SHTF optics for 2AKs and an RPK

[datrowl 111]

OK guys, I'm outfitting our SHTF guns with optics... I have roughly 1500.00 to blow on 3 scopes, would like your thoughts!

 

Wifes WASR10/63 7.62 - This gun is running Magpul MOE stock, poly quad rail, willing to use side mount flat top, Ultimak gas tube, or existing rail on top of quad as needed, prefer to stay away from the dogleg style mounts. would like no mag or low mag quick aquisition sight, red dot, reflex, max shot distance 300 yards, 99% of all shots fired within 100 yards. last resort shooter, remember I said SHTF, and with any luck will be getting distance with my son while I cover with RPK. prefer something non battery, but will consider battery backup as long as its useful without... Tritium illuminated, solar, etched glass reticle...something to keep it working in the bush if the batteries crap out. She's not gonna be real good with an eye weld scope... needs something with 4 to 6 inches distance between eyes and scope without focus issues

 

 

Son's WASR10/63 UF 7.62 - running standard underfold stock thus no side rail option, need Ultimak or quad rail mount for the Krebs underfolder quad. The Krebs already makes the rifle VERY front heavy combined with the low weight folding stock, the guns balence is shit but he loves it and dosen't want to upgrade to a more " full size " rifle...due to the nature of the mount needing to be used, I'm expecting a far forward mount position facilitateing the need for a long eye relief optic as well... another last resort shooter thus close proximity targets, assume 100 yards or closer for 99% of shots with rest comeing under 300.

 

 

My RPK 7.62 AES 10B - has collapsable AR style stock, can be shoulder fired if needed but better on bipod provideing cover fire to buy the other 2 distance between unfriendlies and them. has side rail option, quad rail option, Ultimak option avaliable if needed (though with the drums I have for it, would be VERY concerned about heat with the Ultimak)... would like something that can be used from prone position shooting from bipod but still useful if thrown to shoulder while standing. More concerned with provideing supressive cover fire than hitting targets behind cover at longer ranges though from my experiences, it will preform that role as well. actually toyed with the idea of some sort of quick target dot sight mounted forward on quad railfor supressive fire and useing sidemount for PSO 4X scope for any distance/accuracy needs.

 

 

would like to have all 3 without batteries, or without NEED for batteries, would also like to stay away from anything rendered useless by dead tritium in 10 or so years.... I've done alot of lookin at the NPZ options at Kalinka,also looked at some of the lower end ACOGs, Aimpoints, and EOTechs.... just not overly familiar with this stuff, always had LOTS of guns, never had much use for optics other than scopes for the 308s and such....

 

Anyone able to assess my info and make a few solid points in the right direction? getting into FoV and eye relief has fried my noggin, I've spent 3 days researching and have less of an idea NOW as to how to proceed than I did when I started.

 

The 500.00 per optic rule is not hard and fast by any means... its just a ballpark I feel comfortable with outfitting rifles I honestly hope never need to be used. if theres something thats clearly a perfect fit let me know, even if its a bit over or under that ballpark, not worried about the cost near as much as I am getting this right, and my knowledge in this area is too limited to trust my own judgement.

 

 

Thx in advance

[Horse 39]

Are you counting mounts in with your $500 each?

[datrowl 111]

nope, the 500 per guideline is just for the optic itself, anything needed to make that optic work, be it a side rail, ultimak or otherwise falls under my budget for " accessories " which is a catch all for anything not rifle, mag or optic related.... I know its weird and makes no sense, its just the way I have it broken down though LOL,

 

 

as a side note, found 2 EOTechs today for 350.00 each NIB and 1 EOTech brand 3x magnifier for about 350 as well... was thinking one with the magnifier on the rpk? and the other on Momma's gun leaveing me just the underfolder to worry about... not sure the exact model of em, but they were AA battery type, had bases and mounts already ( they all may? ) and the 3x maginifier has a side fold attachment to get it out of the way when not needed for the longer range shots..... thoughts?

[Horse 39]

People who I trust to be right have told me many times not to use Eotechs - especially the AA models. Not only that, but they do not meet your base criteria.

