Hammer 15 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 APPENDIX D Open and Modified Divisions 17. The unloaded gun, with its longest magazine fitted, is wholly inserted with its barrel parallel to the long edge of a rectangular box open on one long side. The internal length of the box is 1320mm (tolerance: +1mm, -0mm). The gun must not be artificially compressed in any way during the test. Open division 18. Detachable magazines accessible to a competitor during a COF must not contain more than 10 rounds at the Start Signal. However, detachable magazines with a capacity of up to 12 rounds are permitted. Magazines must not be clipped, taped or otherwise attached to any other magazine at any time. Guns with fixed magazines may have an initial load of 14 rounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 This is the same kind of attitude that makes American car racing lame. "Hey, he has better technology. No fair. let's ban it or make it useless." If nascar had started 40 years earlier they would still be stuck with model T's. For ISPC, applying the same rule to guns of the 1850's they would let you bring your henry, but only allow you to load one cartridge at a time. Ok, I am ignorant, and still talking. I am just afraid that they will ruin it before I am able to join. Do you think this is driven by compettitors who run tube guns, or more by event sponsors who make tube guns. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
going12220 125 Posted October 2, 2011 Report Share Posted October 2, 2011 (edited) look at who the sponsors are for most major shooting events and big name shooters and it's easy to see who wants to have these types of rules. I agree this and racing should be run what you brung as long as it meets safety standards. I've seen a lot of stages designed to screw with Saigas the sad part is it results in a boring stage for everyone. guess if you can't beat them on the range, beat them in the rules. Edited October 3, 2011 by going12220 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 1320mm long means your max length is 52" Well, that screws the guys running the plusWHAT!?! tubes on an auto. Seriously, have you *seen* those pictures? It's like 2 feet longer than the muzzle! 10 or 12-round mags for competition, eh, I can probably live with that, since a mag-change on a saiga is still faster than even a speed-loader on a magazine gun. Now, if I start seeing 12-14 round shotgun stages, I'm going to throw a BS flag to IPSC over the tournament organizers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 There goes the neighborhood Saigas are just getting too popular Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monsterdan 1 Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I saw attached Magazines at AREA-1 this weekend, lame ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 meaning you can't change mags? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 I have to say that rule is a bunch of bull shit and it pisses me off good thing a lot of matches are not ipsc and have their own rules. I see a lot of Saigas out there now. I remember when I had the only one in some competitions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfighteruk 6 Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) Over here in the UK there's a split & a lot of the shotgunners have formed their own OPEN series of matches - http://four4islands.org So F**K Ipsc. As far as im concerned we should be promoting new & exciting equipment ,as for banning any chest rigs & extended shotgun box mags thats just playing up to the anti gun crowd , maybe those who are writing the rules at Ipsc should quit shooting & take up bowling or some other tame sport. Im coming over to shoot some gun's in KY next week - thank god you Americans can still enjoy some fun matches ! Any one else be at Owensboro 3 gun next saturday ?? Edited October 22, 2011 by gunfighteruk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 Yeah I've been following forum posts over IPSC for a lil while. I'm not too keen on the classes in pistols or class (However it's set up) that do the race guns as I prefer a comp with "practical" pistols (Basically a pistol you could find on the street, modified or not.). I'd have to side with gunfighteruk, If it gets worse, it could signal a time where it's appropriate to part ways so that Comps with Saigas can continue. It's not our fault that there finally is a better system out there for shotguns. It's been a long time coming and now the 12 gauge detachable mag shotguns have arrived. Improvise, adapt, overcome, or get ran over by your competition. Basically this is like little league stuff, growing up I couldn't use a wood bat in our league, never mind that I knew to swing with the label up or in Ted William's (May he rest in peace) case, label down. The metal bats were so light that it drastically effected my timing. Same was true when I tried out for High School ball. The coach wouldn't let me use my wood bat. I just wanted to prove I could actually hit and it was just a timing issue. Instead his