NY Legal

[Warwulf 0]

Hello everyone, new here.

 

As you're probably already aware, NY fire arm laws are a little vague and hard to follow. I recently bought a Saiga 12 gauge. I would ideally like to have a pistol grip or thumbhole grip. For NYS purposes, is a thumbhole grip (either one similar to the Saiganov or one like the MAK-90) considered the same thing as a pistol grip and hence "evil"?

 

Second of all, if you don't have a magazine greater than 5 rounds, does it even matter if you have a pistol grip? I know that semi-autos that "cannot accept a magazine greater than 5 rounds" is exempt from AWB. Would this apply if I never possess a magazine greater than the 5 round detachable magazine?

 

Worst case scenario, could I use a "bullet button" like they do in CA to skirt the detachable magazine feature?

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Hello everyone, new here.

 

As you're probably already aware, NY fire arm laws are a little vague and hard to follow. I recently bought a Saiga 12 gauge. I would ideally like to have a pistol grip or thumbhole grip. For NYS purposes, is a thumbhole grip (either one similar to the Saiganov or one like the MAK-90) considered the same thing as a pistol grip and hence "evil"? No. Thumbholes are good to go on S12's in NY.

 

Second of all, if you don't have a magazine greater than 5 rounds, does it even matter if you have a pistol grip? I know that semi-autos that "cannot accept a magazine greater than 5 rounds" is exempt from AWB. Would this apply if I never possess a magazine greater than the 5 round detachable magazine? Regarding 5 round mags, the ban text states "A fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds" as an evil feature. Your Saiga doesn't have a fixed mag, so this is a moot point. The other wording in the text about mags says "The ability to accept a detachable magazine" is an evil feature. In other words, you can use up to 10 round mags in your S12, but even if you only plan on using/possessing 5 round mags, you still can't have a pistol grip.

 

Worst case scenario, could I use a "bullet button" like they do in CA to skirt the detachable magazine feature? CA law specifically states the "bullet button" is legit and is considered a "fixed mag". NY law doesn't say this. I wouldn't personally test the waters on that one. When NY considers things "permanent" or "fixed", they pretty much mean exactly that. Being able to remove the mag with a small tool is hardly "fixed" or "permanent", given how NY would most likely look at it.

 

 

My advice is to just get yourself a nice thumbhole stock, convert your S12 and get some 10 round mags. All legal, and no hassle.

 

 

-Former New Yorker

[Warwulf 0]

Thanks, Shooter.

 

The specific verbage I was looking at was:

 

Assault Weapons do not include: A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

 

Also, would the Saiganov type thumbhole stock still be considered a thumbhole? Or is that stretching it? Maybe something more like the Norinco MAK-90?

[YOT 3,743]

There is so much about NY laws already, so I'll only say this........

 

If a magazine holds 5 rounds, that makes the gun capable of holding 6 rounds.

 

Shooter is right. Thumbhole stock and be done with it. Your factory 5 round does nothing to help with 922r compliance, either, once you start changing other parts.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

[nycGUNguy 61]

I have an S-12 that I recently found a suitable MAK-90 wooden stock that I refinished to match my BRG3 foregarm. I also modified a Dragonuv stock for my S-20. I am quite happy with both...

 

 

 

Props to BRG3, Cobra, Dinzag, MDArms, Tromix and many others for the various stages of research and development over the years.

 

nyclu3

[Warwulf 0]

Nice, nyclu3...

 

Those are some real nice looking stocks. Where'd you manage to find them? Did you have to do any cutting or sanding to get it to fit?

 

I think I'll just go with a thumbhole stock and be done with it as suggested. I just want to make sure that no one confuses the thumbhole for a pistol grip... would prefer not to stretch the definition of "thumbhole".

 

Let me know if you can!

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I have an S-12 that I recently found a suitable MAK-90 wooden stock that I refinished to match my BRG3 foregarm. I also modified a Dragonuv stock for my S-20. I am quite happy with both...

