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Lake City XM193....oh crap


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This ammo and my new generation 3 Saiga equals danger for the shooter.

 

The cartridge shows very high pressures. All case heads expanded .0 03" compared to all other ammo. The primers were flattened and a raised edge around the firing pin strike. The case markings and head was highly distorted. Yes before anyone posts I did take into account the raised portion on the bolt denting the case head. I had flames from the muzzle and a few shots showed flames out of the reciver cover.

Definely a no go in my rifle.

 

I would say use with caution.

 

Working on the restoration now. Just waiting on the remaining parts.

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That stuff comes out perfect in my ar, makes me wonder if you got a bad batch but I haven't heard of any problems with it before but then again my ar was built for the 5.56 NATO stuff. Makes me wonder if something is wrong with your saiga.

 

 

MY AR EATS THIS STUFF UP NO PROBLEMS AT ALL HERE

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No problems with the rifle. I doubt the ammo was bad. XM193 is very hot ammo. If I remember correctly it is loaded to near or above 55000psi. It is hard on the gun.

Standard loads near 50000psi but rarely go above.

Saigas are chambered for 5.56x45 but the action spring would have to be stronger.

 

All the 5.56 chamber is a longer leade. A longer distance to the to the riflings.

 

An AR was and is designed for the 5.56x45 loads if it is a milspec derivative.

 

And no I did mean the reciver cover. It cam out of the overlapping area on the closed end as well as the ejection port. Definitely hot ammo. I did compare it to Brown Bear, Federal 55gr FMJ and Hornady 40gr. ballistic tips. The Federal and Brown Bear performed as expected the 40gr. Hornady load felt a little light but the 1x4 plank thought otherwise.

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I had a customer bring in his Mini-14 complaining that "something just wasn't right". He brought his ammo with him and it was case of XM193. When range tested there seemed to be a lot more "pop" and action noise than all the times I had previously done work on his particular Ruger. I have since checked the rifle out with nothing being found in the negative and have instructed him to discontinue use of this ammo because while I am almost sure that the rifle could handle it, I had also read on a thread somewhere that somebody had a very hot batch of XM193. I could not and have not since found the thread but I know I read it. I'd be curious to know if the lot numbers for what he has and what you are shooting were the same or close. I will see if he still has any of his packaging and if so I'll post the lot number. Indeed its a very hot loading of the 5.56 but I did feel that this was different than any previous experience I've had with this loading. I did not stick it on the chrony nor did I pull any bullets an examine the loading but thats just my recent experience with it.

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I had a customer bring in his Mini-14 complaining that "something just wasn't right". He brought his ammo with him and it was case of XM193. When range tested there seemed to be a lot more "pop" and action noise than all the times I had previously done work on his particular Ruger. I have since checked the rifle out with nothing being found in the negative and have instructed him to discontinue use of this ammo because while I am almost sure that the rifle could handle it, I had also read on a thread somewhere that somebody had a very hot batch of XM193. I could not and have not since found the thread but I know I read it. I'd be curious to know if the lot numbers for what he has and what you are shooting were the same or close. I will see if he still has any of his packaging and if so I'll post the lot number. Indeed its a very hot loading of the 5.56 but I did feel that this was different than any previous experience I've had with this loading. I did not stick it on the chrony nor did I pull any bullets an examine the loading but thats just my recent experience with it.

The case head distortion and all of the high pressure signs tell me the ammo is not safe in my rifle. Also the Mini 14 is much different from a Saiga 223 even though the caliber is the same. If I remember correctly your customer should have changed out the gas port bushing. I don't remember if it should be smaller or larger but that will reduce gas pressure on the operating arm and reduce the amount of travel on the operating rod and bolt. Basically less noise from the action and a happy customer.

 

 

Not trying to do your job but I own a Mini 30 and the same goes for it.

 

Back to my Saiga...The gun checks out perfectly nothing to cause high pressure signs on the case head or the flames where they shouldn't be. Gun works great with everything else I have thrown through it. I will try again later maybe the gun just needs a break-in period.

 

 

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Had it been that this was the first time he had used XM193 in his rifle I would have went that route. However, he had previously went through a case plus change with nothing notable as far as concerns. While the chances are pretty slim I can be almost certain that if we were to spec out one of the rounds he had compared to another lot of XM193 there would have been a significant difference. With the Q.C. checks in place and all Ifind it odd that this was the case but I can say with certainty that around 20% of the ammo out of his case was "out of spec." It just was not the same as what would be expected. I did call the customer and he has quite a bit of the ammo left over alond with another 2000 rounds bought seperatly. I think I may have a few floating around the shop too. I'm going to compare them as soon as he can drop them off. I dunno what it will be but I'd bet a shinny nickel that there will be something that varies.

