What's the best shot shell for home defense

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I think that what needs to be considered is that you are responsible both criminally and civilly for every projectile that leaves your weapon. Shooting 00 buckshot is like firing a quick volley of .32 caliber bullets that spread out as your distance the target increases. The typical room size is about 12'. If a shot is taken at this distance and is well centered on the target, all pellets should hit center mass. If the aim is slightly off or the distance is greater, there is the increasing possibility of pellets missing the target. Keep in mind also that stress levels, lighting and other factors may affect your aim. This is equivalent to missed .32 caliber shots.

 

 

Ummmmm....NOT in FLORIDA!

 

Please Google the "Stand Your Ground" law in FL and you will change your post to read, " you are responsible both criminally and civilly for every projectile that leaves your weapon.....but NOT in Florida!".

 

We have the right to use DEADLY FORCE if we are in fear for our life OR great bodily harm. FL is one of the best states in the country in which to be a gun owner! If somebody comes into my home, they will be greeted by SEVEN (7) rounds of #4 buckshot, and the best part is that I have the law on my side!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

FTS

 

 

WRONG!!! While deadly force is authorized on the person who puts you in fear for your life, if your neighbor or somebody walking down the street is struck by one of your projectiles you are responsible. That was the point of his post.

 

 

WATCH YOUR BACKGROUND!!!!!!!!

 

That is the first thing that they teach us in our CCW class! It's COMMON SENSE!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

FTS

 

Once again, this is where rule number 4 comes into play: Know your target AND WHAT'S BEYOND IT! Just because there is a wall doesn't mean that your projectile won't go through it.

 

You started this by telling someone else that they were wrong when you missed their entire point in the first place...

[spaniel 7]

Just an example of the brutal effectiveness of birdshot in a real-life HD situation:

 

http://www.police.nashville.org/news/media/2011/08/01d.htm

 

Apparently it terminated the entry, but do you trust your life to this?

[FL Thunder Stick 21]

Just an example of the brutal effectiveness of birdshot in a real-life HD situation:

 

http://www.police.na...2011/08/01d.htm

 

Apparently it terminated the entry, but do you trust your life to this?

 

 

It's too bad she didn't terminate all four of them!

 

 

FTS

[RobRez 1,895]

I may have to get some Meat out in the field! Build an Interior wall, and a Dividing wall, which is usually double thickness with a few sheets of drywall for fire resistance and a couple inces of space between them. These are what will typically be between apartments.

I have a hard time believing that a couple of 00 pellets will have the energy to inflict a serious wound after being shot through that! Meaning that I am more inclined to Shoot and Definitively eliminate a threat with an apparenty small risk of a neighbor getting any injuries. I don't think an individual pellet will carry sufficient velocity after that and I would rather be alive with a live family, facing a civil suit or whatever charges the police may think of, than be killed in my own home.

I did once shoot birdshot through 1 wall made with studs and insulation, with another single sheet of sheetrock placed 3 feet behind that. The result was that it made a 2" hole in the wall and the pellets bounced off of the second sheet of sheetrock, so I know for sure that I would Never count on it for defensive purposes unless I was being attacked by Pigeons.

I say 00 buck all the way.

What's the cheapest meat to go shoot?

On a side note I did have an accidental discharge with a .40 cal pistol ONCE!!!! Feel like a Major Tool, but shit happened. Fortunately I was alone, 4 feet from exterior wall in the house, bullet went through a plastic plant pot 6" in diameter, into wall and stopped in the 2"x4" stud. No alarming penetration with that round.

[ewoketeer 35]

Something to keep in mind: one 00 pellet is .33"--about the same as a .32 caliber handgun projectile. I'm not sure, but I would imagine the average velocity is on a par with the .32 Magnum. Now, multiply that by anywhere between 9 and 15. That's a lot of energy for two 1/2" panels of sheetrock to withstand ( the term Epic Fail comes to mind). I did look at the picture of Mr. Camacho. Yes, it looks like he lost an eye. The defender was probably using <#6 birdshot. Had she been using BB size or larger, the perp would most likely be deceased, even with the partial load that he did take. JMO.

[20nickels 21]

Just an example of the brutal effectiveness of birdshot in a real-life HD situation:

 

http://www.police.na...2011/08/01d.htm

 

Apparently it terminated the entry, but do you trust your life to this?

