Excessive fouling in gas block

[G O B 3,516]

[kindapointless 22]

i agree with the break hone. I posted the other day about mine making lead shit biscuits instead of ur plastic. I had small burrs in the barrel I'm kinda redneck so I took my finest brake hone and gave it a couple twists and burrs are gone. I wish I could actually get in there and give them a small chamfer. This brings up another interesting idea though. What about a mirror polish of the gas chamber so shit wouldnt stick as much. maybe even a polish and hard chrome?

[yooper14.5 84]

i agree with the break hone. I posted the other day about mine making lead shit biscuits instead of ur plastic. I had small burrs in the barrel I'm kinda redneck so I took my finest brake hone and gave it a couple twists and burrs are gone. I wish I could actually get in there and give them a small chamfer. This brings up another interesting idea though. What about a mirror polish of the gas chamber so shit wouldnt stick as much. maybe even a polish and hard chrome?

 

I've thought about polishing it before, but I figured if it was worth doing somthing like that would have been done already. Seems like a good idea to me.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

....

Edited August 27, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[YOT 3,743]

I wish I could actually get in there and give them a small chamfer.

 

You can. You've got to do it from outside the barrel with a small round dental burr. Trust yourself enough?

[kindapointless 22]

I really don't know if I do or not hey what's the worst that can happen ? If I Dick it up thats a pretty good justification for sbs time

[poptart 3]

mine does the same thing, guess i didn't put enough angle on the ports i added. it was a 24" gun i cut to 18" so i added 2 ports, after about 200 rounds i have to use a dowel to ram the puck out.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

....

Edited August 27, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[Gunfixr 76]

Pauly's right, you can definately overgas any gas operated gun.

If the OPs gun will run birdshot on the #1 setting, it is overgassed. The crap getting into the gas block is one of two things, or a combination of those two things.

The ports are way too large, which is indicated by it running birdshot on setting #1, but doesn't always cause this clogging.

The ports are drilled at the wrong angle, and/or have burrs on the exit hole into the bore. Either one of these conditions causes plastic to be shaved off as the wad goes by, and the pressure pushes it into the gas chamber. Some will come off anyway, but burrs or incorrect angles of the holes will increase it dramatically.

 

If they are truly 5/64th in diameter, that is about .077" which would be correct, and it should not be over gassed. Be sure of this measurement. If whomever drilled these holes did it incorrectly, there was very likely a burr on the top as well, which was pushed over the hole as the gas block was pressed on, this will not allow a true hole-sized pin to enter the hole, and make it seem smaller than it is. Also, "fused" in plastic could be making the hole seem smaller.

[Paulyski 2,227]

 

Wow. My sides hurt. This is funny stuff.

 

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Entrapment

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

....

Edited August 27, 2011 by evlblkwpnz

[SaigaKen 338]

I'll play

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/derailment

[Mullet Man 2,114]

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

[Gunfixr 76]

[Gunfixr 76]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

Well, for the record, I have not seen the "flawless" video, nor do I really care to. A 100rd drum dump is not impressive to me, as I have no doubt the guns I built will do it easily. Hell, the select fire gun I did last year did much more than that, with bulk pack ammo, no cleaning. I am sure that if the fellow I built it for was having reliability problems, I would've heard from him by now. Several customers shoot much more than I, and do not clean until it stops, and they're not sure when the last time they cleaned was.

Depending on the barrel length past the gas block, and its overall length, 4 ports at .093" may just be too much.

Actually, I do believe the Russians have a drum, so I'm sure it was made to run them. They built the gun to run the ammo they make, which probably does not include light loads. We modify the guns to run our ammo, which does include light loads.

Will overgassing the gun beat it up? I am certain that it will, given time.

Will overgassing the gun break it? I do not know, only time will tell. I am sure it will cause excessive wear on many of the parts, which, considering the parts availability here in the US, doesn't seem like the thing to do. Fortunately, enough people do overgas the guns that we will know soon enough without me having to do one just to see.

Does overgassing make it run better? Depends on your definition of "better". They sure run rougher. They sure kick a lot more. For folks who want to shoot a lot, that's not what they want to hear.

