changes in new imports from legion.

[macaholic 5]

Was actually pretty amazed the one my friend brought over had no issues, after looking at the ports. Looking at the pattern I believe there may be a 4th port hidden totally on his.

 

 

You may be right about that fourth hole. I thought mine was a three port untill I looked inside the gas block with a mall sliver of an old broken mirror. About half the hole was covered buy the front edge of the access hole and boy was I PISSED! Anyway, sinse my last post, I removed the gas block without any problem, and opened up the access hole to 11/32. Now I can see all of the holes but the fourth one is still a little harder to see. However, I can fit a one 16' pin in each hole so I know they are all unobstructed. I did get to shoot this gun Wednsday evening and I experienced at least two FTE's out of 75 rounds of Remington 7 1/2 bird shot on the number 2 gas setting. I was hopeing for zero failures but that wasn't the case. The brass was ejecting about 3 to 6 feet like it should, so I think the gas is right but I'm a little concerned about the two FTE's I experienced. I plan to run another 100 rounds next Wednsday and see if this issue clears up. I hope I don't have another problematic Saiga-12 because I want to SBS this one to 16". It's always nice to start with a properly functioning gun rather than a problem child. Out of three Saiga-12's, I only have one that has never had any issues.

Edited September 16, 2011 by macaholic

[fletcher 0]

I just picked up my Saiga 12 this evening (ordered from CSS). Like dwnthehatch, mine is a H114 S/N, has the side rail, and has four ports. However, the port nearest to the end of the barrel looks like it may be partially obstructed by the gas block. It was open enough for me to get a piece of 1.69mm/0.063" wire into the port.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I just picked up my Saiga 12 this evening (ordered from CSS). Like dwnthehatch, mine is a H114 S/N, has the side rail, and has four ports. However, the port nearest to the end of the barrel looks like it may be partially obstructed by the gas block. It was open enough for me to get a piece of 1.69mm/0.063" wire into the port.

Welcome to S12.com!

 

Sounds great, welcome to the sickness.

If you could get that wire into the port, it likely isn't obstructed, just right at the edge and hard to see it entirely.

 

2011, side rail, four ports... Extended barrel hood & plastic or steel thread protector?

[tokinshitload 12]

I am curious what 2012 will bring for the Saiga 12. Hopefully these will be the form they come for a while. The barrel hood extension intrigues me. I have never had a 2.75" shell jam up there, but I could see how it could happen with low velocity rounds. I dont shoot that much of the cheap birdshot, and shoot mostly higher velocity slug or buckshot. Maybe I'm just lucky! Mine are 09 IZ109's.

xacex

[fletcher 0]

Welcome to S12.com!

 

Thanks - you can tell from my join date that I've been craving a Saiga 12 for years, and finally gave in

 

Unfortunately, the thread protector is plastic. The barrel hood appears to be extended (see pictures below).

 

 

[macaholic 5]

I just picked up my Saiga 12 this evening (ordered from CSS). Like dwnthehatch, mine is a H114 S/N, has the side rail, and has four ports. However, the port nearest to the end of the barrel looks like it may be partially obstructed by the gas block. It was open enough for me to get a piece of 1.69mm/0.063" wire into the port.

 

If you can get a .063 wire into that gas port your probably alright. I measured all of my ports at this measurement with a one 16' spring pin which I believe is the equivalent to .063. My gun is a 2011 with the extended barrel hood which is of no significants to me, all I'm concerned about is the amount fiddle-fucking around I'll most likely have to do to get it to run right.

Edited September 17, 2011 by macaholic

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Welcome to S12.com!

 

Thanks - you can tell from my join date that I've been craving a Saiga 12 for years, and finally gave in

 

Unfortunately, the thread protector is plastic. The barrel hood appears to be extended (see pictures below).

 

 

 

Those are some nice ports. That gun should run beautifully with minimal work, if not right out of the box.

[yooper14.5 84]

Has anybody else fired 3" yet? I really wish I had a

Extra 550 right now, but my next gun will be a AR anyway.

[macaholic 5]

I am curious what 2012 will bring for the Saiga 12. Hopefully these will be the form they come for a while. The barrel hood extension intrigues me. I have never had a 2.75" shell jam up there, but I could see how it could happen with low velocity rounds. I dont shoot that much of the cheap birdshot, and shoot mostly higher velocity slug or buckshot. Maybe I'm just lucky! Mine are 09 IZ109's.

xacex

 

 

I have an 09 and it's the only Saiga-12 I have that's never had any issues. I wish they could pull their heads out of their asses long enough to build all of them this way. It really burns my ass that I had to remove the gas block on a brand new 2011 gun to expose the gas ports after they supposedly corrected this gas port Bullshit. I don't mean to sound like an angry ass-crack, but I guess I expected better of the new run of Saiga-12's. Not to mention that I hand selected this gun out of several Saiga-12's at the show with those tacky new plastic thread protectors. Hell, I even passed up a brand new 09 production because it had the manufactures name removed from the right side of the reciever. I'd be willing to bet that one wouldn't have had any BULLSHIT gas port issues. Fuck Me!