 

Back on point though, I don't blame you on not wanting to use it in your Saiga. I don't think it will be any better down the line than it is now unless you find something minute that you may have missed before when checking it out. It's happened to all of us at one point or another I'm sure. I would say though that its more than likely just not a flavor your Saiga likes to eat. If there is nothing out of tolerance or anything like that then you could tune the rifle to work better with XM193 but I doubt the return benifiet would be worth it. I've only recently been playing around heavily with Saiga mods but I may do a little range testing myself and see what we come up with. It'd be interesting if mine had the same issue. Take care.

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I think there may be a slight chance bullet seating depth and the longer case neck may have something to do with my problem. I measured Hornady Brown Bear and the standard 55gr load from Federal and they all stayed within a few thousands of eachother. When I measured the Lake City XM193 I got a nice surprise it was on average 15 to 20 thousands longer. I do believe this is the cause of my problem. The longer case neck holds the bullet deeper into the throat of the barrel and that will increase the pressure. I did a check and I did not see any rifling marks on the bullet seems its pretty close but not touching. I will give the remaining box another try with the sights corrected and see how accuracy fairs. If I had to guess the SS109 loading may work better with the short barrel and fast twist rate of the Saiga. I will give those a try on my next outing with my now restored Saiga.

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I'd say your definetly right on that. When you start talking varience in that department the initial and sustained pressures will vary almost wildly. Nifty trick when building your own pet loads but a curious surprise when your not expecting it from a factory loading!

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Help me out here, but isn't a Saiga marked for .223?

 

5.56 is NOT safe to fire in .223 guns, according to all manufacturers.

 

 

 

 

 

Many people claim the Saiga is chambered in 5.56 but marked .223 for importing. I can't seem to get anyone to back this up with facts. Hear-say is the best that can be offered. If I had to guess, it's a 5.56, but that's a guess only. Wish I could find out. I have a case of SS109 that I'm having second thoughts about using.

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"7.62x39" and myself have both done chamber castings on ".223" Saigas. I am positive mine was a 5.56 NATO cut chamber. However I can certainly understand your trepadation. I can't say there is no chance your rifles are chambered as .223 but I have yet to hear of a Saiga chamber being speced at anything but 5.56. I like you would not want to take an undue risk and fire ammo that was not really safe for my rifle but in this case it sounds like you would be good to go. However, I'll go back to what I had said previously. If you are still not comfortable or have doubts then take the rifle to a another 'smith who has the capacity and knowlege to spec. the chamber. Explain what your concern is and what you want to know and he should be able to help you from there. In addition if you explain what your concern is then he may already have first hand experience with this issue and be able to tell you immeadiatly without your having to get it checked at all. Gunsmiths usually have a pretty extensive network. Either folks we went to school with or swap parts around with and so there is a chance that if he hasn't had first hand experience then he may know another 'smith who has. Worst case you give him a little money, he spec.'s the chamber and you know for sure what you can use. I'd hate for anybody to get rid of a good rifle because of an issue that it may or may not have and this way you wouldn't have any doubts whatsoever. Hope this helps you somewhat and I'm going to keep looking for that PDF of the Saiga manual that states that it is a 5.56 chamber. I know I'm not insane and I saw it. I'll let you know when I do.

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This ammo and my new generation 3 Saiga equals danger for the shooter.

 

The cartridge shows very high pressures. All case heads expanded .0 03" compared to all other ammo. The primers were flattened and a raised edge around the firing pin strike. The case markings and head was highly distorted. Yes before anyone posts I did take into account the raised portion on the bolt denting the case head. I had flames from the muzzle and a few shots showed flames out of the reciver cover.

Definely a no go in my rifle.

 

I would say use with caution.

 

Working on the restoration now. Just waiting on the remaining parts.

 

This has me all confused. I've used Federal XM193 in the Saiga plenty of times with no apparent problem. I bought a bulk box described in the catalog as .223. It arrived in a box labeled 5.56 M193 Ball. Not sure of the significance but Federal calls it "commercial ammunition".

