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The allure of Arsenal


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I may get dogged for this, and I'm ok with that, but I just don't get it. To me an AK is an AK is an AK. Sure there are differences cosmeically and mechanically but it pretty much sounds like someone's $500 build runs the same as a $800 Arsenal. Or maybe I'm wrong because I've only just got my feet wet in the AK world. Like I said, I'm ok with being the whipping boy, just throw some facts at me with the flogging!

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I may get dogged for this, and I'm ok with that, but I just don't get it. To me an AK is an AK is an AK. Sure there are differences cosmeically and mechanically but it pretty much sounds like someone's $500 build runs the same as a $800 Arsenal. Or maybe I'm wrong because I've only just got my feet wet in the AK world. Like I said, I'm ok with being the whipping boy, just throw some facts at me with the flogging!

 

Depends on the rifle. An Arsenal rifle will be superior to a WASR-10 almost every time. Some think it's worth a bunch of extra money, others do not. The best argument for an Arsenal rifle is having a factory-installed AK-100 style folder - getting this done after the fact is prohibitively expensive. A fixed-stock Arsenal rifle is still a $500 rifle in my book.

 

Arsenal sells quality rifles. They are very proud of this.

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depending on the skill level of the person doing the work and how well tooled up they are the 800 arsenal might not be as good as someones $500 conversion.

 

Your average end user with proper tools and equip could easily produce a product with better finish(paint), better ergonomics(user preference on furnature/safety mods), polished internals, profiled hammer, match crown... ect.

 

the arsenal is designed to take the work for those who don't want to or can't do it themselves.

 

It also serves as a good nitche for collectors and traditionalists.

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I just picked up my new sgl21 this morning, shooting later today. I have to say at first glance in the store I was like "meh". After taking it home to really molest it and do some cleaning/lubrication before I shoot it for the first time, I begain to see how the fit and finished was miles ahead of most AK's I have handled. The reciever is just beautiful in its finish and love the "missing" axis pin holes. The only issues are what seems to be a crappy trigger pull (haven't shot it yet so that may change) and a need of profiling/polishing the bolt and carrier. Action is smooth but not anywhere near my Paulys Steelin Icerack and Glassbolt of my S12.

 

I have all the expertise/skills and tools to do the conversion myself as I did on the S12. What I bought the Arsenal for was resale value being it came from a well known company. Money was never an issue.

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To me an AK is an AK is an AK.

 

That is the common misconception. The more AKs you handle, the more you will realize it.

 

My point there was there's nothing pretty about an AK, imo, and that they're desired for reliability and cheap ammo...and some nostalgia

 

 

I just picked up my new sgl21 this morning, shooting later today. I have to say at first glance in the store I was like "meh". After taking it home to really molest it and do some cleaning/lubrication before I shoot it for the first time, I begain to see how the fit and finished was miles ahead of most AK's I have handled. The reciever is just beautiful in its finish and love the "missing" axis pin holes. The only issues are what seems to be a crappy trigger pull (haven't shot it yet so that may change) and a need of profiling/polishing the bolt and carrier. Action is smooth but not anywhere near my Paulys Steelin Icerack and Glassbolt of my S12.

 

I have all the expertise/skills and tools to do the conversion myself as I did on the S12. What I bought the Arsenal for was resale value being it came from a well known company. Money was never an issue.

 

Hey if money was no issue wouldn't we be shooting a 6.8 gas piston AR at paper and a 50BMG at squirrels? Guess I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but come on, are we really supposed to use the word beautiful when talking about an AK? :lolol:

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The main draw of arsenals are milled receivers, folding trunnions, decent conversions, not having to the the work yourself and marketing/resale value. If you want a stamped "AK" with a fixed stock or ace hinge I would go another route.

 

To me an AK is an AK is an AK.

 

That is the common misconception. The more AKs you handle, the more you will realize it.

 

Sure, but an arsenal IS just a converted Saiga.

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depending on the skill level of the person doing the work and how well tooled up they are the 800 arsenal might not be as good as someones $500 conversion.

 

A $500 conversion must necessarily have less features than an $800 Arsenal.

$350 saiga base price(carolina shooter supply)

$19 gas tube to accept new furnature.(copes)

$24.99 complete unisued trigger guard(copes)

$20 bullet guide(if you don't want to make one out of a piece of pipe or flat steel)(CSS)

$7 grip nut and screw(CSS)

$6 or less for rivets(CSS)

$81.99 complete K-var stock set(Copes)

$10 for a basic muzle break(bird cage or slant)(CSS)

$29.69 G2 trigger group(CSS)

 

your out the door $548.67 befor even getting crazy shopping or changing off the norm of what the arsenal offers. Duracoat in your choice of finish after sandblasting and making sure its free of oils, or go even cheaper with a can of enamel. My 14L die has been used on 4 other guns now so I considered that good money a long time ago, along with the crowning tool. I have buffing wheels and grinders for the bikes.