statement was to the point and he sounded like a jerk. We should be promoting new and exciting equipment. I couldn't agree more. It's not like these guys can't afford an S12 anyway. Base "sporter" model price has come down now and I've seen a retired Spetsnaz guy take a sporter model and run a drill and tear up the scenario with authority. As the song says "They see me rollin, they be hatin." And those are hater rules, pure and simple. I'd give it a season, lobby for the wrong to be corrected and if they refuse, start talking about forming your own open series of matches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager667 729 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) the retired spetsnaz guy could probably do the same thing with a single shot h&r .410 that's missing the firing pin, lol Edited October 26, 2011 by Russian Hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I bet the MKA 1919 put the fear of God into European and American shotgun makers. The Saiga was bad enough now there is another then another pretty soon tube feeders will be religated to other divisions and Open will be dominated by Mag feeders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I bet the MKA 1919 put the fear of God into European and American shotgun makers. The Saiga was bad enough now there is another then another pretty soon tube feeders will be religated to other divisions and Open will be dominated by Mag feeders. I'm actually looking forward to that. That will no doubt be a great show to watch, S12s and MKA 1919s facing off with at least 8 to 10 round mags in both loadouts. The point of an open class seems to be to display "maximum potential" and to see this rule, contradicts it. It chokes down what is actually maximum potential. All in the name of "fairness". Well I'm sorry, life is not fair. It is cold, mean and will beat you down if you let it. If they want fair then they need to check the schedule and see when the carnies are coming to town. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 If you want a 'fair' race, give everyone the same gear and support, just like the old IROC series. Otherwise, it's called 'Open' class, right? If people want to close down the 'open' class, how about we make a whole new class of competition: Unlimited. The unlimited air races have a total of 3 rules: Piston engine, propeller driven (no jets, it's the ONLY attempt to keep everyone on the same playing field); radio (so you can hear when the race starts and yell if you have trouble); and rated to +-7G (so your bird doesn't come apart in mid-air). No other limits. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 There are so many sponcered shooters now and so may sponcers that money is starting to take over the sport so it stands to reason that companies with inferior products like tube feeders would not want to give any advantage away. USPSA/IPSC is not the only game in town. I just can't wait for the MKA 1919 to show up in matches in big numbers. Also Open division is where the money is, it's not unusual for an Open Shooter to have 10k in his weapons and accessries. I'm about to drop another $300 today on my AR to upgrade it. It's going to be a great rivelry and add to the sport. It might even spur more action shotgun only matches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 Yeah but all the tube feeders I see on the televised competitions cost more out of the box than a fairly customized saiga, and about the same as an Adkal. To me a home tuned saiga and practice is more of an economic field leveler than some FN tube gun, that has been gone through by a factory "works" team. Magazines for saigas are way cheaper and more accessible to the average guy than some of the speed loading rigs I have seen for tube guns. Speed shell holders cost as much as a 10 shot AGP.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) There is money to be made with the Adkal/Saiga rivelry once one really starts! I think that also the Xrail system has people's attention now tubefeeders can go 23 rounds in the gun to start then stick a speed loader in every 4 or 5 shots and never run dry. If you ask me a fully loaded Xrail would make the weapon unwieldy but they had to do something to counter the Saiga and 1919. When inovation failed they simply changed the rules. https://www.xrailbyrci.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=8beb6355cb70aa108adc3b02ba2b1ae6&Screen=PROD&Store_Code=xrail&Product_Code=1103-0001FRB&Category_Code=xrail_remington This thing costs as much as a Saiga! And almost as much as an ADKAL 1919. Most people would simply get a Saiga or ADKAL and save some money. The point I was trying to make is that there is nothing that can be done to keep tube feeders on top in the next few years the Saiga like the ones R and R makes for example and the ADKAL 1919 would dethrone the tube feeder. It left tube feeders makers to simple have the rules changed. In my opinion. Edited November 9, 2011 by topmaul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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