johndavidjack 0 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Greetings all, I've been reading this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/26422-ny-state-compliance/ I had a question about NYS compliance in terms of muzzle brakes and flash hiders. When I purchased my saiga12, it was bought in a different state (great deal), but I had to exchange the stock (US made) for the original one, which took away it's 922r compliance. I've decided that I want to get a muzzle break/flash hider to satisfy the 922r, since the barrel was threaded. I realize that no matter what I choose, it must be permanently affixed to the threads due to NYS AWB law. After reading through that thread, I'm confused about flash hiders. If they are permanently affixed (read: welded w/ a stop screw), are they still illegal? I'd like to get a simple and inexpensive flash hider or muzzle break, but I don't want to have my gunsmith permanently attach something that is illegal. Would something such as this be illegal in NYS, even if welded in place?: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-923/MD-ARMS-SAIGA-12/Detail I swear that I've seen them on other firearms, but I wanted to be sure before I made the decision... If even a simple flash hider as mentioned about is illegal, does anyone recommend a simple muzzle break? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XXasdf 29 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 NY has no restrictions on Flash hiders/bayonet lugs on Shotguns these will not add to your evil feature count unlike rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johndavidjack 0 Posted August 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 The whole muzzle device issue doesn't involve shotguns at all. For semi-auto shotguns in NY, the stipulations are: Shotguns To qualify as a SAW, a shotgun must be semiautomatic. As with semi-auto rifles, it must not have more than one "evil" feature. These "evil" features are as follows: * A fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds * A folding or telescoping stock * A pistol grip * The ability to accept a detachable magazine (Please note that while this is an evil feature of shotguns, it is not one for rifles) So any muzzle device you choose for your S12 is fine, on a state level, as long as you keep your 922 parts-count in check. -Former NY'er Wait, so going by that quote of the feature list, am I even required to have the brake/flash hider welded in place? I asked at a local firearms dealer, and they explained that it had to be welded in place (they listed the temperatures and everything). If not, I can purchase a barrel nut to keep it in place. Note, the barrel *is* threaded. I've read this before, but after you post, I checked here again: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=NY Sorry if I'm being naive, I'm just trying to be very careful here, NYS laws aren't the most clear... I don't want to take my firearm to the range with illegal parts on it. Again, I appreciate the help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) The dealer is incorrect. Shot guns are not the same a rifles. http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf “Assault weapon” is defined as: A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: • a folding or telescoping stock; • a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; • a bayonet mount; • a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; • a grenade launcher. • A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: • a folding or telescoping stock; • a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; • a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; • an ability to accept a detachable magazine. • A semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: • an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; • a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; • shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; • manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. • A semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm. • Any of the weapons, or functioning frames or receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as: • Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (All Models); • Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; • Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); • Colt AR-15; • Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; • SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; • Steyr AUG; • INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; • revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker • Assault weapons does not include: • any rifle, shotgun or pistol that: is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide action; or has been rendered permanently inoperable; or • An antique firearm as defined under federal law • A semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; • A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine; • A rifle, shotgun or pistol, or a replica or a duplicate thereof, specifically exempted from the federal assault weapon ban list as such weapon was manufactured on October 1, 1993. “Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition. There is an exception for an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition. Edited August 28, 2011 by Yeoldetool Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 The whole muzzle device issue doesn't involve shotguns at all. For semi-auto shotguns in NY, the