One of the biggest selling points of the high end tube feds is not only their reliability, but how smooth and fast they shoot. An overgassed S12 will run good, but it beats itself and you up, slowing down your hit speed.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

As I recall, and just checked to be sure I haven't slipped, the #1 setting is the lowest of the settings, meaning the least amount of gas flow. By backing it out 1 turn, you have actually changed the #1 setting to a higher setting, so your results are not entirely accurate. Nonetheless, it still shouldn't run low brass with reliability on #1, even a full turn out.

It is not just a matter of velocity, but also a matter of payload weight. This is why guns get overgassed so much, because so many people do not understand the system. It is not velocity alone, nor is it payload weight, it is the combination of both. These both, coupled together, along with the powders' burning speed, determine the chamber pressure, which is directly related to the back pressure on the whole barrel and gas system as the shot charge or slug travels down the barrel. This is what determines how much pressure is available to operate the system. How much or how little of that pressure is tapped off, along with the overall efficiency of the system, will determine how well it runs.

It's just simple fact.

 

Thanks for the reply.

My reason for asking was because of my gas plug setting. I have always read on this forum, that a factory gas plug shouldnt or wont bottom out and lock on setting 1 and setting 2 should be the first setting you are able to lock into after bottoming out. This is why i have always backed it out past setting 2, to setting 1. I'll have to give her a go with it bottomed and locked into setting 1.

 

I find it odd that mine could possibly be overgassed on setting 1 (360 out) with two ports @ 5/64" and one port @ 3/32" on a factory length 109 barrel. I wonder if the "brake" i use (Dinzag '74 style) on it is having some effect?! I have no contact marks with the rear trunnion and i do use alot of 2-3/4" 1oz Sluggers with the setting on 1 @ 360 out.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

Well, for the record, I have not seen the "flawless" video, nor do I really care to. A 100rd drum dump is not impressive to me, as I have no doubt the guns I built will do it easily. Hell, the select fire gun I did last year did much more than that, with bulk pack ammo, no cleaning. I am sure that if the fellow I built it for was having reliability problems, I would've heard from him by now. Several customers shoot much more than I, and do not clean until it stops, and they're not sure when the last time they cleaned was.

Depending on the barrel length past the gas block, and its overall length, 4 ports at .093" may just be too much.

Actually, I do believe the Russians have a drum, so I'm sure it was made to run them. They built the gun to run the ammo they make, which probably does not include light loads. We modify the guns to run our ammo, which does include light loads.

Will overgassing the gun beat it up? I am certain that it will, given time.

Will overgassing the gun break it? I do not know, only time will tell. I am sure it will cause excessive wear on many of the parts, which, considering the parts availability here in the US, doesn't seem like the thing to do. Fortunately, enough people do overgas the guns that we will know soon enough without me having to do one just to see.

Does overgassing make it run better? Depends on your definition of "better". They sure run rougher. They sure kick a lot more. For folks who want to shoot a lot, that's not what they want to hear.

One of the biggest selling points of the high end tube feds is not only their reliability, but how smooth and fast they shoot. An overgassed S12 will run good, but it beats itself and you up, slowing down your hit speed.

When I studied my first S12 and made it run, there are a lot of things that are out in the open that were "hush hush" then. I was offered some advice on porting from a well respected business member here. I took that advice. I have raised hell with this particular 18" gun and it runs.... what can I say. It is the only one that I have that has athe 4 @ .093" port configuration. However, porting was not the only thing done to it. This isn't the only one that I have made run and will certainly not be the last. At the time of my shooting the 100 round MD-20 low brass dump video, it was a video benchmark that NOONE had hit.... not even the well respected pros here or anywhere else. There is still noone on youtube that has done it "flawlessly". It doesn't kick bad and is certainly one smooth machine. If you ever come down to Jacksonville, FL you are welcome to meet me at Amelia Shotgun Sports and we will raise hell with it all day on my dime with the ammo or ammos of your choosing. You can come back and give an eval of it. Bring one of those plugs for me to try out too

 

Where's that LRBHO? I need a few....

 

[SaigaKen 338]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

Well, for the record, I have not seen the "flawless" video, nor do I really care to. A 100rd drum dump is not impressive to me, as I have no doubt the guns I built will do it easily. Hell, the select fire gun I did last year did much more than that, with bulk pack ammo, no cleaning. I am sure that if the fellow I built it for was having reliability problems, I would've heard from him by now. Several customers shoot much more than I, and do not clean until it stops, and they're not sure when the last time they cleaned was.