 

http://www.federalpremium.com/resources/xm193.aspx

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At this point, because of all of the civilian rifle chambered for it the 5.56 NATO round is a commercially loaded round. It just also happens to be the same round the gov't issues in various formats. Your XM193 is a commercial loading in addition to being a military loading. The problem is that the round was developed as a military cartridge and thus any changes the government made to the round (i.e. dimention changes, powder types etc) were done so with only the governments use in mind. So, the confusion comes from the fact that when the rifles were being developed (AR-15 and later the M-16), so were the rounds. The foundation was the .223 REM for these rifles. However, the military enacted different changes to the round through both the rifle's and the rounds genisis and the end result was a .223 REM that had been altered slightly and redesignated as the 5.56x45 round. Later, after adoption by NATO it become commonly referred to as the 5.56NATO. As mentioned the foundation was the .223 but the end result is slightly different. The case dimentions do differ somewhat though we are literally talking thousandths of inch here. However, any gunsmith or bench shooter will tell you that a thousandth of an inch can be a very big deal. The powders used are often different than that used in the .223 REM round thus producing higher pressures. In addition, though it matters little to us the military has numerous "flavors" of 5.56. The most common we hear about are the standards like XM193 and M-855 but bear in mind they have a couple of armor peircing rounds and several tracer round designed for different distances and purposes.

 

The end result is the the 5.56 and the .223 ARE in fact a little different. .223 rounds may be fired in rifles chambered for 5.56x45 NATO but 5.56x45 NATO rounds should not be used in .223 REM guns. The question on here is can the Saiga fire 5.56 NATO safely and was it designed to? In the case of at least my rifle...sorta. The rifle is marked as .223 but I think that may just be poor thinking on the part of the mfg. or it may also be a liability thing by trying to get the users to use lower pressure .223 REM loadings. On the same token, I know for a fact that my rifle in addition to all others that I have heard of being truely speced have 5.56x45 NATO chambers. So, what are we to think? You also hear about instances like the author of this thread had where a 5.56x45 loading most likely produced pressure too high for what he felt was safe in his rifle.

 

I think that one could assume that their rifle can handle 5.56x45 NATO but you know what they say about assumptions. I go back to my previous statment(s): My rifle handles the NATO loading fine but your may not. Call the distributor and ask them. If no clear answer is given then take the rifle to a reputable gunsmith and have it speced. If you do not wish to use the NATO loadings because your not sure if your rifle will handle it, then use .223 REM. I hope this helps to some degree. I'd be curious to know what the dist. of the Saiga say or how many other gunsmiths have checked a chamber on a Saiga 5.56.

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I have my manual and it describes the caliber of my particular model (415 mm barrel) as both .223 AND 5.56 X 45, however it is stamped .223 Remington on the rifle itself. I like this carbine but I have to comment that it has quite a few peculiarities that have me considering an AR. This ammo issue being one, the modifications necessary for mags being another. If memory serves, I think I saw a metal box containing a dozen new metal 30 rd mags for an AR for the price of 6 plastic Surefires. If you're the type that likes tinkering as a hobby the Saiga is fine. If you want to just shoot without concern for explosions (not to mention the whole 922r thing) the AR might be the way to go. (Flame suit on)

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For what its worth I'm installing an MSA adapter this weekend in my rifle before I put a couple in two customer guns. Once installed...AR mags or Saiga mags. I have fabricated a quickly removable bullet guide so I can also use circle 10's etc. Point being that I think I've covered most of my bases with what mags I can use in my Saiga. I really don't have that much in this either other than the price of mags, the adapter and the materials and my time for all of the fabrication I've done but I like being able to use just about anything I can get my hands on! I have not tried Galil mags yet but I dunno that I really have any desire to either.

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I just called Russian American Armory Corporation (Toll Free (877) 752-2894) and posed the question about Federal XM193 ammo use in a Saiga identified as both .223 Remington and 5.56 X 45. He told me there was no difference in chambering regardless of how they are identified and that he has personally fired 1000s of NATO rounds through .223 Remington stamped models without a problem. Next time I go to the range I will compare them with a box of Remington UMCs to see if I notice a difference. If I explode and survive I'll report back...lol. Joking...I've already fired at least 500 XM193 rounds and have yet to explode.

 

RAAC Website

 

Izmash Website

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Guys don't own a Saiga 223, but, was the ammo marked not for duty use? And made by Federal?