Edited September 17, 2011 by macaholic

[Koljec 37]

Are there two different Legions to check for now, a factory Izhevsk mark and an import mark?

 

 

^^^ This one does not have Izhevsk on it. Is it marked anywhere with an up arrow with sideways Ms on either side of it? For example, on the right side of this photo:

Edited September 17, 2011 by Koljec

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I am curious what 2012 will bring for the Saiga 12. Hopefully these will be the form they come for a while. The barrel hood extension intrigues me. I have never had a 2.75" shell jam up there, but I could see how it could happen with low velocity rounds. I dont shoot that much of the cheap birdshot, and shoot mostly higher velocity slug or buckshot. Maybe I'm just lucky! Mine are 09 IZ109's.

xacex

 

 

I have an 09 and it's the only Saiga-12 I have that's never had any issues. I wish they could pull their heads out of their asses long enough to build all of them like this. It really burns my ass that I had to remove the gas block on a brand new 2011 gun to expose the gas ports after they supposedly corrected this gas port Bullshit. I don't mean to sound like an angry ass-crack, but I expected better on the new run of Saiga-12's. Not to mention that I hand selected this gun out of several Saiga-12's at the show with those tacky new plastic thread protectors. Hell, I even passed up a new 09 production because it had the manufactures name removed from the right side of the reciever. Fuck Me!

The Saiga 12 is not an AR or a Browning, etc... It's an imported, sporterized clone of a military shotgun, that has undergone change after change, after change, for the whole time it has been in production. There have even been lots of changes going on at the factory, with their tooling, MFG, and sales....who they will allow to import them here, and how much they cost. They are far from perfect and will most likely keep on evolving. They are a diamond in the rough IMO, and I actually enjoy the challenge of improving on them and making them run right, with features I prefer mine have. It's probably not the best gun for someone who doesn't enjoy tinkering with it to make it better, or gets pissed because it doesn't work with American low powered BS ammo, right out of the box.

 

Just sayin...

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Shoot the new guns a little bit before you judge them. Shit takes time to loosen up, not a lot but shoot it a little bit before you assume it is not 'a good one'.

[supertex 242]

Has anybody else fired 3" yet? I really wish I had a

Extra 550 right now, but my next gun will be a AR anyway.

 

 

a new s12 for $550? where? thanks

[yooper14.5 84]

Has anybody else fired 3" yet? I really wish I had a

Extra 550 right now, but my next gun will be a AR anyway.

 

 

a new s12 for $550? where? thanks

 

Thats what css has been carrying them for.

[dwnthehatch 14]

Are there two different Legions to check for now, a factory Izhevsk mark and an import mark?

 

 

^^^ This one does not have Izhevsk on it. Is it marked anywhere with an up arrow with sideways Ms on either side of it? For example, on the right side of this photo:

 

 

It's there. Just a little to the left.

 

 

I did get time to check and the barrel hood IS extended.

Edited September 17, 2011 by dwnthehatch

[RustNRoll 3]

Has anybody else fired 3" yet? I really wish I had a

Extra 550 right now, but my next gun will be a AR anyway.

 

 

I've fired quite a few 3" slugs out of a 6/30/11 manufacture S12 with no extras and had no issues. it was even el cheapo brand ammo. ive fired about 250 rounds of high brass, low brass, el cheapo, buck, slugs and target load and everything in between in both 3" and 2 3/4" and had absolutely no issues with cycling with any of it.

 

 

[BigShots 0]

I'm new to the forum and already know alot more than I did (which was basicly nothing about Saiga's). I'm very glad to be here and to be a part of the forum.

 

I've had my S-12 for a few+ weeks now and it looks like I'm one of the fortunate one's to have a "vodka special" concerning the ports. Wish I had known what to look for when I got the call from my gun shop and went to pick it up. He got in (3) from Century Arms when they were "so hard to find" so pretty excited to get in on one. For all I know, they could have all been VS's but it would have been nice to have known to at least look. Nonetheless, even if they were in fact all the same, I guess I would have taken it anyway. I devised a small mirror like another member above did (thanks for the idea) and verified that I do in fact have only the 2 ports. Unlike some others who thought they had 2 but were pleasantly surprised to find 1 or 2 more that were hidden. Guess they would need work done as well though. Btw, what's the percentage's of new ones sold that have more than just 2? At any rate, below are the pics of mine . . .