 

For your sons gun I would suggest an Ultimak with an Aimpoint T/H1. That combo could be had for less than $600 if you look around. I know you don't want batteries, but up front like that it is the only suitable choice. I guess if you don't mind you could get Trijicon Tripowers. Alternatively you could get RMR's and appropriate US Palm hand guards that mount them.

 

For your wife and yourself I would use the side rail. I don't say this becuase I sell side rail mounts, but because they are really good. For your wife's gun I would suggest an Aimpoint M2/3 or Tripower and for yours - well the sky is the limit.

[datrowl 111]

bummer to hear about the EOTechs... the ones I fiddeled with today seemed really solid and looked like they would just about fit the bill other than the fact that they were rendered useless by lack of batteries =o( still was hopeing at 350 per they would be a solid enough choice to overlook that aspect. Horse, anything specifically wrong with em that you know of?

 

 

Aimpoint is gonna put me in the same boat without batteries no?... would the Russian Rakers not be a close replacement that would at least function without the batteries? ugh... this is gonna fry my last brain cell for sure!

 

 

The ACOG Tripower I was looking at earlier seems to be a really solid choice, side rail on those ya think? hummm.... might just run that setup then, was worried about the short eye relief on em to be honest, and haveing to eye fuck em like a high mag scope for em to be useful

 

 

guys feel free to chime in here... other opinions more than welcome! Thoughts anyone?

[Parf 19]

3 Aimpoint Micro H-1's on Ultimaks or RSRegulate side rail mounts as soon as Horse gets off of his keister and gets it into production. That would be durable and light weight sights that run off of a little battery you could keep always on for 5 years between battery changes. The unused batteries have a 10 year shelf life, and don't cost much at home depot. I keep an extra in the grip of the gun.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Parf

[Parf 19]

Eotech's make me uncomfortable, BUT....I believe if you buy the more expensive lithium AA batteries (the disposable kind, not rechargable LiOn) they don't fade with the heat and have a huge shelf life, too. I just have heard too many bad things about the Eotechs to save $100 dollars over an Aimpoint H-1.

[BpS12 512]

I don't know much about the high end optics but was really likeing the "reflex sight with magnifier" idea. that was my first thought after reading your post. Can you get one with etched glass or maybe light fibered, instead of batteried?

[Horse 39]

I got to play with a Rakurs though not shoot with it - quality optic if you ask me. Much lighter than it looks too.

 

If you ask me the ultimate optic is still an ACOG- but only in certain circumstances. I particularly like the 1.5X special short housing models, though they present additional challenges.

 

I would ask TX-Zen for some additional input on some Russian spec optics that might fit the bill.

[datrowl 111]

I sent him a PM.... long story short, he was unwilling or unable to offer advice.

 

 

I think the solution I'm gonna end up going with is... buy a 30.00 chinese Acog, a 30.00 chinese aimpoint, and a 30.00 EOTech, a few 10.00 chinese side rails and mounts.... a roll of duct tape... and take all the crap out to the range and play with style placement, function and etc etc to get a " feel " for each of the higher end optic "styles" before decideing which "style" works best on each rifle... then drop back and get the best I can afford of the style optic that we decided was best suited for that shooter and their rifle.

 

end result is... we blow a hundred bucks on future target practice materials... but feel more confident in our choices moveing forward and have a fun family range day doing the testing in the process.

 

 

thx for the input guys, it seems there is no easy answer to this one.... too subjective with no clear right direction to proceed

 

 

 

for the record, yes, I understand a 30.00 chinese anything is not even in the same ballpark as the other optics mentioned.. quality, eye relief, brightness, clarity, all these things and more will suffer greatly, its more the mount style and placement I'm interested in I guess and should give us a few solid ideas about what we like and dislike from each optic style and mount location... for our needs, it should suffice

 

 

P.S. sorry to have drug anyone into my "deluded fantasy" that wasen't a willing participant, I promise you, there are some mistakes I only make once....

 

 

end thread

[TX-Zen 287]

I apologize for not being able to zero you in exactly what you should do, I'm just not comfortable telling people what optic they should use for a real SHTF situation. I know what I'd do but I have a really different persepective on SHTF than many people. I'm also ex military with a corresponding healthy appreciation for sh*t breaks all the time, I don't believe in chasing endless what-if's or running down every detail to account for all scenarios. And I don't believe in the often narrow view that the best gear is going to make the difference, I believe it's the training first and foremost.

