Azkamidaka 26 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Yeah, you would have to start off with a virgin receiver that never had a butt stock installed ever. Can you believe these dumb ass convoluted firearms laws? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Doesn't really matter if we can believe them or not, or even like them or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
telero 4 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Bottom line is making an S12 pistol grip only is a no-no. Unless you want to pay the tax. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jetter 0 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 What is the minimum length a butt stock has to be? Could it be cut down to be really small? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
telero 4 Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 You still need to maintain the 26" overall length. I don't know if there is a legal definition for the stock, but I would imagine it would need to have vertical component so that you could argue it would be able to be shouldered. A minimalist folding stock might work if you just left if folded...? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 It's perfectly legal to make a pistol grip only Saiga 12. As long as the overall length is 26" or greater and the barrel length is 18" or greater. There is no law that says you cannot convert a Title 1 Shotgun or Rifle into a Title 1 Firearm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
telero 4 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 There is no law that says you cannot convert a Title 1 Shotgun or Rifle into a Title 1 Firearm. Interesting point. It appears that a 19" barrel Saiga 12 is just a little over 28" from the end of the barrel to the rear of the receiver (with the stock tab cut off). I hadn't really thought about how it would be essentially remade from a shotgun to an other firearm. I have read a little bit in the past about ARs being converted from rifle to pistol format and back to rifles. From what I understand in those cases is that it's better to start with a pistol configuration rather than start with a rifle. Some little ATF rules about how the order counts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JoshAston 39 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Yes ATF has ruled that pistols can be converted to rifles and then back again. But in this case a stockless Saiga with a 18+" barrel is not a pistol. It's just a Title 1 Firearm. Once you go shorter than 26" or 18" barrel, then it needs to be registered as an SBS or AOW if you're starting with a virgin receiver that's never had a stock attached. As long as it does not meet the definition of any Title 2 weapons you can do whatever you want to it. Edited August 10, 2012 by JoshAston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saltydecimator 482 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 virgin receiver is the barrel trunnion btw.... these are the 2 ways to go aboot it, as far as i know. 1 make a new trunion, decided on barrel length, then make what ever pistol grip design you want, that keeps the total weapon length over 26" and barrell ength matters not, as long as oal is maintained. thats where the PGO definition comes into play. 2 leave barrel length alone. remove stock. shipped from factory with it, so then barrel length matters. then the gun is just basically a much cooler mossberg cruiser, or like any other 18' Pump that you put a PG on... if ya wanted to go route 1, you porb need an atf letter because that letter only applies to mossy 500. thats what that spec letter says anyways. so remmys and 590 etc would all have to be individually lettered (send sample in, hope ya get it back)(ffl sot 07/02 recommended) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 Sweet Jebus, I'm the most gun-saavy person I know and I can just barely make heads or tails of all this crap. I feel really sorry for folks who don't know anything about gun laws. Can you imagine how confusing all this crap would be to a layman? It would completely discourage you from even wanting to fool with the applicable weapons which, I suppose, is the entire point. Legislation via confusion? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Matthew Hopkins 1,065 Posted August 10, 2012 Report Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) Sweet Jebus, I'm the most gun-saavy person I know and I can just barely make heads or tails of all this crap. that's because there are too many "forum lawyers" throwing in their bits and pieces to make it even more confusing. as long as 2 criterias are met, barrel length 18" + AND OAL 26"+ put a pistol grip on it, you are out of the realm of NFA weapon. . still makes zero sense why you want to shoot a shotgun without a stock, you will find out real soon it sucks. I just came back from the range, folding my stock and shot it, and it really, really sucks. Edited August 10, 2012 by Matthew Hopkins Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Shooting PGO isn't that bad with my gun I actually prefer it, it hurts less than using a stock which usually leaves me bruised. I guess it's how I have built my gun maybe. 3" mags are a different story though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jetter 0 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 romad7: What type of stock do you have? Must be a folder type if you are shooting PGO a lot. What side does it fold on? Does it work good for you shooting it when folded and have you shot it it folded with a drum mag like the MD-20? I also like to shoot with PGO which is why I want to make some type of quick detach stock option so the folded stock is not in my way when using a MD-20 drum, the folded stock always seems to hit the drum when folded and won;t lock down. Has anyone used a left side folding adjustable length stock that will clear a MD-20 drum if it is extended when folded? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acutedeath 2 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 This is what I use: http://bossetech.com/ It lets you fold around the drum. It locks up "tightly" but can still be straightened by hand when it's in the rotated position, without needing to push the button again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jetter 0 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Thanks, That looks interesting, but the images are not real clear on their website so it's kind of hard to see it up close clearly. How does it lockup tight in the folded and twisted position? What holds it in that position? Anyone else use this and what is you opinion on it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acutedeath 2 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 I can maybe provide pictures of my setup later today. The adapter feels like it's under spring/detent pressure when twisted. It either position, it stays in place without wiggle (unlike the ace push-button folder I have it bolted to). You have to press a button to make it go from straight to rotated, which isn't especially easy to do on-the-fly. Straightening it takes moderate force, and there is a click as you overcome the spring pressure. Unfortunately I don't have much live-fire experience with it, since my internals have been in the shop for the better part of three months. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
romad7 75 Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 romad7: What type of stock do you have? Must be a folder type if you are shooting PGO a lot. What side does it fold on? Does it work good for you shooting it when folded and have you shot it it folded with a drum mag like the MD-20? I also like to shoot with PGO which is why I want to make some type of quick detach stock option so the folded stock is not in my way when using a MD-20 drum, the folded stock always seems to hit the drum when folded and won;t lock down. Has anyone used a left side folding adjustable length stock that will clear a MD-20 drum if it is extended when folded? No stock right now, check out my video in my for sale link below. Working on a detachable but nothing yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.