alexanderthegreat 1 Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 I am getting my Saiga 12 converting and was wondering about the difference between using faux rivets on the trigger holes vs welding. Is this just a cosmetic thing? Is it better to have the old trigger holes welding? Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rob-cubed 74 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 It's cosmetic. The poly hole plugs look pretty good but purists want the holes welded over. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macaholic 5 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I am getting my Saiga 12 converting and was wondering about the difference between using faux rivets on the trigger holes vs welding. Is this just a cosmetic thing? Is it better to have the old trigger holes welding? Thanks. Personally, I would like to have had the holes on my first Saga-12 riveted, but I didn't know anyone who could install the rivets, so I ended up welding them. What a pain in the ass that was. Edited August 28, 2011 by macaholic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Whenever welding you have to consider refinishing. You'll have to remove alt more paint welding and blending. (I prefer welding cause it's looks better when done correctly.) Rivets or plugs are quick cheap and don't mess the paint. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kodaline 178 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Rivets or plugs are safer. Welding affects the tempering of the steel. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Rivets or plugs are safer. Welding affects the tempering of the steel. Tromix has welded thousands of receivers with no ill effects. I'm not a Tromix fanboy, but this is truth. I have welded 5 different Saiga 12s myself and as long as you don't get absolutely stupid with it, the areas that are critical are not harmed by the heat (conversion trigger and ahmmer axis pin holes). Plug yours.... I'll take mine welded Scope rail holes too! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) Without close inspection, painted over holes plugs can be really hard to discern from actual rivets. Easy and inexpensive. Plus, for those who're paranoid, it'd be easy to return the firearm to Import configuration. Rivets are cheap, fairly easy and look good. No real cons other than cosmetic preference if not done well. Welded looks really good, but it does require a complete refinishing of the receiver. It also requires someone who knows what they're doing so as to avoid unnecessarily overheating the receiver. Yes heat can affect the hardening of the steel, but done correctly it is really a non-issue. Somebody show me a case where a decent welding job caused cracks or a failure? Edited August 28, 2011 by ChileRelleno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 (edited) I am getting my Saiga 12 converting and was wondering about the difference between using faux rivets on the trigger holes vs welding. Is this just a cosmetic thing? for me personally it was a "cheap bas*rd" and fast thing. 4 poly hole plugs 50 cents vs. sending the thing off, for god knows how long before mr. gunsmith decides to weld up the holes and then refinishing it. the poly hole plugs look just as good as rivets, and are easy to install. I went to LOWES and got mine Edited August 28, 2011 by Matthew Hopkins 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alexanderthegreat 1 Posted August 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 MH. Can you some pics of your Saiga? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Here are mine with cheap plastic plugs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kodaline 178 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I should have clarified. Welding the receiver affects the temper of the metal to SOME degree. Some people are cool with it, others are not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha Kilo 42 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I should have clarified. Welding the receiver affects the temper of the metal to SOME degree. Some people are cool with it, others are not. To what degree? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I should have clarified. Welding the receiver affects the temper of the metal to SOME degree. Some people are cool with it, others are not. To what degree? I too was skeptical and fearful of the effects of welding on the sheetmetal receiver. After trying it myself, I realized that if you use the proper settings and a copper backer, the heat is fairly isolated to the specific area that you are welding. I'm not saying that I would let just anyone weld on my receiver, but when properly done, I see no ill effects. The holes that need filling are so far from the trigger axis pin holes and receiver rails that one would literally have to blow holes in the receiver before affecting these areas. The change in temper is very localized and I have a very hard time believing that there may be legitimate ill effects to the performance of the weapon that are directly related to welding the holes shut. I don't know it all, by far, but I know a little and this is just my opinion from my limited experience. I used to use the vinyl plugs and see nothing wrong with it if you don't want to send the weapon out, can't afford to, are in a hurry, or just don't have the tool/resources to weld it yourself. The USA is still a free country, so do as you choose and enjoy the weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kodaline 178 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I should have clarified. Welding the receiver affects the temper of the metal to SOME degree. Some people are cool with it, others are not. To what degree? That question is beyond the scope of an internet forum. If you'd like to hire me to find precisely what amounts of welding affect the temper of that particular steel enough to induce failure after a specified number of rounds, then I'm available. Otherwise, understand that what I said was a generality, and that some people are fine with taking that small risk and others prefer to keep the weapon at factory strengths. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 MH. Can you some pics of your Saiga? here is a close up of it, it looks just like rivets, same size and curve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 MH. Can you some pics of your Saiga? here is a close up of it, it looks just like rivets, same size and curve +1 The nylon plugs that are commonly found at Lowes are strikingly similar to the factory rivets. The diameter and radius are very close. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Mivet 6 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Even with welding equipment and skills I say plugs, as noted, flexibility in configuration choice, and as noted, you do affect the receiver, to what effect? I dunno, why chance it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JonnyDingDongs 158 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 One thing I feel is worth mentioning is that leaving the holes and popping in the plastic plugs will allow a little flexibility down the road. I was glad I didn't fill them in when I decided to throw an ACE stock on and use the internal receiver block. If you've decided on the exact configuration for your firearm, welding would be the best cosmetic (if not monetary) choice, IMO. Just another $0.02 worth..! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 Even with welding equipment and skills I say plugs, as noted, flexibility in configuration choice, and as noted, you do affect the receiver, to what effect? I dunno, why chance it? It looks better and not everyone can do it for $0.50. Exclusivity, if you will. It separates most of the DIY guys from the pros and is generally the mark of a quality conversion. However, I must admit that I have seen some horrendous attempts at welding those holes and blending the area. Maybe Tony Rumore can chime in and tell everyone why he has chanced it thousands of times and stands behind that choice. If he does something to Saiga 12s on a regular basis, it is a pretty safe bet that it is a good idea as long as it is done properly. Not a "fanboy".... just saying. Respect for skill and technique where it is due.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 One thing I feel is worth mentioning is that leaving the holes and popping in the plastic plugs will allow a little flexibility down the road. I was glad I didn't fill them in when I decided to throw an ACE stock on and use the internal receiver block. If you've decided on the exact configuration for your firearm, welding would be the best cosmetic (if not monetary) choice, IMO. Just another $0.02 worth..! I absolutely understand this point. In my case, how ridiculous would an AK100 folder and nylon plugged holes look? If you are not 'done' yet and may be inclined to want to change things later, then welding may not be the best option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 I used the receiver block that has the extra allen head screws in those locations, so those holes are actually doing something useful by adding stiffness to the stock attachment of my S-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
poolingmyignorance 2,191 Posted August 28, 2011 Report Share Posted August 28, 2011 The receiver is heat treated carbon steel. Welding those tiny little holes that have no play what so ever in any moving part isn't going to hurt anything. Certianly leaving them empty or pluged with cheap plastic, is potentialy more of a risk. (which is none at all). Just clean the paint throughly from the holes, use a copper backing plate ( a penny would be about the right size, not that I'd deface US currency) and use a 1/16th tig rod with low heat. Arc to the copper backing and bring the heat to the receiver, and add your rod. If using mig, use and 0.035" wire and trigger it in on the backing plate and bring the puddle to the edge of the hole. Then blend with a tiger disk or flapper wheel on a die grinder, and work your way to emory cloth on up till it's blended to your satisfaction. Don't worry no need to "hire" me. This is pretty fucking basic shit. Good luck. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Molive 2 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 MH. Can you some pics of your Saiga? here is a close up of it, it looks just like rivets, same size and curve +1 The nylon plugs that are commonly found at Lowes are strikingly similar to the factory rivets. The diameter and radius are very close. Is a specific size or brand of plug to look for? I'd like to get some, don't wanna go and there be a plethora of plug sizes and options. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
erwos 12 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 I had mine welded and refinished with Cerakote by JT. It looks SO much better that way, and no nylon plugs to accidentally fall out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 MH. Can you some pics of your Saiga? here is a close up of it, it looks just like rivets, same size and curve +1 The nylon plugs that are commonly found at Lowes are strikingly similar to the factory rivets. The diameter and radius are very close. Is a specific size or brand of plug to look for? I'd like to get some, don't wanna go and there be a plethora of plug sizes and options. Thanks I think CSS has some that are really close too. There isn't a huge selction of them at Lowes, so it should be fairly obvious which ones you need. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 I had mine welded and refinished with Cerakote by JT. It looks SO much better that way, and no nylon plugs to accidentally fall out. I've welded and used plugs both. If you use plugs heat up a exacto knife and melt the inside to get them to retain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Scratch 91 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Just don't let your hilljack bro-in-law weld on your receiver for the sake of trying to make it look purdy. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66017-i-cracked-my-s12-recieverpics/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 [is a specific size or brand of plug to look for? I'd like to get some, LOWES has it, at least here in NE ohio, it's 3/16" Nylon Hole Plug BLACK (Hillman # 881274). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Just don't let your hilljack bro-in-law weld on your receiver for the sake of trying to make it look purdy. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66017-i-cracked-my-s12-recieverpics/ That was due to the trunnion not being fitted right, then welded wrong. If someone welds the trunnion in, they need to first fit it right, then run beads. Not simply do rosette welds where the rivets go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 No offense, AZI, but.... when good ideas go bad. Welding that AK100 in was blasphemy. Rivets.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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