 

 

My PM wasn't meant as a refusal to help...I'm happy to answer any technical questions on how the Russian optics work. But I'm not the guy who wants you to make serious decisions that affect your family based on my subjective opinion...because mine is based on what I would do. I can only share my technical experience, I'm not in the position to tell you what you the best choice is because there are too many variables.

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited August 30, 2011 by TX-Zen

[flashpoint08 0]

personally for SHTF combat optic I am considering this one, as it's a nice red dot but also can work with out batteries which would be very beneficial in a SHTF situation.

 

PK-AS dual black/red dot. it's the run down from kalinka

 

"The PK-AS, an advanced version of the PKS-01, is the newest in tactical optics designed specifically for the combat operations of the Russian Special Forces. You will find it on the elite units of the Russian MVD; police, Spetznaz, OMON and others. State-of-the-art technology makes it the premier collimator optic in the Russian arsenal. It not only fills the role of the traditional red dot as a CQB short range/fast acquisition sight, but also has unique features designed specifically for longer range combat shooting. It boasts a unique ability to facilitate single shot kills out to 400 meters when used with the AK-74. It is rare that such advanced technology is available to civilians, especially to foreigners. Using the newest machining techniques, the quality of this amazing sight is equal to US military optics which cost many times more. Its fully coated prismatic lens system provides a remarkable, high contrast, wide angle field of view allowing for fast acquisition of moving and spaced targets. Its most unique feature is its state-of-the-art black dot-red dot operation. Under normal daylight conditions, a precise 1 MOA black dot enclosed in a simple elliptical range-finding circle (170 MOA) is always visible without the use of the battery. When needed, a flip of the switch activates a 1.5 MOA red dot. This flexibility allows the PK-AS round the clock effectiveness in all environments. This dual functioning is available in no other collimator sight. Another great feature is the exceeding ease of making alignment adjustments using its indexed ballistic cam. This thumbwheel style range turret is calibrated in equal 2 MOA increments which makes it easy to use the sight with any caliber rifle. The non-magnification design allows for both-eyes-open shooting eliminating eyestrain. You have an unlimited field of view and maximum ability to register incoming targets. The precision dot system combined with the striking field of view produced by the high quality lens system provides far superior accuracy at distances equal to and exceeding those capable with iron sights. The advanced elliptical range finder accurately quotes distance. The PK-AS AK Version mounting clamp is capable of fitting properly to almost all types of AK side mount rail designs. It has a special stop pin system which allows you to quickly adjust the mount for proper eye relief and increased aiming comfort. It is very light weight while being battle-field tough. There is no other collimating sight for the Kalashnikov equal to the PK-AS. Please note they no longer come with the lens cap. This sight is also available with a Western rail mount for Weaver, Picatinny, dovetail and similar mounting rails and for the SKS/SVD side rail."

[TX-Zen 287]

Personally I love the PK-AS and have used it for a long time on several 74's. I used it for a while on my S12 too but unfortunately the S12 beat it up pretty good.

 

Kalinka's description is excellent and in practice the optic works pretty darn well. Actually up until last year the PK-AS was my favorite combloc red dot by far.

 

 

But these days the 1P76 Rakurs does everything the PK-AS does and more...think of it as an improved version that has eliminated the few disadvantages of the PK-AS. For example Rakurs is centered over the bore and relatively low...easier for Western shooters to get used to it. PK-AS is actually good in a dynamic situation partly because of the left offset but most people can't get past how far left it is. They get turned off and don't spend the time to get to know it. Other people can't get over the higher position for the model that's centered over the bore. There is eye relief on the PK-AS and you must train to get used to it, Rakurs has none.

 

While I love the always on black dot (and the ring too) it does need batteries for low light. Not really a show stopper IMO but again Rakurs needs none at all. No optic that I know of has the FOV of the PK-AS when used with both eyes open, the body is so thin it effectively disappears during shooting and all you see is the dot and ring. 1P63 Obzor is close, but even Rakurs isn't that good, though that doesn't override the other features of the Rakurs, to me anyway.