stipulations are: Shotguns To qualify as a SAW, a shotgun must be semiautomatic. As with semi-auto rifles, it must not have more than one "evil" feature. These "evil" features are as follows: * A fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds * A folding or telescoping stock * A pistol grip * The ability to accept a detachable magazine (Please note that while this is an evil feature of shotguns, it is not one for rifles) So any muzzle device you choose for your S12 is fine, on a state level, as long as you keep your 922 parts-count in check. -Former NY'er Wait, so going by that quote of the feature list, am I even required to have the brake/flash hider welded in place? I asked at a local firearms dealer, and they explained that it had to be welded in place (they listed the temperatures and everything). If not, I can purchase a barrel nut to keep it in place. Note, the barrel *is* threaded. I've read this before, but after you post, I checked here again: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=NY Sorry if I'm being naive, I'm just trying to be very careful here, NYS laws aren't the most clear... I don't want to take my firearm to the range with illegal parts on it. Again, I appreciate the help. No. You can choose any sort of muzzle device for your S12, whether it's a brake or flash hider, and it does not need to be welded in place or otherwise permanently attached in any way. Muzzle devices on shotguns have no bearing in NY State law. Yeoldetool is right; you're dealer is incorrect. Either he is ignorant of the law (very common amongst gun shop owners/employees, as backwards as that sounds) or he's just trying to get money out of you by doing the welding work on your gun for you. Either way, don't believe him. It's spelled out perfectly clear in any NYS ban text you'll ever read; that muzzle devices on shotguns aren't even mentioned, nor prohibited/restricted in any way. One word of advice: Don't bother to try and educate your dealer on the issue. There's a 99% chance that he'll still think what he thinks, think you're wrong, and probably get upset at a customer correcting him. Ideally, I'd find a new shop to deal with. But that's just me. Where in NY are you? I'm sure myself or one of the current NYS residents here can point you to a reputable shop who knows what they're talking about. Lots of good guys from NY here on this board. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johndavidjack 0 Posted August 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 The whole muzzle device issue doesn't involve shotguns at all. For semi-auto shotguns in NY, the stipulations are: Shotguns To qualify as a SAW, a shotgun must be semiautomatic. As with semi-auto rifles, it must not have more than one "evil" feature. These "evil" features are as follows: * A fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds * A folding or telescoping stock * A pistol grip * The ability to accept a detachable magazine (Please note that while this is an evil feature of shotguns, it is not one for rifles) So any muzzle device you choose for your S12 is fine, on a state level, as long as you keep your 922 parts-count in check. -Former NY'er Wait, so going by that quote of the feature list, am I even required to have the brake/flash hider welded in place? I asked at a local firearms dealer, and they explained that it had to be welded in place (they listed the temperatures and everything). If not, I can purchase a barrel nut to keep it in place. Note, the barrel *is* threaded. I've read this before, but after you post, I checked here again: http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/#?st=NY Sorry if I'm being naive, I'm just trying to be very careful here, NYS laws aren't the most clear... I don't want to take my firearm to the range with illegal parts on it. Again, I appreciate the help. No. You can choose any sort of muzzle device for your S12, whether it's a brake or flash hider, and it does not need to be welded in place or otherwise permanently attached in any way. Muzzle devices on shotguns have no bearing in NY State law. Yeoldetool is right; you're dealer is incorrect. Either he is ignorant of the law (very common amongst gun shop owners/employees, as backwards as that sounds) or he's just trying to get money out of you by doing the welding work on your gun for you. Either way, don't believe him. It's spelled out perfectly clear in any NYS ban text you'll ever read; that muzzle devices on shotguns aren't even mentioned, nor prohibited/restricted in any way. One word of advice: Don't bother to try and educate your dealer on the issue. There's a 99% chance that he'll still think what he thinks, think you're wrong, and probably get upset at a customer correcting him. Ideally, I'd find a new shop to deal with. But that's just me. Where in NY are you? I'm sure myself or one of the current NYS residents here can point you to a reputable shop who knows what they're talking about. Lots of good guys from NY here on this board. I'm based out of Rochester. The dealer referred me to someone he knows that is not directly affiliated with the shop. That still doesn't excuse the ignorance of the law, on my part, or his. I clearly explained the situation (from my first post in the thread), and the dealer made it clear that the brake/hider needed to permanently affixed to the barrel, which is in fact false (going off of this forum and *more* careful reading of the NYS law on AWB). It seems clear that he was thinking of the NYS law in