 

From some of their M855 stuff marked as above, that I have seen, it appears they are selling total crap in the "Not for duty use line" there were dented cartridges, that wouldn't chamber, and I wouldn't doubt its lots of ammo that were rejected by the US military.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if that itself was the problem.

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Well I went back out to the range and took the XM193 out for another spin. All was going very well until the dreaded flames from the receiver cover. Well lucky for me my friend caught the case. I shot several half loaded magazines of XM193 with no other issues. I took some brass home that we captured and I started taking measurements.

 

Seems the longer case neck was not my only issue. The case head was .003 to .005" too big. It may not seem like much to most but .003-.005" can go from safe to gun fired out of battery and thats what it was doing. Although the blot was fully forward the bolt was not fully locked. That could have turned a good day at the range to a trip to the emergency room in a pull of the trigger. So I figured let me see how many more in my box match the out of spec dimensions and to my surprise none. Now I did buy another box and measured the cases all is well in the next box but I may phase out this ammo unless I am just trying to scare someone at the range.

 

16" barrels with hot loaded ammo gives you one heck of a fire ball and a concussion loud enough to wake any dummy at the range. Its nice when the range masters gather around watching a Saiga 223 shoot and in awe of the massive concussion and fie ball.

 

 

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The case head was .003 to .005" too big. It may not seem like much to most but .003-.005" can go from safe to gun fired out of battery and thats what it was doing. Although the blot was fully forward the bolt was not fully locked.

 

 

Run forrest run! I haven't seen anything that bad out of spec in a while as far as mil-spec loadings go. Thats pretty disconcerting to say the least. Did you happen to take a measurement at the shoulder taper start and end? I'd be curious to know what they were on the unfired out-of-spec rounds you found.

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I did not get a shoulder length measurement but I did check the angle and it was fine there. I have used a unique measurement technique to get my measurements it works well as long as the case has not been deformed.

 

I will be checking weights and case capacity just to see where it stands. If it is true mil-spec. ammo it should be pretty tight.

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"16" barrels with hot loaded ammo gives you one heck of a fire ball and a concussion loud enough to wake any dummy at the range."

 

Woo...you're not kidding. Last night I ran off about 40 rds of XM193. Thankfully no flames from anywhere but the barrel! Observed from a side angle it's like a bloody flamethrower. For kicks I compared it to 7.62 X 39 (Wolf 124gr FMJ) through an SKS and it's not even close.

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I got two rounds from the wife of the fellow who had the Ruger. First round was speced and found to be acceptable in all respects. Second round, not so much. I did'nt see anything right away but I was sitting at the table and just happened to look at the round saw the seat depth looked sort of odd compared to the other round I took apart. For what it is worth the case lengths were with 0.002" of each other but the overall length differed by 0.012" this could have been a rough handled round as I'm sure we have all seen this (especially anybody who has ever chambered the same 357 Sig round more than twice) but the bullet was not loose in the case nor were there any obvious marks on the bullet itself that would lead me to think it had slid back at all. You can't tell a whole lot by the rounds I have pulled apart now but if I get some more of this stuff from the same lot then I'll be more than happy to send a few rounds so somebody else can see what I was seeing.

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Years ago I had a round of Western 30-06 go off like it was a .50BMG! Luckily I was shooting my 03-A3 and it withstood the blast. The guy to my left was almost fried by the HUGE blast out of the spit hole. The rounds were all in speck by external measurement - BUT - when shaking the rounds it became apparent that the powder fill was less than half the case capacity. From the level of the blast from the defective round we figured that it had been a DOUBLE load! Since then I shake all ammo to see if they use a powder that fills the cases,except Brit milsurp .303 that uses lose cordite, they all have 'rattle room ' in their cases.

How is the powder load in these rounds, is there enough room for an accidental factory over fill?

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IndyArms I would give you some ammo but I already gutted two thirds of my box.

 

The ammo has major variances. I have measured and weighed the primed brass, powder charge, bullet weight and it is VERY bad.

 

 

 

 

msgw357 I would not be to too surprised. The tolerances are well off and some well out of C.I.P. or SAAMI specs and way too dangerous.

 

I will be making a range visit this Saturday and I am willing to bet the accuracy tests will tell me the ammo is junk.

 

 

 

 

G O B a minimum charge should never go below 70% case capacity. If you go below a filler should be used to prevent the primer flame front from over shooting the powder charge and igniting the powder from both sides creating a catastrophic failure.

 

 

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