 

 

 

Anyway, I understand from reading some posts that 4 (smaller) ports are actually better than 3 (larger) ports. My question is, logicaly, I need to determine the size of my existing ports in deciding which way to go, since the 2 existing ports may already be larger than the smaller ports for a 4 port config. Correct? Then I go from there to find the best person/shop who's familiar with Saiga's and has experience in correcting this. Thanks

[gpqueen 545]

If your gun has a 24" barrel than that is correct. They only come with 2.

If it is a 19" barrel I would shoot it with different ammo before tearing it apart.

[yooper14.5 84]

Has anybody else fired 3" yet? I really wish I had a

Extra 550 right now, but my next gun will be a AR anyway.

 

 

I've fired quite a few 3" slugs out of a 6/30/11 manufacture S12 with no extras and had no issues. it was even el cheapo brand ammo. ive fired about 250 rounds of high brass, low brass, el cheapo, buck, slugs and target load and everything in between in both 3" and 2 3/4" and had absolutely no issues with cycling with any of it.

 

your gun has the extended barrel hood right? if so, then thats good to hear, as the last one tested with 3" had a 8% fte rate.

[BigShots 0]

If your gun has a 24" barrel than that is correct. They only come with 2.

If it is a 19" barrel I would shoot it with different ammo before tearing it apart.

Thanks and I read that in my searching also. Mine is a 19" ( I even doubled checked the box, etc.). I guess that's the smart thing to do to see what or if they're any issues. I certainly don't want to go to any trouble if I don't have to). Also, I (Savannah) do have your CSS puck, MD 5-position gas plug, and Poly-Choke 2 Breacher. I got those before I knew about the gas ports and the possible probem's. Doggone knowledge! Btw, the 12 round ProMag came today.

Edited September 17, 2011 by In-Guage

[macaholic 5]

I'm new to the forum and already know alot more than I did (which was basicly nothing about Saiga's). I'm very glad to be here and to be a part of the forum.

 

I've had my S-12 for a few+ weeks now and it looks like I'm one of the fortunate one's to have a "vodka special" concerning the ports. Wish I had known what to look for when I got the call from my gun shop and went to pick it up. He got in (3) from Century Arms when they were "so hard to find" so pretty excited to get in on one. For all I know, they could have all been VS's but it would have been nice to have known to at least look. Nonetheless, even if they were in fact all the same, I guess I would have taken it anyway. I devised a small mirror like another member above did (thanks for the idea) and verified that I do in fact have only the 2 ports. Unlike some others who thought they had 2 but were pleasantly surprised to find 1 or 2 more that were hidden. Guess they would need work done as well though. Btw, what's the percentage's of new ones sold that have more than just 2? At any rate, below are the pics of mine . . .

 

 

 

Anyway, I understand from reading some posts that 4 (smaller) ports are actually better than 3 (larger) ports. My question is, logicaly, I need to determine the size of my existing ports in deciding which way to go, since the 2 existing ports may already be larger than the smaller ports for a 4 port config. Correct? Then I go from there to find the best person/shop who's familiar with Saiga's and has experience in correcting this. Thanks

Hey brother, I feel your pain. What I've learned in the twentyfour+years I've been in the firearms biz, is that you can cover all your bases and still get a lemon. As mentioned in my previous post, I hand selected this new Saiga-12 out of several others at the show and I even inspected the gas ports as well. There were three visible port holes when I looked inside the gas block so I figured It was a three port gun. Okay, so I bought the gun. Once I got it home and made a closer inspection, I noticed a fourth hole partially covered by the gas block. Oh well, I guess we can expect more of this gas block bullshit from this new batch of Saiga-12's. So I called the number on the instruction manule and they said that they were doing the warrantee on these guns. Oh Goody! Just what the consumer wants to look forward to when he buys a new product. I guess you can try the gun out and hopefully it will run right, providing the port holes are the proper size and everything else is in mechanical harmony. On my gun, I didn't even consider warrantee and imediately removed the gas block to open up the access hole. When I did test fire the gun, I got at least two FTE's out of 75 rounds of 7 1/2 birdshot. To some people this would be acceptable, but I'm of the opinion that a gun like any other product, should run right from the get go without any fiddle-fucking. I guess the thing that really burns my ass is that this problem was supposed to have been corrected, now here we go again! Furthermore, these guns are Kalashnikovs, and AK's are known for their legendary reliability. I guess the best thing to do is shoot the damned thing and hope for the best. I do have one Saiga-12 that I've had absolutely no problems with, so I know they can get them right when the want to. Give it a go and see what happens. God willing you'll have gotten one that works.