 

someone doing more shopping than this or hitting the right deals at a gun show could do better.

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To me an AK is an AK is an AK.

 

That is the common misconception. The more AKs you handle, the more you will realize it.

 

My point there was there's nothing pretty about an AK, imo, and that they're desired for reliability and cheap ammo...and some nostalgia

I would disagree and I think you will find others that feel the same way.

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depending on the skill level of the person doing the work and how well tooled up they are the 800 arsenal might not be as good as someones $500 conversion.

 

A $500 conversion must necessarily have less features than an $800 Arsenal.

$350 saiga base price(carolina shooter supply)

$19 gas tube to accept new furnature.(copes)

$24.99 complete unisued trigger guard(copes)

$20 bullet guide(if you don't want to make one out of a piece of pipe or flat steel)(CSS)

$7 grip nut and screw(CSS)

$6 or less for rivets(CSS)

$81.99 complete K-var stock set(Copes)

$10 for a basic muzle break(bird cage or slant)(CSS)

$29.69 G2 trigger group(CSS)

 

your out the door $548.67 befor even getting crazy shopping or changing off the norm of what the arsenal offers.

 

You pretty much proved my point, especially since you didn't include lower handguard retainer ($50 as CSS), shipping or tax of parts, or the price of tools. You also still have unsightly holes in the receiver, and parts that are screwed instead of riveted to the gun. And you've still got a lot of work to do, which a person may or may not have the skill to do or do well.

 

I've done it both ways. In the case of the intermediate calibers, I will probably pick Arsenal from here on out.

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Doing an AK-103 build yourself would run you quite a bit: mil spec polymer furniture, proper zig-zag brake, 24" threaded FSB, 1000 meter sight leaf, AK gas tube, hand guard retainer, proper (riveted) trigger guard, plus the usual FCG and bullet guide job... that shit adds up quick. I always liked the more modern "black AKs" (they do look sexy to me), so an Asrenal SGL-21 was a no-brainer for me, especially at $500. :)

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You pretty much proved my point, especially since you didn't include lower handguard retainer ($50 as CSS), shipping or tax of parts, or the price of tools. You also still have unsightly holes in the receiver, and parts that are screwed instead of riveted to the gun. And you've still got a lot of work to do, which a person may or may not have the skill to do or do well.

 

I've done it both ways. In the case of the intermediate calibers, I will probably pick Arsenal from here on out.

thats a $15 part at apex.

 

and I don't believe I did prove your point. all that work is a one day affair in the garage with a few friends. the holes are taken care of with a welder, and I don't think I accounted for anything being screwed to the gun.

 

Remember my argument was not for just anyones $500 conversion being just as good. Mine was for a more expirienced person with the proper tools already available to them.

 

depending on the skill level of the person doing the work and how well tooled up they are the 800 arsenal might not be as good as someones $500 conversion.

 

right?

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My $0.02

 

AKs are AKs, any one of them, unless built with faulty parts will be durable enough to outlast any 5 men on the battlefield. The odds of you alone shooting one to death in your personal lifetime is ....slim.

 

That being said, a WASR is just as good as an Arsenal and VEPR if all your worried about is makeing it go bang every time you pull the trigger.

 

But....

 

When I bought my last truck, I spent extra for heated leather seats.... the cost difference between those and the cloth seats was about 2 grand. My ass dosen't care if it sits on cloth or leather, hell my ass dosen't care if the leather is heated or not... BUT its MY money, MY truck and MY AK and will be for a LONG time, and I want what I want just because I want it... I'm gonna own this truck for maby 15 years, I'll own my AKs the rest of my life, why not get the AK with leather seats? it won't drive any better, it won't use less gas... but I'll be happier when I sit in it and thats all that counts to me.

 

 

ya follow?

 

 

If your looking for a girl to spend the rest of your life with, and you have 2 choices... both cook and clean and screw like champs... but one has that extra little ...sizzle.... ya know what I mean? has that ass that was just MADE to wear those jeans.....

 

which is gonna be your friday night date choice?

 

kinda the same thing

 

hell its only money, you can't take it with ya, if you have a little spare, buy an AK, if ya have a little extra, buy the leather seats and grin everytime you handle it for the rest of your life.

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The main draw of arsenals are milled receivers, folding trunnions, decent conversions, not having to the the work yourself and marketing/resale value. If you want a stamped "AK" with a fixed stock or ace hinge I would go another route.

 

To me an AK is an AK is an AK.

 

That is the common misconception. The more AKs you handle, the more you will realize it.

 

Sure, but an arsenal IS just a converted Saiga.