 

 

There are also tales of perps taking multiple shots of #4 buck and getting back up and running. Guy in Florida took a slug to the chest (nice shot) and fled in a stolen car only to turn himself in a week later. No tweety shot for me.

[bigj480 203]

Something to keep in mind: one 00 pellet is .33"--about the same as a .32 caliber handgun projectile. I'm not sure, but I would imagine the average velocity is on a par with the .32 Magnum. Now, multiply that by anywhere between 9 and 15. That's a lot of energy for two 1/2" panels of sheetrock to withstand ( the term Epic Fail comes to mind). I did look at the picture of Mr. Camacho. Yes, it looks like he lost an eye. The defender was probably using <#6 birdshot. Had she been using BB size or larger, the perp would most likely be deceased, even with the partial load that he did take. JMO.

 

All effective ammo goes through sheetrock. The FBI thoroughly debunked over penetration by showing that most shots miss and that the biggest danger to bystanders are weak rounds that require multiple shots, therefore increasing the likelihood of a miss. Again, bird shot was made for birds.

[hasdrubal 3]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

 

Buck has less penetration through drywall than 9mm and .45, if you're so worried about overpenetration that you won't use 00 buck, then you should probably sell your guns and buy a sword or something.

 

Seriously, don't use lethal force unless you're faced with the threat of death or serious bodily harm, and then hit what you're aiming at. At least in WA, the first part clears you from any criminal liability.

[montec 164]

I was just talking to guys from federal and they said 00 buck will go thru a perp and 5 walls. and said they would recommend in close quarters #7 or eve #8 from there bulk packs if your worried about bystanders or any innocent people. I just picked up 000 buck for $6 for 2 boxes. But also said depends on your distance but also said people need to go out and try different ammo @ the range and set up some targets to see which pattern they prefer and to check on penetration. I'll have both in my mag for HD both the black cloud and the 000 buck. But I will also go out to the range and see the pattern @ the distances that I would have in my home.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Winchester 2 3/4" 00B (9 pellets) from walmart.

 

My preferred HD load is Federal's 2 3/4" 00B flight control wad.

[hasdrubal 3]

Check this out, penetration of 00 buck in ballistic gel after one interior wall is about 17-18," which is about what you want in defense situations. Perhaps a little more if you consider that 12-18" is commonly recommended for pistol HP bullet performance, but note that after the wall, the pistol bullets actually penetrate farther. This is likely due to the HP cavity being filled with drywall material.

 

[jdtravers 637]

I was just talking to guys from federal and they said 00 buck will go thru a perp and 5 walls. and said they would recommend in close quarters #7 or eve #8 from there bulk packs if your worried about bystanders or any innocent people. I just picked up 000 buck for $6 for 2 boxes. But also said depends on your distance but also said people need to go out and try different ammo @ the range and set up some targets to see which pattern they prefer and to check on penetration. I'll have both in my mag for HD both the black cloud and the 000 buck. But I will also go out to the range and see the pattern @ the distances that I would have in my home.

 

+1

 

You have lost your best dynamic of using a shotgun for self defense if you don't use bird shot. I prefer #6 if given a choice, but #7 or #8 is good. You have to aim during a high stress situation for slugs/heavy buck, not good, might as well have the recoil management and shot capacity of a rifle.

 

With bird shot you can disable an armed perp by taking out a foot, elbow, or a hand/weapon flagging itself from behind a building, tree, vehicle, etc. You can't do that with slugs or heavy buck.

 

If I need the shotgun in a defensive/offensive close quarter situation and I want to kill; I am going to shoot the intruder in the face/head. I know my ability and I will get my hit.

 

Pattern your gun and know what the shot spread is out to 25 yards and adjust your loads on that data.

 

Slugs are for engagement over 25 yards, not for close quarter/home defense. We don't have zombies in this part of the country so I plan for "Real World" situations.

 

Have a plan, work the plan!

 

Jack

[JeffAvery 1]

"China-Mart".....now that's funny!

 

Home defense is 10' or less. Leave the bird shot for birds and snakes. The best choice is reduced recoil 00 buck shot. Sadly, you will have to leave the realms of China-Mart to get it. Ammotogo.com, abbleammo.com, cheaperthandirt.com, sportsmansguide.com are all good places.