concerns to rifles, instead of shotguns, as multiple people have pointed out in this thread. The best part is, I called the gunsmith shop the dealer referred me to, and they said they couldn't do the work, so I looked elsewhere for possible shops. What a mess... Thank everyone for the help on this! PS: Could we have a forum administrator move this thread to the saiga compliance forum so it doesn't clutter up the front page, and give an easy way for other NYers to find this in case of similar questions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Tims on rt 5 would be a drive for you, but its a pretty descent place. Talk to Indyarms, he might know of some out your way, he's from the Auburn area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYR99JF 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey all, I just ordered the JT Engineering Competition Brake for my saga 12 from Carolina Shooters. I live in NY and like most that live here are fed up with the stupid gun laws here...just a quick question for you fellow NYers..if I moved the trigger group forward using the tromix FCG(3), changed the gas puck to the CSS(1), put on a UTG Rail system(1) and used US made mags(3), I would be 922r compliant correct??? Would the Thumbhole stock from KVAR be legal in NY? I believe I read in another thread that it is...and last, just confirming if the brake mentioned above has to be pinned and welded on the Saiga 12?? I would think that if the threaded barrel was illegal in NY that it couldn't be sold here period!! I always thought Shotguns can legally have threaded barrels because they can be choked..I just want to confirm all the because I really do not want to weld anything that doesn't have to be welded especially since I plan on getting out of this state as soon as I can retire LOL...Carolina Shooters also informed me that the JT engineering brake counts as 1 922r part also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yes to all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hey all, I just ordered the JT Engineering Competition Brake for my saga 12 from Carolina Shooters. I live in NY and like most that live here are fed up with the stupid gun laws here...just a quick question for you fellow NYers..if I moved the trigger group forward using the tromix FCG(3), changed the gas puck to the CSS(1), put on a UTG Rail system(1) and used US made mags(3), I would be 922r compliant correct??? Would the Thumbhole stock from KVAR be legal in NY? I believe I read in another thread that it is...and last, just confirming if the brake mentioned above has to be pinned and welded on the Saiga 12?? I would think that if the threaded barrel was illegal in NY that it couldn't be sold here period!! I always thought Shotguns can legally have threaded barrels because they can be choked..I just want to confirm all the because I really do not want to weld anything that doesn't have to be welded especially since I plan on getting out of this state as soon as I can retire LOL...Carolina Shooters also informed me that the JT engineering brake counts as 1 922r part also. You are correct on everything, except you do not need to pin and weld anything on the end of the barrel of a S-12. The only time that would be needed is if you has a smith chop your barrel under 18 inches and fix a device to the end to make up the remaining barrel length you need not to be under 18". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYR99JF 0 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Thanks Nailbomb, I appreciate it...isn't the the stock(the one from KVAR) you have on your Saiga 12? I know I saw someone on here with it I think...they currently have the stocks for both milled and stamped receivers in stock...I ordered the stamped one but actually have one for a milled receiver that I ordered a while ago because thats all they had at the time, they are only 10 bucks so if anyone wants them go check out KVARs site, I also ordered the long screw for the grip section....I will give an update when all work is complete. thanks Yeoldetool I appreciate it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 No my thumbhole stock is a bulgarian one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NYR99JF 0 Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 ok thanks again for the help and the info Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 So how would one go about attaching a muzzle brake to comply with the assault weapons ban on a Saiga rifle? ...If I also want to convert it to a pistol grip? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Blind pin, weld at least 1/2 the circumference, or Silver solder it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 None of those are easily removed, correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thats the idea, yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Foxtrot Oscar 37 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 I meant undo-able Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Depending on how you get it welded, the weld CAN be removed... some touch up paint and you are all set... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Oh, they're all undoable. Its just a matter of the work involved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 I thought silver solder would be the most undo-able... since you're going to heat the hell out of the barrel anyway! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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