birdshot (assuming same velocity and same total shot weight.) Well, EXCEPT the birdshot has a greater probability of creating scrambled eggs of whatever it hits.

 

So if yer comfortable with 410 buckshot for HD (personally I am) then scientifically you should be just as comfortable with 410 birdshot. Of course, if you just react emotionally, then you prolly disagree with this.

 

Geez people....THINK.

 

Here's an interesting piece on the concept of "stopping power" generally. http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866 Summary of it - all handguns are roughly equivalent for HD. If you really wanna get the job done, use a rifle or a shotgun. Any rifle / shotgun is better than any handgun.

 

Edited August 26, 2011 by garandman

[armory 142]

My Wife uses her Circuit Judge for things that go "Bump in the Night".

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZdkmqGatO4

[patriot 7,197]

410 is a decent HD round, in anything. While the Saiga 410 is cool, I already own a Tromix 12. The Judge is a damned intimidating looking handgun as well. I plan on adding a 410 Tracker revolver to my collection. It looks like a S&W Model 29 on steroids. Besides, it's a gun I don't have yet.

 

 

$440.00 street price.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2011 by patriot

[stiletto raggio 20]

I've said before that the Saiga made me reevaluate the utility of a .410 for defense. Yes, it gives the greatest advantages to smaller, weaker people who can't handle the weight and recoil of a 12 gauge, but even for big, young guys like me, 15 rounds of 000 with very low recoil looks like a good package to me. Ammo cost is the biggest thing against it, with good 12 gauge buckshot available at $125 a flat and .410 birdshot at over $90 a flat. But in terms of performance, I don't think .410 buck is really outclassed by bigger gagues when you balance the pros and cons.

 

.410 slug are worthless in my book. A .357 lever gun gives better accuracy and ballistics and costs much less to shoot. If you think you need a single-projectile for your shotgun, 1/5 or 1/4 ounces at 1800 FPS (think .380 magnum) is not what you need. Slug performance is where the 12 and 20 gauge really outclass the .410.