Depending on the barrel length past the gas block, and its overall length, 4 ports at .093" may just be too much.

Actually, I do believe the Russians have a drum, so I'm sure it was made to run them. They built the gun to run the ammo they make, which probably does not include light loads. We modify the guns to run our ammo, which does include light loads.

Will overgassing the gun beat it up? I am certain that it will, given time.

Will overgassing the gun break it? I do not know, only time will tell. I am sure it will cause excessive wear on many of the parts, which, considering the parts availability here in the US, doesn't seem like the thing to do. Fortunately, enough people do overgas the guns that we will know soon enough without me having to do one just to see.

Does overgassing make it run better? Depends on your definition of "better". They sure run rougher. They sure kick a lot more. For folks who want to shoot a lot, that's not what they want to hear.

One of the biggest selling points of the high end tube feds is not only their reliability, but how smooth and fast they shoot. An overgassed S12 will run good, but it beats itself and you up, slowing down your hit speed.

When I studied my first S12 and made it run, there are a lot of things that are out in the open that were "hush hush" then. I was offered some advice on porting from a well respected business member here. I took that advice. I have raised hell with this particular 18" gun and it runs.... what can I say. It is the only one that I have that has athe 4 @ .093" port configuration. However, porting was not the only thing done to it. This isn't the only one that I have made run and will certainly not be the last. At the time of my shooting the 100 round MD-20 low brass dump video, it was a video benchmark that NOONE had hit.... not even the well respected pros here or anywhere else. There is still noone on youtube that has done it "flawlessly". It doesn't kick bad and is certainly one smooth machine. If you ever come down to Jacksonville, FL you are welcome to meet me at Amelia Shotgun Sports and we will raise hell with it all day on my dime with the ammo or ammos of your choosing. You can come back and give an eval of it. Bring one of those plugs for me to try out too

 

Where's that LRBHO? I need a few....

 

 

 

I only have one

Need to hit that damn powerball

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Saigapower,

Isn't yours a Tromix though? You probably have more $ in yours than I have in all 4 of these, if so. I'm frugal as hell in some aspects of my life and it allows me to indulge in this wonderful weapon system. You can't hit the powerbal.... because I need to hit it first. Papa needs a new work truck

[SaigaKen 338]

Saigapower,

Isn't yours a Tromix though? You probably have more $ in yours than I have in all 4 of these, if so. I'm frugal as hell in some aspects of my life and it allows me to indulge in this wonderful weapon system. You can't hit the powerbal.... because I need to hit it first. Papa needs a new work truck

 

Yes but I have this problem....I dont like to talk about it much....I see guns and I want them

[jmacken37 4]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

Well, for the record, I have not seen the "flawless" video, nor do I really care to. A 100rd drum dump is not impressive to me, as I have no doubt the guns I built will do it easily. Hell, the select fire gun I did last year did much more than that, with bulk pack ammo, no cleaning. I am sure that if the fellow I built it for was having reliability problems, I would've heard from him by now.

 

NOPE. No problems at all. Just ran it through a full day shotgun course and it was flawless. No cleaning for several range outings prior to the class, too. Did lube it though...

 

Jake

Edited August 20, 2011 by jmacken37

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

For the record, the Saiga 12 in the "Flawless" 100 round dump video has 4 ports @ .093". It has had a very in-depth friction reduction that is far beyond what I have seen commercially available. It is an incredibly smooth machine. Still, it will only run light loads 100% on the wide open setting. The weapon is not overgassed. If I were running Winchester Universal 100 rounds out of 100 with no failures on setting one, I might be concerned that the weapon is getting more gas than necessary when firing high base loads. The "Flawless" S12 has seen slugs and buck with no ill effects. Now, of course, the regulator is always on setting one for all loads unless it just won't run on that setting, so I have no fear of damaging my AK100 rear block, firing pin, or bolt. I do not take video of it running heavy loads because it is no big inspiring deal to fire expensive buckshot or slugs as seen in other's videos. I would love to see some other guys here show 100% reliability with some 100 round low base drum dump videos, but these weapons weren't designed to function with light loads or drums, so why bother making them run well with either, right? Why bother doing anything to attempt to increase the reliability of the weapon if all you are going to do is fire slugs and buck with stick mags, right? Yeah, why bother? Geez....