 

PK-AS is a little lighter than Rakurs. It's hard to say which is tougher or more durable but I'm leaning toward Rakurs just because the scope body is massive compared to the glass and it's a little more shrouded than the PK-AS. Rakurs has a different clamping mechanism which in my subjective observation allows it to mount to a wider variety of rail tolerances. The PK-AS is a universal mount but the design is less adjustable compared to the NPZ universal AK based we see on many optics.

 

Zeroing the PK-AS is tricky and can be difficult. This is also a turn off to first time users. Rakurs is really simple, a dime or a screw driver is all you need. Both have proven to me to have repeatable and dependable return to zero, something I think is generally true of most combloc optics. You sometimes have to be aware that different builders or factory runs may not have the rails done correctly 100% of the time but in my experience it's relatively rare and not a show stopper. For your SHTF rifle you'd want to have trained with your optic way before D Day, the problem if any will be obvious long before it's too late to fix it.

I've had 10-12 different AK's and currently 19 different optics. Only one optic had a problem with the mount. My PSL had a canted rail that affected zero (reticule at the very top of the LPS field of view) and one of my two SGL31's has a canted rail which doesn't affect any optic zero, it's just different from the other SGL.

 

 

Anyway not to drag on but while the PK-AS is a really good optic, 1P76 Rakurs is the same concept but improved on. I think the Rakurs is the evolutionary improvement based experience with the PK-AS.

 

 

 

Z

Edited August 31, 2011 by TX-Zen

[flashpoint08 0]

Personally I love the PK-AS and have used it for a long time on several 74's. I used it for a while on my S12 too but unfortunately the S12 beat it up pretty good.

 

Kalinka's description is excellent and in practice the optic works pretty darn well. Actually up until last year the PK-AS was my favorite combloc red dot by far.

 

 

But these days the 1P76 Rakurs does everything the PK-AS does and more...think of it as an improved version that has eliminated the few disadvantages of the PK-AS. For example Rakurs is centered over the bore and relatively low...easier for Western shooters to get used to it. PK-AS is actually good in a dynamic situation partly because of the left offset but most people can't get past how far left it is. They get turned off and don't spend the time to get to know it. Other people can't get over the higher position for the model that's centered over the bore. There is eye relief on the PK-AS and you must train to get used to it, Rakurs has none.

 

While I love the always on black dot (and the ring too) it does need batteries for low light. Not really a show stopper IMO but again Rakurs needs none at all. No optic that I know of has the FOV of the PK-AS when used with both eyes open, the body is so thin it effectively disappears during shooting and all you see is the dot and ring. 1P63 Obzor is close, but even Rakurs isn't that good, though that doesn't override the other features of the Rakurs, to me anyway.

 

PK-AS is a little lighter than Rakurs. It's hard to say which is tougher or more durable but I'm leaning toward Rakurs just because the scope body is massive compared to the glass and it's a little more shrouded than the PK-AS. Rakurs has a different clamping mechanism which in my subjective observation allows it to mount to a wider variety of rail tolerances. The PK-AS is a universal mount but the design is less adjustable compared to the NPZ universal AK based we see on many optics.

 

Zeroing the PK-AS is tricky and can be difficult. This is also a turn off to first time users. Rakurs is really simple, a dime or a screw driver is all you need. Both have proven to me to have repeatable and dependable return to zero, something I think is generally true of most combloc optics. You sometimes have to be aware that different builders or factory runs may not have the rails done correctly 100% of the time but in my experience it's relatively rare and not a show stopper. For your SHTF rifle you'd want to have trained with your optic way before D Day, the problem if any will be obvious long before it's too late to fix it.

I've had 10-12 different AK's and currently 19 different optics. Only one optic had a problem with the mount. My PSL had a canted rail that affected zero (reticule at the very top of the LPS field of view) and one of my two SGL31's has a canted rail which doesn't affect any optic zero, it's just different from the other SGL.

 

 

Anyway not to drag on but while the PK-AS is a really good optic, 1P76 Rakurs is the same concept but improved on. I think the Rakurs is the evolutionary improvement based experience with the PK-AS.

 

 

 

Z

 

thanks for the info I'll have to check out the Rakurs!

[Horse 39]

If you are dead set to get something that does not need batteries you are going to be limited to either no illumination or Tritium. Tritium products half life is around 10 years, so after 10 years you should send them back to the MFG for an update/refit.