 

 

 

Props to BRG3, Cobra, Dinzag, MDArms, Tromix and many others for the various stages of research and development over the years.

 

nyclu3

 

DAMN that S12 is sexy.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I hate to toss a monkey wrench into your works... But if I am not mistaken , the verbiage in the law states a "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the receiver"...

 

A thumbhole on a CONVERTED S12 does just that. It is BELOW THE RECEIVER. However a NONCONVERTED S-12 with an Izhmash FACTORY THUMBHOLE will be located BEHIND, and not below the receiver. This is the same configuration you will see on all the other models like Remington, etc... with thumbhole stocks.

 

SO... figure all that out and interpret it as you will... On MY S12's... BOTH have the FACTORY Izhmash "dragunov style" stocks on them. But thats just my preference.

 

[YOT 3,743]

I hate to toss a monkey wrench into your works... But if I am not mistaken , the verbiage in the law states a "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the receiver"...

 

A thumbhole on a CONVERTED S12 does just that. It is BELOW THE RECEIVER. However a NONCONVERTED S-12 with an Izhmash FACTORY THUMBHOLE will be located BEHIND, and not below the receiver. This is the same configuration you will see on all the other models like Remington, etc... with thumbhole stocks.

 

SO... figure all that out and interpret it as you will... On MY S12's... BOTH have the FACTORY Izhmash "dragunov style" stocks on them. But thats just my preference.

 

 

This is the precise reason I created my own thumbhole stock with a traditional English sweep grip. I think I accomplished what I set out to do. I can assure you it's a natural, comfortable grip and gives the benefits of the G2 trigger.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Yeoldetool

[nycGUNguy 61]

I hate to toss a monkey wrench into your works... But if I am not mistaken , the verbiage in the law states a "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the receiver"...

 

A thumbhole on a CONVERTED S12 does just that. It is BELOW THE RECEIVER. However a NONCONVERTED S-12 with an Izhmash FACTORY THUMBHOLE will be located BEHIND, and not below the receiver. This is the same configuration you will see on all the other models like Remington, etc... with thumbhole stocks.

 

SO... figure all that out and interpret it as you will... On MY S12's... BOTH have the FACTORY Izhmash "dragunov style" stocks on them. But thats just my preference.

 

 

This is the precise reason I created my own thumbhole stock with a traditional English sweep grip. I think I accomplished what I set out to do. I can assure you it's a natural, comfortable grip and gives the benefits of the G2 trigger.

 

 

I thought I was done playing with my Saiga shotguns but I really like the looks of your stock! The only bad thing is that I'm not much of a woodworker. I guess you're never really done with these things!

 

nyclu3

[sickness 89]

[

Since an S12 has "the ability to accept a detachable magazine", that's the only evil feature you're allowed. There's not really any skirting it. As far as your stock choices, either would be fine. I was partial to the Bulgarian thumbhole myself, thanks to NailBomb, but I know they're hard to come by nowadays.

 

Yes, you CAN skirt the detachable mag issue - potentially, under NY law just as you could under the Federal ban:

 

Read the penal code definitions for AW carefully:

 

Definition A defines the criteria for rifles. B is for shotguns. C is for pistols. D is a list of evil guns by make/model.

 

This is where most folks stop reading.

 

But definition E is where the interesting stuff happens. It is a list of exceptions to the foregoing (A - D) definitions.

 

E.i exempts manually operated guns.

E.ii exempts rifles with a detachable magazine that cannot hold more than 5 rounds (the MAG, not the gun)

E.iii exempts shotguns that cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a fixed or detachable magazine.

E.iv exempts replicas of the guns defined in D manufactured prior to Oct. '94.

E.v exempts any semi-auto from being classified as an AW if possessed prior to Sep. '94.

 

V is the "grandfathered" clause we all came to love so much.

