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the question I have is, why? it maybe will look cool, but without a buttstock shooting 00 buck is not going to be a enjoyable experience.

Here is a shot of the shorty Saiga 12 made by R&R for the FBI. There is a sling swivel at the rear to carry the gun.   Doug  

Heres another little edit on a pic of my S12 with the nub.  

Posted Images

Here is my work in progress. Took it to the range the other day after I got my parts back from Pauly. It worked perfectly! While I don't intend to leave it stockless, it was much easier to shoot than I thought. I have no problems "shooting from the hip" so to speak. I also can't say enough about the quality of Pauly's work!

post-34995-0-54982000-1318214471_thumb.jpg

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  • 9 months later...

Gdoc89: do you have any updated images with your tri-rail installed? I love the pistol grip only and vented shroud, I think it's a very cool look.

 

I just got a new S12 and I am doing the same thing to mine with a lot of similar parts. I don't like folding stocks too much and want to devise a quick detach stock some how so I can have both function but not have to deal with the folding stock being in the way. Some kind of t shaped slide pieces with a locking pin should do it. have you considered this option or seen anyone else who has already done this?

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Back to the OP's question..... According to that BATFE's definition:

 

 

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a

weapon designed or redesigned, made

or remade, and intended to be fired

from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use

the energy of an explosive to fire

through a smooth bore either a number

of ball shot or a single projectile for

each single pull of the trigger.

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

 

That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun. Try "DD" or "AOW", but not a shotgun.

 

This debate has been run before and the law is the law.

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A company out of Iowa is selling Saiga 12's with Pistol grip only on their website and on the gun auction site. It is being sold as a legal firearm and not AOW or SBS. They have been selling the same model for some time now.

 

Are all other pistol grip pump shotguns not considered shotguns and exempt from this law? There are a lot of them out there.

 

Is it just the Saiga 12 that has to follow this law?

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Back to the OP's question..... According to that BATFE's definition:

 

 

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a

weapon designed or redesigned, made

or remade, and intended to be fired

from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use

the energy of an explosive to fire

through a smooth bore either a number

of ball shot or a single projectile for

each single pull of the trigger.

 

http://www.atf.gov/p...tf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

 

That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun. Try "DD" or "AOW", but not a shotgun.

 

This debate has been run before and the law is the law.

 

 

Trueno, I was responding to this. Barrel length has nothing to do with what is said in this quote.

This quote says "ti's got to have a stock or it's not a shotgun." Thusly, I said, tell Mossberg, because

that makes it sound like their Persuader is illegal.

 

So, I think it has a LOT to do with his post.

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Trueno, I was responding to this. Barrel length has nothing to do with what is said in this quote.

This quote says "ti's got to have a stock or it's not a shotgun." Thusly, I said, tell Mossberg, because

that makes it sound like their Persuader is illegal.

 

So, I think it has a LOT to do with his post.

 

 

 

 

A pistol-gripped shotgun might be called a pistol-gripped shotgun by you and me, but not by ATF.

 

 

It's called "other" on a 4473.

 

t

Edited by Trueno
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Back to the OP's question..... According to that BATFE's definition:

~ snip ~

That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun.

 

Better tell Mossberg then. rolleyes.gif

 

It's called "other" on a 4473.

 

So what's your goddamned point dude?

 

nonono.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

That, under the eyes of the ATF, Yeoldetool is correct...

 

Yeoldetool: "That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun."

 

 

...and so Yeoldetool doesn't need to "tell Mossberg" anything.

 

t

Edited by Trueno
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OK, So what is this pistol grip (shown below) for then? It clearly is made to work without a stock???

 

With what has been stated this is illegal but CSS is selling them with no listing that it will make your weapon a AOW or SBS Class III weapon.

 

What gives with this info that it is illegal but is being sold?

 

And why is there no straight answer?

 

The company is Iowa selling pistol grip Saiga 12's called the Dragon has this statement listed:

"Caution: This may be illegal in your state. This does qualify as a shotgun (long gun) as the barrel length is 19" and the OAL is 28.75". BATFE - Legal. This is legal under Federal guidelines."

 

 

 

 

 

 

ati-fs%20grip.jpg

ATI TALON SAIGA PISTOL GRIP SET

SKU: TALON-GRIP SET

Saiga Talon Tactical Rear Pistol Grip with the Triton Mount System and Scorpion Recoil Pistol Grip.

 

 

-Scorpion Recoil System – Adsorbs Recoil Energy

-Scorpion Recoil Pistol Grip – Ergonomic, Sure-Grip Texture

-Recoil Impact is Absorbed – Shooting Anything from a 3” Magnum Turkey Load to a Door Breaching Load can now be Done with no Pain Being Transferred to the Shooter

-Reduces the Challenge of Reacquiring the Target by Minimizing the Muzzle Lift

-Not Affected by Chemicals

-Remains Flexible in Extreme Temperatures

-Removes Limitations from Spring and Piston Type Recoil Suppression System

 

Triton Mount System -Constructed of Military Type III Anodized, 6061 T6 Aluminum

-Securely Fasten your ATI Tactical Rear Pistol Grip with no Specialized Tools

-Angled, Self-Aligning Dovetail Locking System for Easy, Secure Installation

-Interchangeable Sling Mount Locations for Left- And Right-Handed Shooters

 

Ergonomic Design

Sure-Grip Texture

Easy Installation

No Modification of the Trigger Assembly Required for Installation of ATI’s Saiga Talon Tactical Packages

DuPont® Extreme Temperature Glass Reinforced Polymer

Manufactured in the USA

Limited Lifetime Warranty

 

Fits All Saiga Firearms Note No Modification of the Trigger Assembly Required for Installation of ATI’s Saiga Talon Tactical Packages.