Well, for the record, I have not seen the "flawless" video, nor do I really care to. A 100rd drum dump is not impressive to me, as I have no doubt the guns I built will do it easily. Hell, the select fire gun I did last year did much more than that, with bulk pack ammo, no cleaning. I am sure that if the fellow I built it for was having reliability problems, I would've heard from him by now.

 

NOPE. No problems at all. Just ran it through a full day shotgun course and it was flawless. No cleaning for several range outings prior to the class, too. Did lube it though...

 

Jake

 

Awesome. What are the specs of the mods that were done to the weapon? Maybe some pics too. Sounds like a winner.

[macaholic 5]

Pauly's right, you can definately overgas any gas operated gun.

If the OPs gun will run birdshot on the #1 setting, it is overgassed. The crap getting into the gas block is one of two things, or a combination of those two things.

The ports are way too large, which is indicated by it running birdshot on setting #1, but doesn't always cause this clogging.

The ports are drilled at the wrong angle, and/or have burrs on the exit hole into the bore. Either one of these conditions causes plastic to be shaved off as the wad goes by, and the pressure pushes it into the gas chamber. Some will come off anyway, but burrs or incorrect angles of the holes will increase it dramatically.

 

If they are truly 5/64th in diameter, that is about .077" which would be correct, and it should not be over gassed. Be sure of this measurement. If whomever drilled these holes did it incorrectly, there was very likely a burr on the top as well, which was pushed over the hole as the gas block was pressed on, this will not allow a true hole-sized pin to enter the hole, and make it seem smaller than it is. Also, "fused" in plastic could be making the hole seem smaller.

 

 

I did another inspection of the gas ports and they are larger than 5 6/4. I believe they are probably .093 and I have four of them with a 16' barrel. The fellow that did my gun simply installed another barrel rather than cutting the barrel and opening up the gas ports in the barrel that came with the gun. Why he chose to do it this way is a mystery, but that's what was done. The gas ports are in the shape of a square, rather than a triangle, which leads me to believ he used a cut down 24' two port barrel and added two more ports. Also, the gas ports are slightly obstructed by the gas block itself, but they do seem to be angled properly, and are clear of any metal shavings, plastic fouling, etc.

Edited August 27, 2011 by macaholic

[csmw 98]

The ports are supposed to be angled back toward the puck, as in... if you stuck a tooth pick down the hole the top part sticking out would be slanting toward the rear of the gun.

 

No it would not have run with the three original ports if you chopped the barrel to 16", it would definitely need more gas than that with a short barrel. Also, you have to have a license to cut a shotgun barrel to any less than 18" unless the barrel is removed from the receiver first.

The OP had a Form 1, so he is allowed to "manufacture" that individual SBS.

 

+1 on it needing 4 ports

 

It sounds like there may be some burrs in the barrel or a sharp edge on the inside of the barrel at the ports that is "shaving" material off of the shot cup in the ammo as it travels past, causing the premature "shitloading" of the gas block. I have experienced the "shit biscuit", but usually after about 400-500 rounds of Federal Multi-purpose. The weapon still runs great with the shit biscuit in it and I usually have no indication of its existence until I go home and clean the weapon. It doesn't seem to be as bad with Winchester Universal.

 

Your right on about the gun running alright. It runs like a scolded pup. I just wonder if it would run after it cooled down and that plastick shit biscuit got hard? Anyway, I think I made the wrong decission by letting someone else work on one of my firearms. I do hope that I'm wrong, but I think the problem lles in the way the gas ports were done and I do believe they were drilled a little too large, because the gun runs low brass on the #1 setting. I plan to SBS my other Saiga-12 to 16" but I'll do that one myself.

 

If you haven't tried to shoot the gun after you let it cool, you are in the dark as far as how many rounds you can fire. You don't know if the gun continues to work for an acceptable amount of rounds.

You need to do some more testing.

 

If the holes are too big, weld them up and start over.

 

Good luck.