 

Exception 3 is the interesting one for our purposes here. The MKA-1919 should be NY legal because, despite the detachable mag and pistol grip, it only has 5 round mags available. The 5 rd mags trip exception 3, making any evil features from up in definition B irrelevant.

 

What is not clear is what happens when someone makes a 10rd mag for it. The law doesn't state possession of high-cap mags here.. the exemption is for a weapon that cannot hold more than 5 rounds. The S12 CAN hold more than 5 rounds with appropriate mags. Some day, the MKA1919 will too.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I hate to toss a monkey wrench into your works... But if I am not mistaken , the verbiage in the law states a "Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the receiver"...

 

A thumbhole on a CONVERTED S12 does just that. It is BELOW THE RECEIVER. However a NONCONVERTED S-12 with an Izhmash FACTORY THUMBHOLE will be located BEHIND, and not below the receiver. This is the same configuration you will see on all the other models like Remington, etc... with thumbhole stocks.

 

SO... figure all that out and interpret it as you will... On MY S12's... BOTH have the FACTORY Izhmash "dragunov style" stocks on them. But thats just my preference.

 

 

The red text above sums it up; you have to interpret it for yourself, I guess. Personally, I was never worried with the Bulgarian stock I used on my S12 when I was in NY. To me, a "pistol grip" is a stand alone grip.

 

Even though I don't have to deal with the ridiculous laws there anymore, I still wish they'd make the rules in black-n-white, just for the sake of clarity. That's the one thing I envied (not really the right word, but anyway....) about Cali's gun laws as a New Yorker; they spelled things out clearly on what you can and cannot have. There's not really any grey areas.

 

[

Since an S12 has "the ability to accept a detachable magazine", that's the only evil feature you're allowed. There's not really any skirting it. As far as your stock choices, either would be fine. I was partial to the Bulgarian thumbhole myself, thanks to NailBomb, but I know they're hard to come by nowadays.

 

Yes, you CAN skirt the detachable mag issue - potentially, under NY law just as you could under the Federal ban:

 

Read the penal code definitions for AW carefully:

 

Definition A defines the criteria for rifles. B is for shotguns. C is for pistols. D is a list of evil guns by make/model.

 

This is where most folks stop reading.

 

But definition E is where the interesting stuff happens. It is a list of exceptions to the foregoing (A - D) definitions.

 

E.i exempts manually operated guns.

E.ii exempts rifles with a detachable magazine that cannot hold more than 5 rounds (the MAG, not the gun)

E.iii exempts shotguns that cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a fixed or detachable magazine.

E.iv exempts replicas of the guns defined in D manufactured prior to Oct. '94.

E.v exempts any semi-auto from being classified as an AW if possessed prior to Sep. '94.

 

V is the "grandfathered" clause we all came to love so much.

 

Exception 3 is the interesting one for our purposes here. The MKA-1919 should be NY legal because, despite the detachable mag and pistol grip, it only has 5 round mags available. The 5 rd mags trip exception 3, making any evil features from up in definition B irrelevant.

 

What is not clear is what happens when someone makes a 10rd mag for it. The law doesn't state possession of high-cap mags here.. the exemption is for a weapon that cannot hold more than 5 rounds. The S12 CAN hold more than 5 rounds with appropriate mags. Some day, the MKA1919 will too.

 

That exemption is kind of irrelevant to the S12. The S12 can hold more than 5 rounds in a fixed or detachable magazine, so.......?

 

As for the MKA1919, 10+ round mags are pretty much guaranteed for that gun, which would make that exception moot at that point.

 

 

 

BTW, is this NY AWB text you're using, or text from the old federal ban? I don't recall seeing these specific exemptions in NY's text.

[YOT 3,743]

BTW, is this NY AWB text you're using, or text from the old federal ban? I don't recall seeing these specific exemptions in NY's text.