 

And by the same theory any other AK is JUST an AK. But the build quality is much different.

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I resisted an Arsenal for a while just because I'm a cheapskate.

 

If you just want a shooter, then yes... a home-converted Saiga will shoot every bit as good as an SGL for hundreds less. A WASR is an even easier entry point into the AK world and still goes bang every time.

 

But if you want a true 100-series folding stock and correct front end, it is cheaper to get an Arsenal than to buy the parts separately. Even if you do the work yourself. This is why I finally broke down and bought one.

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And by the same theory any other AK is JUST an AK. But the build quality is much different.

 

If you are starting with the same gun they do, use simular parts AND do it correctly there is no difference in quality. Granted, it is more work than going to pick it up at the dealer already done. I'm not stating that most arsenal guns aren't great, I'm stating that they are not somehow magically better than a properly converted Saiga (because that's all they are).

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I may get dogged for this, and I'm ok with that, but I just don't get it. To me an AK is an AK is an AK. Sure there are differences cosmeically and mechanically but it pretty much sounds like someone's $500 build runs the same as a $800 Arsenal. Or maybe I'm wrong because I've only just got my feet wet in the AK world. Like I said, I'm ok with being the whipping boy, just throw some facts at me with the flogging!

 

I have a few saiga builds I personally spent my time doing and I own an Arsenal SGL. I know how much money and time is required to make one close enough to the other.

I wouldn't hesitate next time in buying another SGL.

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Ill tell you right now, for as much as I love my converted saiga, and for as familiar as I have become with it thru doing the conversion, for the money alone, I would have gotten a base model arsenal. Not for any other reason but the money. I didnt know what I wanted to do with it, so I tried a couple things, some worked and some didnt. I bought all kinds of tools just to work on it, let alone the parts that Ive used. I can surely say that I wouldve been able to get one with the money I have already spent. And it would take the ak handguard, have a bayo lug(not too important), have a cleaning rod (would be nice), and have a plunger pin and threaded fsb.

 

I cant say the money I spent was thrown to the wind though. Ive gained an intimacy with this rifle that Ive never had with any other gun. This is because Ive drilled, ground, sanded, cut and polished this rifle, and it still works flawlessly. I really dont think you can gain that type of 'relationship' with an arsenal, simply because all this stuff is done for you before you buy it.

 

Any arsenal is a great weapon, but Ill take the one I 'built'. Because I know it, inside and out.

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Doing an AK-103 build yourself would run you quite a bit: mil spec polymer furniture, proper zig-zag brake, 24" threaded FSB, 1000 meter sight leaf, AK gas tube, hand guard retainer, proper (riveted) trigger guard, plus the usual FCG and bullet guide job... that shit adds up quick. I always liked the more modern "black AKs" (they do look sexy to me), so an Asrenal SGL-21 was a no-brainer for me, especially at $500. :)

 

 

For me the big clincher is the AK-100 folder. Best place to get that is on a factory Arsenal rifle, no doubt. I like my 107FR, a lot. I also got it for around $500. If it had been in the $800-$1000 range, I wouldn't have been remotely interested. Even with the factory folder, I have difficult seeing a stamped receiver AK as anything more than about a $700 rifle, unless there is something truly special about it. I would love a 107UR some day as an SBR candidate - but it's very unlikely I'll find one in my comfort zone in terms of price.

 

There's no reason to bag on someone who isn't as much of a cheapskate as I am - plenty of people see value in Arsenal's conversion services. Arsenal does make very good rifles, and I enjoy mine.

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I just picked up my new sgl21 this morning, shooting later today... The only issues are what seems to be a crappy trigger pull (haven't shot it yet so that may change) and a need of profiling/polishing the bolt and carrier. Action is smooth but not anywhere near my Paulys Steelin Icerack and Glassbolt of my S12...

 

I don't particularly like the Arsenal trigger either, so I replaced it with a Tapco G2. I don't recommend "reprofiling/polishing the bolt and carrier". This is a carbine, not a shotgun. I highly doubt you'll have any problems with cycling.

 

If you want to reprofile and/or polish anything, work on the Arsenal trigger. ;)

Edited by post-apocalyptic
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And by the same theory any other AK is JUST an AK. But the build quality is much different.

 

If you are starting with the same gun they do, use simular parts AND do it correctly there is no difference in quality. Granted, it is more work than going to pick it up at the dealer already done. I'm not stating that most arsenal guns aren't great, I'm stating that they are not somehow magically better than a properly converted Saiga (because that's all they are).

 

 

That is not all they are.

 

If you can do all the work that Arsenal does to the rifles in your back yard by "just converting it" id love to know a price. Can i get on the list?

 

The basic saiga sporter conversion is a complete different world than the Arsenal SGL series.

Edited by Chevyman097
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