[jdtravers 637]

Wound ballistics is like bench racing. The theory has been going on for numerous years and there is still not a definitive answer.

 

Like stopping power; Freight trains, tanks, 155 howitzers, etc have "Stopping" power. Everything else is shot placement and/or luck of the draw.

 

Seen a guy shot in the face with a .45 at close range and the bullet bounced around the outside/under the skin of his skull and out the back of his ear. Knocked him down for a few minutes, but he was back up and in the fight. Later said his head felt like a tuning fork!

 

Spent two years in Sudan during the war and in Darfur as an adviser to the African Union and that is where I really had the opportunity to observe wound ballistics and the damage done by small arms from the 7.62X39 up to the Russian DShK.

 

Sometimes entrance wounds were 3 times the diameter/damage as the clean/no damage, bullet diameter exit wound. .50 leaving a flesh wound one time and taking the hind quarter off a camel another.

 

Ballistic Gel is entertaining but is nothing more than an example of "Temporary Wound Cavitation", like slapping a fat woman's ass, it jiggles a lot and then goes back to normal, or so I am told. Only the brain, liver and heart are effected by Temporary Cavitation, maybe one other, I can't remember. Everything else recovers.

 

It is all about shot placement.

 

Stock/factory Saiga shotguns have a European cylinder bore. I WOULD NOT us bird shot for self defense. It would have a huge pattern.

 

I like bird shot out of my Modified Choked Shotgun, shooting #6 shot, 1 1/4 oz, at 1450 FPS. I KNOW exactly what pattern it has and what damage it will do within the limitations of its use, which for me is approximately 10-20 feet. This is also similar to what we used back in the early days of Counter Terrorist Operations for building clearing. As I stated in an earlier post, if you see an elbow, gun hand or any protruding body part behind hard cover, you can take it out and put the bad guy out of action long enough to accomplish your mission.

 

I don't think there is one shotgun load which will cover all situations. Gotta figure out what works for you.

 

Interesting subject, just like tactics. As long as you survive, then it worked. There are no experts in this area, many who think they are. There are just too many variables involved.

 

Proper shot placement will give you the highest first shot/kill percentage.

 

Still fun to talk about and speculate.

 

Jack

[RobRez 1,895]

I have a great idea for testing! How about me and my buckshot vs. You and your birdshot. We stand at 10 paces, wearing normal clothes and a leather jacket and we SHOOT EACH OTHER! Surviving Saiga12.com member gets to post the results!! Enough of all this "Theory" stuff Dang-it!

Edited September 14, 2011 by RobRez

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I was just talking to guys from federal and they said 00 buck will go thru a perp and 5 walls. and said they would recommend in close quarters #7 or eve #8 from there bulk packs if your worried about bystanders or any innocent people. I just picked up 000 buck for $6 for 2 boxes. But also said depends on your distance but also said people need to go out and try different ammo @ the range and set up some targets to see which pattern they prefer and to check on penetration. I'll have both in my mag for HD both the black cloud and the 000 buck. But I will also go out to the range and see the pattern @ the distances that I would have in my home.

 

 

Yeah and the guy on the phone at Comp Cams recommended a cam for my vortec headed 350 that was the same grind as my original cam that was in an engine rated at 180 horses...

 

Just because they work there, that doesn't mean they know much, there's a reason why they are sitting around answering the phone instead of doing something productive...

[montec 164]

I was just talking to guys from federal and they said 00 buck will go thru a perp and 5 walls. and said they would recommend in close quarters #7 or eve #8 from there bulk packs if your worried about bystanders or any innocent people. I just picked up 000 buck for $6 for 2 boxes. But also said depends on your distance but also said people need to go out and try different ammo @ the range and set up some targets to see which pattern they prefer and to check on penetration. I'll have both in my mag for HD both the black cloud and the 000 buck. But I will also go out to the range and see the pattern @ the distances that I would have in my home.

 

 

Yeah and the guy on the phone at Comp Cams recommended a cam for my vortec headed 350 that was the same grind as my original cam that was in an engine rated at 180 horses...