Edited September 19, 2011 by macaholic

[BigShots 0]

Thanks macaholic for your reply. I really appreciate your taking the time to post your experience. When I bought mine, I had no idea that there were issues such as this. And still, I would have bought one also, even if one or two were partially closed. I simply wouldn't have known. All I knew for the week of hearing about them and calling around was that Saiga-12's were baad, they're getting ready to be stopped at the border, and the prices were climbing fast so I better hurry and get one while I could. And once I heard all of that and saw some YouTube's of the damage that they could inflict, I was hooked. Like I said before, might not of made a bit of difference but I would have liked to look in all three to see if one was a little better. Just wonder if my gun guy knew, didn't know, are felt that it's no big deal to him/them about the port issues. Guess working in a gun shop with an on-premise smith makes some issues moot to some, knowing that they can get them corrected pretty quickly and at little to no charge to boot. Anyway, I won't know on mine until I shoot it so I need to get a mix of different shells and go from there. Hopefully, the MD gas plug and the CSS "performance puc" that I bought will help if there is a problem??? I'll give it a go. Thanks again.

 

Hey brother, I feel your pain. What I've learned in the twentyfour+years I've been in the firearms biz, is that you can cover all your bases and still get a lemon. As mentioned in my previous post, I hand selected this new Saiga-12 out of several others at the show and I even inspected the gas ports as well. There were three visible port holes when I looked inside the gas block so I figured It was a three port gun. Okay, so I bought the gun. Once I got it home and made a closer inspection, I noticed a fourth hole partially covered by the gas block. Anyway, I guess we can expect more of this gas block bullshit from this new batch of Saiga-12's just like the previous ones. I did call the number on the manuel and they said that they were doing the warrantee on these guns. Oh Goody! Just what the consumer wants to look forward to when he buys a new product. I guess you can try the gun out and hopefully it will run right, providing the port holes are the proper size and everything else is in mechanical harmony. On my gun, I didn't even consider warrantee and imediately removed the gas block to open up the access hole. When I did test fire the gun, I got at least two FTE's out of 75 rounds of 7 1/2 birdshot. To some people this would be acceptable, but I'm of the opinion that a gun like any other product, should run right from the get go without any fiddle-fucking. I guess the thing that really burns my ass is that this problem was supposed to have been corrected, now here we go again! Furthermore, these guns are Kalashnikovs and are known for their legendary reliability. I guess the best thing to do is shoot the damned thing and hope for the best. I do have one Saiga-12 that ran right from day one and required ZERO monkeying around, so I know they can get them right when the want to. Give it a go and see what happens

[macaholic 5]

Thanks macaholic for your reply. I really appreciate your taking the time to post your experience. When I bought mine, I had no idea that there were issues such as this. And still, I would have bought one also, even if one or two were partially closed. I simply wouldn't have known. All I knew for the week of hearing about them and calling around was that Saiga-12's were baad, they're getting ready to be stopped at the border, and the prices were climbing fast so I better hurry and get one while I could. And once I heard all of that and saw some YouTube's of the damage that they could inflict, I was hooked. Like I said before, might not of made a bit of difference but I would have liked to look in all three to see if one was a little better. Just wonder if my gun guy knew, didn't know, are felt that it's no big deal to him/them about the port issues. Guess working in a gun shop with an on-premise smith makes some issues moot to some, knowing that they can get them corrected pretty quickly and at little to no charge to boot. Anyway, I won't know on mine until I shoot it so I need to get a mix of different shells and go from there. Hopefully, the MD gas plug and the CSS "performance puc" that I bought will help if there is a problem??? I'll give it a go. Thanks again.

 

Hey brother, I feel your pain. What I've learned in the twentyfour+years I've been in the firearms biz, is that you can cover all your bases and still get a lemon. As mentioned in my previous post, I hand selected this new Saiga-12 out of several others at the show and I even inspected the gas ports as well. There were three visible port holes when I looked inside the gas block so I figured It was a three port gun. Okay, so I bought the gun. Once I got it home and made a closer inspection, I noticed a fourth hole partially covered by the gas block. Anyway, I guess we can expect more of this gas block bullshit from this new batch of Saiga-12's just like the previous ones. I did call the number on the manuel and they said that they were doing the warrantee on these guns. Oh Goody! Just what the consumer wants to look forward to when he buys a new product. I guess you can try the gun out and hopefully it will run right, providing the port holes are the proper size and everything else is in mechanical harmony. On my gun, I didn't even consider warrantee and imediately removed the gas block to open up the access hole. When I did test fire the gun, I got at least two FTE's out of 75 rounds of 7 1/2 birdshot. To some people this would be acceptable, but I'm of the opinion that a gun like any other product, should run right from the get go without any fiddle-fucking. I guess the thing that really burns my ass is that this problem was supposed to have been corrected, now here we go again! Furthermore, these guns are Kalashnikovs and are known for their legendary reliability. I guess the best thing to do is shoot the damned thing and hope for the best. I do have one Saiga-12 that ran right from day one and required ZERO monkeying around, so I know they can get them right when the want to. Give it a go and see what happens