 

 

 

These two objectives are counter points to your original requirements.

 

 

Again I would suggest you do a little more research and a lot less speculating and buying of cheap chinese optics that do not give you what you are after.

 

 

 

If you want to use the side rail - decide if you want the best you can get from either a "western" or "eastern" perspective. If the former, look strongly at both Aimpoint and Trijicon products, though not really their Tripower or RX08 Reflex II style optics. If the latter, consult our commie optics slut TX-Zen who can give you LOTS of information most people have no clue about.

 

Once you decide on your optic of choice, find a mount to make it work.

 

Done.

 

 

 

 

 

For your son's gun: MI/USP or Ultimak

 

For your wife: Side Rail

 

For you: Side Rail

 

 

 

Now decide on the requirements of your optics, vs your wants.

 

Post your decision matrix for others to give you feedback or constructive critisicm (what Zen was already doing. . .)

 

 

 

Have fun!

[datrowl 111]

By way of update, We settled on the PK-AS, they arrived today and are installed with a zero trip already planed for the range this weekend, we got 2 of the true AK siderail models as after reading I found they set square center and low as opposed to the universal mounts which sit to the left side. and one with the weaver mount for the UF to forward mount on the top quad rail.

 

Initial impression is VERY pleased with what I'm seeing, I throw any of the weapons to shoulder with both eyes open and can not see the optic, just the red dot itself hovering perfectly placed in front of my natural shooting position. They are built like a tank, perfectly center, VERY low, rifles are still disassembleable with them installed but the gap I would say in closer to 1/8th inch than 1/4. They lock up super tight, no wobble or play at all.

 

I can't express how pleased I am with them, and the black dot feature makes them perfect for use in all but darkness if the batteries fail. I can live with that.

 

I want to thank everyone who helped in this decision, eithor by way of post in this thread or by PM. I can't believe I'd be as overall pleased as I am with the PK-AS with any other optic and can't reccomend them enough to anyone struggleing with an optic decision for an AK platform firearm.

 

Just REALLY good stuff

[Horse 39]

PK-AS is a great optic. You will love them.

[SergeK 15]

I just got a PK-01 and I love the thing.

[datrowl 111]

after some time with the optics, we decided the weaver mount on the quad of the underfolder sat too high to make it " natural" to shoot, so I fixed the issue by getting a Texas Weapons Systems dog leg... moved the weaver based PK-AS back to it which also lowered it almost a half inch and its officially now " perfect "

 

 

As far as the PK-AS goes, we love them, very quick on target if shooting close, and with the 1mil dot, its suitable for shooting out to 150 to 200 yards pretty easily... unlike some of the other optics we looked at where the larger dot would wash out or obscure the target at range...

 

These are perfect.... I honestly can't imagine a better optic for the AK, well, for our useage anyway....

[TX-Zen 287]

That's one of the main things I love about the PK-AS...the dot is much smaller that most and is excellent for small targets at longer ranges. Congrats!

[sickness 89]

Nevermind. Didn't read the whole thread.

Edited September 27, 2011 by sickness

[FAULTLINE 1]

I know the Op was not into magnification but I have a trijicon tr21 r with the triangle reticle on my slr 95 and I freaking love it. I paid a little over $500 NIB. On 1.25x it's not all that much slower than an RDS IMHO.

[atakacorp 147]

Love it , when Zombies attack , iron sight and more ammo. seriously though , any Russian scope X4 ,with out batterys

[YARP 300]

Red dot seems to work well enough. Personal favorite is a Trijicon RMR, battery operated ones (MS03,04,02) can be found under $500.00 and Tritium ones (no battery) are close to that price point.

[Mephis 82]

PK-AS in the standard side mount.

 

I don't think there's any way to have optics more "out of the way" or "optional" than that rig. Plus, being a prism 1x sight, it has a black reticle.

Mine has survived a lot without complaining a bit. Including the recoil of quite a few boxes of 3" magnums through the saiga 12. It's riding on my 308 now, since that's my favorite rifle and favorite optic.

[uthornsfan 2]

I just received my Millett DMS-1 and it looks to be pretty awesome so far. I havent gotten out to shoot it but heres a quick run down of specs.

 

1-4x 25mmObj 30mmTube Donut-Dot Fully Coated 3.5"