 

The wording is in the NY AWB......... http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

 

"Assault weapons does not include:

• any rifle, shotgun or pistol that: is manually operated by

bolt, pump, lever or slide action; or has been rendered

permanently inoperable; or

• An antique firearm as defined under federal law

• A semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable

magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;

• A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five

rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;

• A rifle, shotgun or pistol, or a replica or a duplicate thereof, specifically exempted from the federal assault weapon

ban list as such weapon was manufactured on October 1,

1993"

 

This is read as: Provided your semi-auto shotgun meets all other restrictions, as long as you don't have a detachable (or fixed) magazine capable of holding more than five rounds, it is not an AW. It says nothing about the total capacity of the gun being five rounds (one in the chamber), only the magazine..... "A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine."

 

 

ETA: This is not an interpretation. It's the way it is worded!

Edited September 21, 2011 by Yeoldetool

[22_Shooter 1,560]

[Nailbomb 10,221]

[YOT 3,743]

I'm looking at the exact link to the law. Your Mis Quoting..

 

its written as...

• A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following

characteristics:

• a folding or telescoping stock;

• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action

of the weapon;

• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;

• an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

5 rounds fixed is a evil feature

Detachable mag is another evil feature.

 

By the way you have it quoted a 10 round mag would be illigal to own for a S-12. That is not the case.

 

Nailbomb, You need to read farther. I did not mis-quote, I copy and pasted so it couldn't be a mis-quote. Nor did I say it would be illegal to own a ten round mag for an S12. Again read farther into where it says......

 

“Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means

a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device,

manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a

capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted

to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition. There

is an exception for an attached tubular device designed

to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber

rimfire ammunition."

 

..... Then reread the first paragraph of the "Assault Weapons" section.

 

 

"• A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five

rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;" .......is how we legally obtain an S12 in NY, and until we start changing parts it is 922r compliant.

 

I'm not a lawyer. I read the law. That section tells you exactly what an "Assault Weapon" is, AND what is NOT included as an "Assault Weapon." That is exactly what I quoted. In other words a stock S12 with a 5 round mag is NOT an AW, and neither is a modified S12 "with the ability to accept a detachable" (the built-in evil feature) 10 round mag as long as it does not exceed any of the other criteria which would make it become an AW.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Yeoldetool

[YOT 3,743]

By the way..... did I tell you NY laws suck ass?!?!

 

You already know that.

[nycGUNguy 61]

I have an S-12 that I recently found a suitable MAK-90 wooden stock that I refinished to match my BRG3 foregarm. I also modified a Dragonuv stock for my S-20. I am quite happy with both...

 

 

 

Props to BRG3, Cobra, Dinzag, MDArms, Tromix and many others for the various stages of research and development over the years.

 

nyclu3

 

DAMN that S12 is sexy.

 

 

Thanks Mr. Shooter. By the way, I have been searching far and wide for that Bulgarian stock that you have but to no avail so these were my only options.

 

nyclu3

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I have an S-12 that I recently found a suitable MAK-90 wooden stock that I refinished to match my BRG3 foregarm. I also modified a Dragonuv stock for my S-20. I am quite happy with both...

 

 

 

Props to BRG3, Cobra, Dinzag, MDArms, Tromix and many others for the various stages of research and development over the years.

 

nyclu3

 

DAMN that S12 is sexy.

 

 

Thanks Mr. Shooter. By the way, I have been searching far and wide for that Bulgarian stock that you have but to no avail so these were my only options.

 

nyclu3

 

Yeah, I loved that stock. I donated it to another NY'er when I moved down here. Funny how when I got it, it was only $20. Now that it's so rare, we had a guy trying to sell the same stock here in the WTS section for like $150!! People are funny.

 

Anyway, if you or someone you know is in the market for another AK......Centerfire Systems carries the Bulgarian AK that comes with this beloved stock. I think it's $369 or so. Would work out great if you or someone else already wanted another AK, and you could just swap stocks off of it.