 

Just because they work there, that doesn't mean they know much, there's a reason why they are sitting around answering the phone instead of doing something productive...

 

You should have called me I could get you a better match then what they recommend and I use the same software that they do.

 

But some just anser phones but I suspect that since they were outside sales reps know a bit more then those behind a phone. They were in awe when I told then that I was using a saiga 12. Thought that was cool as shit.

[Devildogxd 2]

Check out the Box of Truth. This guy shoots all kinds of rounds through wall board and other items to test penetration. The guys at Remington are smoking crack if they say it will go through a person and 5 walls. Again check the article called,"Best Choices for Self Defence ammo". The guy that got shot by the bird shot proved one thing, he is still alive and if he had a gun he could have killed the home owner. Use bird shot on freakin birds.

[Devildogxd 2]

I took my own advice at Box of Truth and this is what he found. The N0 1 and 4 buckshot penetrated 6 sheets of

wall board and stopped on the 7th. The 9mm and 45 went through all 12 boards. He said he was surprised because

he was led to beleive the buckshot would penetrate even more than the pistol rounds. He then tried birdshot

\#4,6,8. It penetrated 2 boards not enough for defensive purposes! He then tells a story about one of his friends

who is a cop that saw a perp shot by birdshot that had a massive shallow wound that looked really nasty but didn't even knock the guy down! Thanks God he didn't have a gun. Check it out you might think differently about the shot gun as a defensive weapon, it will do the job nicely with the right ammo and not over penetrate, but can get you killed if you choose the wrong ammo.

[dyogi 6]

Ask a dozen people and you'll likely get a dozen different answers. No scientific methods to my choice just an educated guess. My first three rounds are the "bolo rounds", two lead balls connected by a steel cable. I'm thinking that it will cause great trauma with the two lead balls with the cable adding to the injuries slicing through tissue and any critical organ it may penetrate. I'm further thinking that the dragging cable will slow the penetration and prevent over penetration. While they are considered "gimmick" rounds, some test firing that I did looks promising at short distances. Like I said, no scientific methods used to make my choice, based only on hypothesis. Your mileage may vary!

 

Interesting testing video, of course IMHO, shooting ballistic gel is not a true simulation of effect on human tissue:

 

[RobRez 1,895]

I suppose that until we can get some of these, it will always be a tough balance of Too-much or Not-enough.

[Fallschirmjager667 729]

birdshot...... from a taurus judge of coarse

 

 

 

 

jk, another vote for remington 15 pellet 00 buck

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I was just talking to guys from federal and they said 00 buck will go thru a perp and 5 walls. and said they would recommend in close quarters #7 or eve #8 from there bulk packs if your worried about bystanders or any innocent people. I just picked up 000 buck for $6 for 2 boxes. But also said depends on your distance but also said people need to go out and try different ammo @ the range and set up some targets to see which pattern they prefer and to check on penetration. I'll have both in my mag for HD both the black cloud and the 000 buck. But I will also go out to the range and see the pattern @ the distances that I would have in my home.

 

 

Yeah and the guy on the phone at Comp Cams recommended a cam for my vortec headed 350 that was the same grind as my original cam that was in an engine rated at 180 horses...

 

Just because they work there, that doesn't mean they know much, there's a reason why they are sitting around answering the phone instead of doing something productive...

 

You should have called me I could get you a better match then what they recommend and I use the same software that they do.

 

But some just anser phones but I suspect that since they were outside sales reps know a bit more then those behind a phone. They were in awe when I told then that I was using a saiga 12. Thought that was cool as shit.

 

I didn't say that I bought his recommended cam but I'd say that what I chose is enough for me...

 

Edited September 17, 2011 by Caged

[patriot 7,197]

Best shotshell for HD?

 

 

 

 

Dragon's Breath.

 

 

[gunfun 3,931]

For the appartment in town with neighbors for me is #4 buck. The FBI likes it. For the boat in Alaska that has been my summer home for 13 seasons,

 

Other impressive videos:

 

of course every one has an opinion. The smart opinons can rely on ballistics tests done by various governments, and enthusiasts, and old men with wooden boxes.

 

Bottom line, if it is dangerous to the bad guy, it is dangerous to your neighbors. If it isn't dangerous to your neihbors, it is dangerous to you. Choose your own compromise.