 

I'm going to run some more rounds through my gun this week to see if I get any more FTE's. Hopefully, this issue will clear up and I can move forward. It's probably better to run the gun in stock form to see what it's going to do before adding after market parts. In other words, you may not want to start fixing what's not broke, because the gun just may work right from the start.Give it a chance and see, hopefully it will be one they got right,

Edited September 19, 2011 by macaholic

[Raiden 1]

I've got a 2011 Legion gun with 4 ports, plastic thread protector/muzzle nut, 11 in the SN# and 11 on the side of the receiver.

 

250 rounds in I've got peening on my rear Trunion, and carrier.

 

Been running it on 1 with high brass bird shot, took it out today and ran it on two with Wally world special #8.

 

I don't recall seeing the peening before today, so I'm guessing I've got an over gassed shotgun.

 

I'd rather have two ports, and be forced to run hot loads than have 4 and a gun that beats it's self to death.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Good luck.

[Raiden 1]

Good luck.

 

That bad?

 

So what am I do to to alleviate this condition? MD arms gas plug?

Edited September 19, 2011 by Raiden

[gpqueen 545]

Good luck.

 

That bad?

 

So what am I do to to alleviate this condition? MD arms gas plug?

Yes you can adjust it to allow less gas with it.

[macaholic 5]

I've got a 2011 Legion gun with 4 ports, plastic thread protector/muzzle nut, 11 in the SN# and 11 on the side of the receiver.

 

250 rounds in I've got peening on my rear Trunion, and carrier.

 

Been running it on 1 with high brass bird shot, took it out today and ran it on two with Wally world special #8.

 

I don't recall seeing the peening before today, so I'm guessing I've got an over gassed shotgun.

 

I'd rather have two ports, and be forced to run hot loads than have 4 and a gun that beats it's self to death.

 

 

How bad is the contact with the trunion? Is it actually causing deformation, because the two Saiga-12's I have in addition to this one, make contact to the point that there is a surface print, but does not cause any dammage to the trunion itself. Also, one of these guns was SBS's to 16' and is overgassed to the point that it runs low brass on #1 and clogs itself up with a plastick shit biscuit in as little as 150 rounds. So far, all I've seen is where the print has gone through the paint but there is no damage. I plan to send this gun back for a new barrel, but even though it's as badly over gassed as it is, I still can't see any actual dammage to the trunion.

Edited September 19, 2011 by macaholic

[supertex 242]

Good luck.

 

That bad?

 

So what am I do to to alleviate this condition? MD arms gas plug?

 

 

i would also add a buffer

[Raiden 1]

I've got a 2011 Legion gun with 4 ports, plastic thread protector/muzzle nut, 11 in the SN# and 11 on the side of the receiver.

 

250 rounds in I've got peening on my rear Trunion, and carrier.

 

Been running it on 1 with high brass bird shot, took it out today and ran it on two with Wally world special #8.

 

I don't recall seeing the peening before today, so I'm guessing I've got an over gassed shotgun.

 

I'd rather have two ports, and be forced to run hot loads than have 4 and a gun that beats it's self to death.

 

 

How bad is the contact with the trunion? Is it actually causing deformation, because the two Saiga-12's I have in addition to this one, make contact to the point that there is a surface print, but does not cause any dammage to the trunion itself. Also, one of these guns was SBS's to 16' and is overgassed to the point that it runs low brass on #1 and clogs itself up with a plastick shit biscuit in as little as 150 rounds. So far, all I've seen is where the print has gone through the paint but there is no damage. I plan to send this gun back for a new barrel, but even though it's as badly over gassed as it is, I still can't see any actual dammage to the trunion.

 

Yes, on mine the bottom of the bolt carrier is impacting the rear turnnion with enough force to peen both surfaces.

 

Whether this is a fit issue of where the factory installed the rear turnion or an over gassed shotgun remains to be seen.

 

I was going to mention the buffer, but you see so much negative feedback from "pros" that it just isn't worth the hassle or argument.

 

I will be installing one.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Raiden