ATI

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OK, So what is this pistol grip (shown below) for then? It clearly is made to work without a stock???

 

With what has been stated this is illegal but CSS is selling them with no listing that it will make your weapon a AOW or SBS Class III weapon.

 

What gives with this info that it is illegal but is being sold?

 

And why is there no straight answer?

 

The company is Iowa selling pistol grip Saiga 12's called the Dragon has this statement listed:

"Caution: This may be illegal in your state. This does qualify as a shotgun (long gun) as the barrel length is 19" and the OAL is 28.75". BATFE - Legal. This is legal under Federal guidelines."

 

 

 

 

Who stated it's illegal?

 

t

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Back to the OP's question..... According to that BATFE's definition:

 

 

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a

weapon designed or redesigned, made

or remade, and intended to be fired

from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use

the energy of an explosive to fire

through a smooth bore either a number

of ball shot or a single projectile for

each single pull of the trigger.

 

http://www.atf.gov/p...tf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

 

That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun. Try "DD" or "AOW", but not a shotgun.

 

This debate has been run before and the law is the law.

 

Yeoldetool says without a stock its a DD or AOW and this ATI pistol grip does not have a stock

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Back to the OP's question..... According to that BATFE's definition:

 

 

 

(5) The term "shotgun" means a

weapon designed or redesigned, made

or remade, and intended to be fired

from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use

the energy of an explosive to fire

through a smooth bore either a number

of ball shot or a single projectile for

each single pull of the trigger.

 

http://www.atf.gov/p...tf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

 

That means it's got to have a stock or it's NOT a shotgun. Try "DD" or "AOW", but not a shotgun.

 

This debate has been run before and the law is the law.

 

Yeoldetool says without a stock its a DD or AOW and this ATI pistol grip does not have a stock

 

That came directly from the BATFE's website! I simply copy and pasted, and gave the link. You do with it what you will.....

 

More aptly put, My comment was toward the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" part. I made NO mention of barrel length, SBS, over all length, or what YOU should do with it.

Edited by Yeoldetool
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Actually, I'm surprised that one of the gunsmith gurus we have around here hasn't chimed in with their knowledge on why Mossberg and others can sell "shotguns" with only a pistol grip and not a shoulder-able stock.

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the question I have is, why? it maybe will look cool, but without a buttstock shooting 00 buck is not going to be a enjoyable experience.

 

Yeah sounds painful to shoot...

 

here is something interesting.

 

non nfa 14" mossy 5

 

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

 

 

its not, remember, its semi auto. MAN UP!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc4sa3ptKgs&feature=plcp

Edited by saltydecimator
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Actually, I'm surprised that one of the gunsmith gurus we have around here hasn't chimed in with their knowledge on why Mossberg and others can sell "shotguns" with only a pistol grip and not a shoulder-able stock.

 

it would appear as though factory pistol gripped 500's aren't SHOTGUNS that is why they can be turned into AOW's such as the super shorty.

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right, called PGO;s pistol grip only firearms... gotta comfe from factrory without a buttstock. or never have been attached

 

Can you link us some documentation on that info? This is all I can find..... http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

Edited by Yeoldetool
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Actually, I'm surprised that one of the gunsmith gurus we have around here hasn't chimed in with their knowledge on why Mossberg and others can sell "shotguns" with only a pistol grip and not a shoulder-able stock.

Can you link us some documentation on that info? This is all I can find..... http://www.examiner....ates-new-danger

 

Question 18 on a 4473 covers this:

 

Question 18. Type of Firearm(s): Check all boxes that apply. "Other"

refers to frames, receivers, and other firearms that are not either handguns or

long guns (rifles or shotguns), such as firearms having a pistol grip that expel

a shotgun shell, or National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms.

 

So a pistol grip only shotgun from the manufacturer is an "Other" weapon, not an "Any Other Weapon." Converting it from a shotgun (has shoulder stock) to a pistol grip would be an issue.

 

Also, since a pistol grip only shotgun is not a shotgun or rifle (it's other), it can't be transferred to someone under the age of 21.

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^ya thats pretty much how i understand it.

 

the atf letters in that shockwave link have the deets, i think. you could also call that len savage guy that did the shockwave hack. he is a good guy and actually answers the phone.

 

faqs that people say aboot atf letters that arent necesarily true:

 

1- only the person who wrote the letter to the atf is legal under the letter.

 

according to savage, not true, as that wouldnt be equal protection under the law

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So If I took a Mossberg 590A1 that came with a regular sporter style butt stock and put a pistol grip on it thus removing the butt stock I would be in violation?

 

And what if I bought a Mossberg 590A1 from someone else who already changed it to be pistol grip would I be in violation for owning it even though I did not know how it came from the manufacturer?

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So If I took a Mossberg 590A1 that came with a regular sporter style butt stock and put a pistol grip on it thus removing the butt stock I would be in violation?

 

Without going through the hoops of making it an NFA weapon, that's the way I read the law. At that point you'd probably want to make it an SBS anyway. Otherwise, just buy it with the pistol grip only from the factory.

 

And what if I bought a Mossberg 590A1 from someone else who already changed it to be pistol grip would I be in violation for owning it even though I did not know how it came from the manufacturer?

 

If I was going to buy any "firearms having a pistol grip that expel a shotgun shell" I would either buy it new in box, or find out if the factory would confirm that serial number as being in the proper configuration when it was made. Better safe than sorry.

Edited by telero
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