 

The question has been asked a bunch of times, and all the polls here hasn't solved it yet. We do know a bunch of answers in 12 gauge that work great, so none of them are wrong answer. Which one is best? Who really knows.

[James Fenton 3]

Any body shot the shot shells that they used in Nam. I used to see them at the fun shows years ago. They were loaded with 1" steel fletchetts,"look like darts" about 20 to 25 in a round. In Nam they loaded alot of different shells for them, howitzer & larger shells I heard. Some have told me they through hands full of them out of planes over villages. I've seen larger ones too that they droped at higher altitudes. Must of been some nasty stuff. I never hear anybody talk about them here. See them on egay once & awhile. Just thought I'd ask. Might be illegal.

[kdbutler 563]

Any body shot the shot shells that they used in Nam. I used to see them at the fun shows years ago. They were loaded with 1" steel fletchetts,"look like darts" about 20 to 25 in a round. In Nam they loaded alot of different shells for them, howitzer & larger shells I heard. Some have told me they through hands full of them out of planes over villages. I've seen larger ones too that they droped at higher altitudes. Must of been some nasty stuff. I never hear anybody talk about them here. See them on egay once & awhile. Just thought I'd ask. Might be illegal.

 

I don't know much about flechette rounds, except that they've been used in some special wartime circumstances. I've read that they have been used as case shot for tanks in some anti-personnel applications. As far as HD or self-defense applications, the recommendations are generally go with whats been proven to work, and avoid "specialty" or "exotic" rounds", largely because there isn't much in the way of empirical data on them. Also, check your local and state laws regarding specialty ammunition. You may be legally able to own and shoot them on the range, but be in violation of the law if they are used defensively.

 

Disclaimer: I am the furthest thing from a shotgun ammo expert, so take my advice like any other on here: With a grain of salt, and do your own research. Good luck.

 

I've embedded the video 5-0 posted the link to in his post. It is geared towards LEO education, and shows what some exotic rounds can do to soft body armor and ballistic gelatin. The flechette round tests begin about 3 minutes into the video:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paPJqUA86jw

Edited September 21, 2011 by Kevin in Texas

[epbullen 21]

For my needs, it's Buckshot. You should first determine what your needs are.

 

 

Here in VA we don't have a Castle law, so deadly force can only be used (IIRC) if My/A loved one's life is in serious, serious danger from an intruder. Especially where I live in Northern VA, I wouldn't realistically consider using a semi-automatic shotgun to defend my life. That being said, I most definitely do not feel under-gunned with a bedside Mossberg 500 stacked with standard 00 Buckshot. I'm pretty confident I'll never have to worry about any kind of overwhelming opposition from multiple armed and dangerous pirates/johnny jihads/gangbangers/nazi zombies packing high powered weapons, or some other highly unlikely ridiculous scenario.

 

 

Shot placement is the AUTHORITY in stopping power with small arms. From an absolute perspective, a well placed wad full of either Buck OR Bird shot will more than likely kill, especially if the face/head is involved. YMMV with your choice of ammunition. Use the tools needed to get the job done. For me and my needs, It's some Buckshot on hand in a pump-action shotgun.

 

 

Some other things to consider are what you dwell in, and the relation of other people to your dwelling. Make sure you know the consequences of a stray pellet going somewhere you wouldn't expect, should the worst happen, and you actually have to defend your life and/or your loved one's lives. There is some serious speculation to be had on that subject. It again falls on you to determine what your needs are, and possible consequences of your actions.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2011 by Bullensmash

[pfmedic 8]

10 rounds of Remington Premier Nitro Sporting Clay Target Loads shot below the belt is surprisingly disabling. Regardless, 5 to 10 shots in his direction will keep the bad guy from moving around and earn him a helicopter ride to the trauma center. He will probably live. I haven't shot my drywall with it obviously but I'm pretty sure collateral damage will be minuscule.

[pfmedic 8]

If you think you can keep your cool, load the first 2 shots with a less-lethal round. Tell him to "sit the hell down and fut the shuck up!" If you get good results, call it good. If not, give him the rest. Its much easier to enjoy the triumph of stopping the intrusion when you didn't actually have to kill anyone. Just my 2 cents.

Edited September 30, 2011 by pfmedic